G5 - Triple Tree Removal Issue & Another Question

[Groover]

I wasn't planning on doing this this year, but I started taking parts off my G5 to fix / lube /paint or replace, and one thing after another, now my bike is almost 100% disassembled  :o

That said, I'm probably going to have a million questions until I get the bike put back together. At this point, the plan is to powder coat the frame, swing arm, triple trees and then start putting things back in place.

Today I got stuck trying to remove the lower tree from the frame. I've tried to convince it to pop out the bottom by putting a piece of wood and tapping the tube with a hammer, to no luck. Am I missing something here? Shouldn't this just slide off? The "nut" is there to protect the threads, but it hasn't budged at all. Is this a situation where I may need a torch? At this point, I just soaked it with penetrating oil and I'll let it sit overnight and try again tomorrow.

Also, I took the swing arm off because the rubber boot was cracked thinking the boot would be packed with grease around the joint/knuckle, but there was no grease, just some transmission oil (I think) floating around. Should oil be in there with the shaft, or is that seal shown in the photo bad? If so, do you think it's possible to replace without opening the transmission backplate?

Please advise. Thanks for the assistance.


Triple-tree tube:




Rear of Transmission / Drive Shaft

[fotoguzzi]

your in the groove now.  

your triple should just drop out. looks pretty rusty/grimy. might be just rusted in at the bottom race. how hard did you bash with the hammer? you need new bearings at least.

normally the u-joint is not bathed in grease. how does it feel and how do the splines look for wear?

I wasn't planning on doing this this year, but I started taking parts off my G5 to fix / lube /paint or replace, and one thing after another, now my bike is almost 100% disassembled  :o

in spring? better get busy.

could you slip the fork tubes back in and jiggle it out?

[rodekyll]

Try using a big mallet and a wood block on the bare top of the post.  Like Brad says, it's crudded in there.  There's nothing structural holding it in place.  If you can invert the frame and pop it from the bottom you could either break it loose or make the top bearing fall out -- either of which could change your luck.  Don't try to save the bearings.  They're already toast.

[Groover]

Thanks Guys, I really appreciate the replies. I am indeed regretting getting this far into this project so late into the dormant season, but I'm there now so I have no choice! (and that made me lose some sleep last night  **C).

I used a big mallet with a piece of wood on the top of the shaft. I tried from top, and I also tried from the bottom (tapping the frame), and it just won't budge. I hit things pretty hard too. I'm going to go buy a propane torch today and try again this evening. If I do manage to get the lower tree off and also  the inner race of the bearing, how difficult is it to take out the outer race? Torch on the frame as well and hope for the best?

Man, I just wanted these things to slide out so I can just re-grease them, but it's looking more and more of a disaster zone the more I touch things  :'(

I think I may have the same situation on the swing arm. I would love to change all the bearings since I'm there now, but taking the old ones out is proving to be quite the challenge.

Thanks again!

[Chuck in Indiana]

I've mentioned before that if you look for trouble on an old machine you will find it.  ;D Probably you are losing too much shock with the piece of wood. A copper hammer will probably do it. If you don't have one, some aluminum or plastic instead of the wood, maybe. The bottom race?  ;D Die grinder and cut off wheel..

[Groover]

I've mentioned before that if you look for trouble on an old machine you will find it.  ;D

This should be a quote in big bold letters on the main page (actually on EVERY page) of this forum. I should have left good enough alone, but then I sit here looking at all this great work being done to old bikes (in much worst conditions than mine I should say) and I get pumped and all looks easy - it's not!

 :bow Much respect to all those whom do this all the time and successfully. It's a lot of work, and I'm not even going into the engine, transmission, drive stuff and all that good stuff.

Thanks for the tip on the hammering technique. I also asked someone at work and he also suggested I find a more firm way to hit that shaft. Supporting the frame better etc. My lawn wasn't much support...

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I used a big mallet with a piece of wood on the top of the shaft. I tried from top, and I also tried from the bottom (tapping the frame), and it just won't budge. I hit things pretty hard too. I'm going to go buy a propane torch today and try again this evening. If I do manage to get the lower tree off and also  the inner race of the bearing, how difficult is it to take out the outer race? Torch on the frame as well and hope for the best?

Man, I just wanted these things to slide out so I can just re-grease them, but it's looking more and more of a disaster zone the more I touch things  :'(

I think I may have the same situation on the swing arm. I would love to change all the bearings since I'm there now, but taking the old ones out is proving to be quite the challenge.

Thanks again!

For the stubborn ones, I use a chunk of brass and a small sledgehammer after flooding the stem and bearings with PB Blaster for a day or so. Never needed to use heat.

To remove the inner race from the stem, I use a bearing splitter supported in my bench vise:



and the same brass chunk w/hammer. Care should be taken to not destroy the metal ring and rubber dust seal under it.

The outer race is easy by comparison - a long drift to catch the edge and a ball-peen hammer usually is all it takes. Tap around the edge to drive it out evenly. Put the replacements in the freezer before installation. Again, no heat is necessary.

