For the ECU experts

[ratguzzi]

Could a standard ECU be programed to do ignition only? To block all fuel injection and only do ignition with a typical older Guzzi advance curve.
So a late model motor could be used with carbs.
JB

[beetle]

Sure. The ECU doesn't know if there's injectors there or not. Just leave the fuel map as it is.

But why? Why would you want to use carbs over injection? Don't tell me they're better, because they're not.

[ratguzzi]

Do you know ANY fuel injected Guzzi that even comes close to carburated fuel mileage?
My 98 EV motor with carbs and points in it got an easy 50mpg, with an 8/33 final drive would pull smooth as silk from 30mph up in fifth gear with NO hiccups, exhaust popping, etc.
From reflashes to power commanders, been there. If the ECU/injection runs smooth, you are in the low 30s mpg. If it burps and coughs, maybe low 40s max.
JB

[Idontwantapickle]

While JB is on target there I think the fuelies make more power. I would agree that the old carb bikes ran "better", easier to drive slow in particular. Can't say the Norge is all that great fuel-wise except when the revs and power are way up the range.
Now if my Eldo could stop like a Norge............. ;D
Sorry for the hijack!
Hunter

[Kev m]

EFI should match carb mileage easily, though in many cases manufacturers take the opportunity to tune for more peak power at the same time they convert to EFI and that muddies the water.

Fwiw, my V7 regularly gets 48-55 mpg on E10.

But my B11 and Jackal both tended to get more like 40 most of the time (probably because of my right wrist).

[JeffOlson]

I, too, wish we could go back to carburetors. I know it will never happen, but I am really tired of herky-jerky, on-off throttle control at slow speed. My Ducati was the worst, but my Norge is not a lot better. I don't care about fuel economy as much as smooth ride ability.

[Idontwantapickle]

This will fix your FI woes, enough for 2 Guzzis!
http://store.schnitzracing.com/lectron-44mm-carburetors-w-power-jets/?gclid=CNDe-_qDysUCFQQWHwodK0kAcg

[Kev m]

I guess I understand why EFI throttle might have a point that is very on/off, but after owning more than half a dozen EFI bikes and riding a ton more I have no complaints. Seriously there's nothing on/off about the throttle input that can't be tamed with some clutch and throttle control.

Every single one of them started quicker and more dependably then even brand new carbureted bikes.

They've almost all ran flawlessly, maybe my B11 and the chronic pinging problem being the exception, but that was cured with a reflash.

I have no problem working on carbs, but have never found anything that really made easier or more reliable.

[rodekyll]

Like they say, just don't connect the injector and fuel pump stuff.  You can pull the fuel pump relay and fuse.  I'd leave the temp sensors because they affect timing.  Also be careful to maintain good tank venting.  Gravity flow needs are different than pump needs.

On the tangent -- my Convert's economy didn't change with efi, but the engine was bigger.

[pyoungbl]

My last tank of gas in the Stelvio gave me a bit over 41 mpg.  That was all Interstate riding so I'd say an average of 70 mph and the ambient temp was in the low 80s.  I was fully loaded after a camping trip and had the hard bags fitted.  With the 8.5 gal tank I am not filling every 75-100 miles and thus I have confidence in the mileage calculation from a single tank on that 1400 mile trip.  Colder temps = lower mpg.

I'd never want to go back to carbs, if for no other reason than being able to ride from sea level to 11,000 ft without any concern for the change in altitude.  Been there and done that.

Peter Y.

[lucian]

Oh fond memories of carbs, sticking slides, changing jets, leaky gaskets, fondling float levels, rebuild kits, ethanol sludge removal, syncing impossibilities, manual chokes, and air leaks.   No thanks :beat_horse

[Kentktk]

Throttle by wire is coming next to Guzzi and very soon.

[lucian]

Already here, cali 14

[ratguzzi]

I guess my point is we have all these mapping wizards but no one has been able to map a V11 to get the same smoothness and economy of a nice pair of 36mm round bores.
My  carburated EV motor will be back on the road soon in a 67 V700 frame. I would love any mapper to ride it and challenge them to map a fuelie to be as smooth and easily bust out 50mpg.
Hands down, I prefer an injected motor over carbs, just don't understand why they can't be tuned better.
JB

[lucian]

I think it has to do with the ecu capabilities, You wont find smoother throttle response than than the cali 14. Other than the idle fueling which I understand was intentional, only god knows why. Also others like bmw and triumph have extremely well performing F.I.