Swingarm bearings are likely fine, just remove the seal and inner race, clean and inspect, repack and reinstall with new seals. In the event that you do need new bearings, I find it easiest to remove them with a "blind hole bearing puller".

[Kiwi_Roy]

You should be able to get the seal out of the gearbox it's just an interference fit, I certainly wouldn't open the box unless it was off the bike, you would never get it back on again.

Hang on, you do have it off the bike, pull the box off the engine and check the seal at the clutch end also. give it a good clean and paint.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Beyond here, there be dragons..  ;D

[nobleswood]

Groover,
Yesterday I was looking for an excuse to give you a call and maybe get a ride in... Never mind. When can I come over and have a look at the project ?

[Groover]

Thanks again guys. I'm going to try the brass or aluminum chunk with a mallet this evening, and Charlie, thanks for the photos of the pullers. I think I will especially need that one that's split for the lower inner race.

I'm going to skip the torch for now then; Sometimes when I get frustrated I tend to just destroy things, so not having a large flame thrower within my reach is probably a great plan :P

To answer fotoguzzis question I missed earlier, the splines all look great. I've seen bad spline photos online, and luckily mine are good.

Kiwi_Roy... I hear there are dragons once I cross that line. Not sure if I'm going to go there this time around. I *think* I may have learned my lesson. If I open that backplate, I may end up rebuilding the engine, which I'm sure "if I look for a problem with an old machine I WILL find it!" I may change that seal though.. not sure, as long as you think it comes out easily.

In regards to the swing arm bearings; if I leave the outer race in the swing arm and I decide to powder coat, will that damage the outer race? (400+ Temps)?

Nobleswood, been wondering what you've been up to! The time you saw my G5 in the fall may very well be the last time it will ever be on the road! Just kidding, I can do this! Give me a call or text whenever you are out and about. I'm usually home in the evenings but I don't get into much serious tooling unless I have all day available to do so. So Saturdays and Sundays would be best.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

In regards to the swing arm bearings; if I leave the outer race in the swing arm and I decide to powder coat, will that damage the outer race? (400+ Temps)?

No, the outer race will be fine with the heat. Just make sure the 'coater understands that he should not blast or powdercoat them. 

[Perazzimx14]

To remove the lower bearing off the triple shaft I took a pair of side cutters and snipped the outer cage in a couple of places. Then removed the cage and rollers. This left a small groove exposed where the cage connected. Then took a puller like Charlie shows and tightened it up in the cage groove. Few taps with a mallet and the bearing race came right off.

I then split the bearing race with a dremel tool to let it spring open a bit. Then used it as a bearing driver when i put in neww bearings.

[rodekyll]

No, the outer race will be fine with the heat. Just make sure the 'coater understands that he should not blast or powdercoat them. 

Agreed, but keep in mind that 400º could expand things enough to move or drop out the races.
Also -- those are tapered roller bearings.  They're designed to go 'round and 'round, not this way-and-that in a shallow arc. The constant pressure in small areas wallows out troughs in the races and things get a notchy feeling.  If you have any excuse at all to replace these, do it.  They are cheeep to buy and easy to install.

$0.02

[racasey]

I may have missed your comments earlier in regards to removing the fork tubes.   Please forgive me if I have missed this.

Can we assume you have removed the stanchions (fork tubes) from the lower yoke, and the lower yoke is not supported on a block, and the entire force of your hammer is not being absorbed by a heavy section of tree trunk, thoughtfully placed between the hammer and the steering stem to cushion the blow.

I once tried to help a fellow on the internet who was using one of the cheap impact tools (image below) which required a hammer blow. He was trying and trying, to remove a stubborn M10 slotted head screw.  He tried and tried and finally admitted that "I'm using my best 8 oz hammer and its just not working".  He was sincere and simply did not understand physics.

Ciao,
Dick

[John A]

Use a big hammer to move things, use a small hammer to form things.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Use a big hammer to move things, use a small hammer to form things.

Good advice..  ;-T

[Groover]

Thanks for the replies. Good new, I did end up getting the lower triple off the frame tube last night. I used a large brass door hinge plate to protect the top of the tube while bashing it with a large mallet. It took some good hits, but it eventually came out. I also took the outer races out from the frame at the fork tube, and those were for sure a piece of cake to get out.

I also inspected the bearings at the swing arm, and unfortunately they do need replaced. One was actually still OK (the one on the drive shaft side), but the one of the left was pretty rusted and damaged. So off those will be (once I get the pullers Charlie linked)

There is a Harbor Freight tools in my town, so I'll grab those pullers this evening if they have them in stock.

At this point, I'm back on track to get the parts powdercoated, new head and swing arm bearings and seals and do this job right.

The head bearings were actually still OK once I got the off and could take a good look, but not anymore  :o

I should make a new thread with photos of this project, but I'm very disorganized sometimes so It's probably not gonna happen - I will certainly have case by case threads!

Thanks again for the assistance!