[Aaron D.]

Our Jackal and my old EV get high '40s all the time. The new Scouts are getting 50-but that's not trying to burn up tires..

[JeffOlson]

Ah, Triumph. That is true. I rode my wife's Bonnie (2013) back to back with my Norge today. That Bonnie is incredibly smooth (and so was my 2014 Thruxton). Absolutely no throttle snatchiness at low speed. The Norge is on-off at low speed, bucking and lurching. I guess the British engineers are onto something.

[Wayne Orwig]

My carbed 1994 California generally got around 40MPG. Riding style and twisting the fun handle make it better or worse.
I played with the jetting to try to get it better. No luck.
My injected 2004 EV generally gets around 40MPG. Riding style and twisting the fun handle make it better or worse.
I played with the fuel map to try get get better. No luck.
My Centauro generally got around 38MPG. I once got 55MPG while following a poky friend with a sidecar.

[Vasco DG]

My belief, backed up by research, is that most of the high consumption woes, especially on the 2V big blocks, are down to inaccurate input from the engine temperature sensor. This can be addressed, but not cured absolutely, by ensuring the sensor is getting an accurate reading and coupling this with a better map.

All of that will fall on deaf ears though so it's probably not worth pursuing. Those who like carbs are welcome to them. I saw the light a few years ago and wouldn't go back for all the tea in China! Nasty, smelly things..... :D

Pete

[beetle]

So you don't like fuel injection because of fuel economy?. Hmm.

..excuse me...Bwahahahahahah a!. Ahem. Got that off my chest.

The carby is a pretty clever device for what it does. But it cannot compete with well setup fuel injection. No amount of Luddite grunting and pointing will convince me. Got a FI bike that's thirsty? Poorly tuned or setup. Got an FI bike with jerky on/off throttle. Poorly mapped. Got a carby bike that runs great at sea level? Ride it up to 11000 feet and think again. Pete Y nailed it. Lucian gets it. Roper is on team FI.

Make no mistake, the Guzzi factory mapping is rubbish. FI is not the bugbear of crappy running. It's the application, not the technology.

"But my 8V is super thirsty". It's not the fuel injection, it's the head design. A 2V will always get better fuel economy if properly tuned. Sure, a properly mapped 8V will give you better torque and power (yes, better torque. No, the 2V does not have more low-down torque, it's just better mapped from the factory), but you must suffer the fuel usage too.

I'd put my Griso up against any carbed 2V big block. It is so smooth you'd wet yourself. Seriously. Yes, it's custom mapped. By me. But you won't get 50mpg. Not on my bike.

Now you can map a FI Guzzi for economy, but Joe The Dyno Guy won't do it. Most of the 'Wizards' seem to think most FI bikes need more fuel. Wrong. I've seen a few maps from the gurus, and quite frankly they're laughable. They modify the main fuel map, sometimes the delta, often the ignition map, but they don't go near the correction tables. This is where the possibility of making a superb map awaits. You can tweak for changes in temperature (both air and engine), air pressure, acceleration, torque, traction, gear. Wow! What can you do with a carb? Change the jet, change the float level, change the clip height. Sigh.

Fuel injection. Love it.

[jacksonracingcomau]

I'd put my Griso up against any carbed 2V big block.

..excuse me...Bwahahahahahah a!.

Game on Ringo, $5K of mine, 5K of yours, bets accepted from forum
My rules
Min 250 miles, public sealed or dirt roads, racetrack, forest trails, wherever, rain or shine
Miles travelled in van do not count

I think the point JB has made is more range than economy, last Griso I saw (with 12 or so other bikes) was pushing it after 260KM (150 add miles)
Traffic light wonder yours may be, some of us ride further.

BUT completely on topic, I do get beaten in economy game by well tuned 2V and 4V per cyl EFI bikes, just haven't seen an EFI Guzzi that does it, engine can't become more inefficient, is only the mapping shirley

[beetle]

Gee, it's easy to take a quote out of context and make stuff up. Since you seem to do it all the time, I'm not going to bother with you anymore. Back on the ignore list for you, troll.

[pauldaytona]

The low revs smoothness is partly a mapping thing, and maybe a part in it lies in that with low revs, the opening from the butterfly is very small, giving a tiny opening, and there the air and fuel don't mix that well. The older marelli efi had the injector near the butterfly, new models have the injector near the head, that will be for a reason.
The efi that guzzi uses on all but the 8v, originates from 1990. The cali 1400 and one TB v7 have a fundamental different system, with map sensor.
 Efficiency isn't top priority with a small manufacturer. First it should pass regulations, the it should drive as good as it goes, and after that, if there is time the might give any attention to economy.
I don't know why multiple Italian makes start using other then Marelli, but I see it happen more and more.
And Euro4 is coming, all new models from 2016 on should pass, not only more stringent emissions, but also ABS, noise and some more things. And in 2017 this is also for older models that are still produced. Thats what Piaggio hast to think about and act now.  

[molly]

Ah, Triumph. That is true. I rode my wife's Bonnie (2013) back to back with my Norge today. That Bonnie is incredibly smooth (and so was my 2014 Thruxton). Absolutely no throttle snatchiness at low speed. The Norge is on-off at low speed, bucking and lurching. I guess the British engineers are onto something.

My Triumph 1050 Tiger Sport gives no better fuel consumption or throttle response than my 1200 2v Sport. I admit the Guzzi's mapping has been set up by myself but if I could get the Guzzi twenty more horses there would be no contest if  I had to sell one of them.



I think it is more difficult to get the FI right on a air cooled motor due to the engine temperature fluctuations and if I was brave enough I would like to try running my 2v motor without the inputs from the various sensors, thus getting back to a more carb based set up. But since it is running sweat with the edits I have done the incentive isn't really there.

[mtiberio]

This will fix your FI woes, enough for 2 Guzzis!
http://store.schnitzracing.com/lectron-44mm-carburetors-w-power-jets/?gclid=CNDe-_qDysUCFQQWHwodK0kAcg

UGG, Lectron carbs, the idle circuit will be correct about 2 days a year... Great, if you are going to the salt flats...

[Bill Havins]

... inaccurate input from the engine temperature sensor....

....I think it is more difficult to get the FI right on a air cooled motor due to the engine temperature fluctuations....

Hmmm.  There's a bit of a theme developing there.  And I agree.  This may be the biggest issue affecting fuel economy on an otherwise well-tuned stock engine.

Throttle "snatchiness" at lower RPMs is a different issue, IMHO.  I wonder if it is due more to air leaks around the seals in the throttle bodies (sure helped mine), combined with a need to precisely tune the throttle bodies and the TPS.  And then there is the need to precisely tune the air-fuel ratio at idle (on those ECUs where it can be adjusted).  But these things are not as simple as changing jets in carbs, so they are much more difficult to do in your garage at home.

Bill

[lucian]

What could be easier than plugging in a laptop and loading a proper map? Still a little trial and error, but a lot less messy. Syncing way easier with the right tool too. And once it's right your done pretty much for good. With this ethanol shit , I could care less if I ever see another carb bowl full of monkey spunk. As for mileage there are plenty of 750 cc bikes that will get 50 plus a gallon, but do you really want to tour on one two up? I suppose if gas goes up to $5 a gallon I may feel different, but for now I'm happy the 35 -4o mpg and the performance of an 8v.

[canuguzzi]

Some of it might have to do with electronics vs jets in that carbs are mechanical things and something you can put your hands to and swap out, change or whatever. So long as you're in the same place most of the time, they are not all that difficult to get spot on and to get running smoothly. The ECU stuff is like voodoo to a lot of people, especially since that can't just buy a kit and try different things.

Messing with jets? Sure, why not. Mess with a map? Where to start and goof it up and go where from there?

I too like FI because you take along trip, don't worry about altitude changes but the real deal is the map support you get right here. Without it, how many of us would be pissing in the wind and dealing with less than mediocre factory maps?

I can see where he's coming from.

[lazlokovacs]

I don't get the carbs v FI animosity... some very valid points from some very knowledgeable people from both sides of the debate on this page.

personally, I find it an undeniable positive of FI to not always be dealing with (ie spilling and breathing) petrol, measuring pump spray flow, watching brand new floats fill with fuel etc.

But I also find it completely unacceptable that motorbikes are sold in such an ugly state of tune as is the case with a whole generation of guzzi FI bikes.

I've tuned the hell out of my CalVin, shared the maps with a few members on here, and its definitely better, but I can't say I'm fully satisfied.

I know its down to emissions etc, but I really think the factory should do better with their maps. A proper factory map would obviously be the best of all possible worlds.

Rant over. But bright blue headers everywhere annoy me. And the stock Calvin map is truly atrocious!!!!

[rodekyll]

I played my map at the keno table and won.