For the ECU experts

[jacksonracingcomau]

I don't get the carbs v FI animosity... some very valid points from some very knowledgeable people from both sides of the debate on this page.

personally, I find it an undeniable positive of FI to not always be dealing with (ie spilling and breathing) petrol, measuring pump spray flow, watching brand new floats fill with fuel etc.

But I also find it completely unacceptable that motorbikes are sold in such an ugly state of tune as is the case with a whole generation of guzzi FI bikes.

I've tuned the hell out of my CalVin, shared the maps with a few members on here, and its definitely better, but I can't say I'm fully satisfied.

I know its down to emissions etc, but I really think the factory should do better with their maps. A proper factory map would obviously be the best of all possible worlds.

Rant over. But bright blue headers everywhere annoy me. And the stock Calvin map is truly atrocious!!!!

And I think that's full circle, what JB said in first place, for him it is easier and quicker to fit carbs, definitely was for me too
But not for a minute do I believe mapping EFI as good as carbs is impossible, certainly cars and other bikes have been sorted years ago.
Hope you get yours sussed and prove the point, get it running well and hopefully use less fuel doing so.
If it is the engine temp sensor that causes all the problems, as Pete says, fudging it to stay in "hot" mode may be simple answer with drawback of carb type cold running, my bike tells me when it's cold, I don't see that as issue, warm it up gently before giving it berries.


Mechanical switch to cold map just to start it ? Just like enrichener on carbs. Mode in current speak

See you in UK soon

MH

[canuguzzi]

How many of us could do much more with guzzidiag than load a map someone else graciously contributed? I bet not many.

A carb? Buy a kit, try it out, follow a mechanical process and there is always a clear path to return. The part of loading a map isn't difficult, it is the chance that some errant electronic mess over gets in the way and you are finished. Maybe that isn't possible and working with IT for a while where peeps run enterprise data centers I know that electronics aren't AI out to get you, how many truly trust that the ECU isn't their answer?

When someone can tune their carb'd bike to run as good as they want and then get faced with an FI bike that just won't and even when "tuned" is more of a band-aid rather than a proper design, it's hard to convince them Fi is all that much better.

When it comes to MG bikes, how after so long can they not get it right from the factory? It would be one thing is one of them came out all fully baked but so far, which one is even close?

[beetle]

The days of the carb wiz are over, and we're entering the era of the electron. Accept it.

Soon all new bikes will be ride-by-wire, and overcoming the requirements of microprocessor controlled 'demand centres' will be even trickier.

You can't brick an ECU with GuzziDiag. Believe me, I've tried. The good thing is if your latest map is a fizzer, go back one and try again. It takes 3 minutes to flash a map.

Yes, Guzzi maps are shite. At least some of us are willing to help, instead of just bitching.

[cruzziguzzi]

It always elicits a sardonic groan from me whenever someone expresses or merely hints at a preference for a thing on the internet and quicker than frig, another individual interprets it as an attack on their personal and self defined contrasting preferences. I see this daily on firearms forums, IMDB and other vehicle specialty forums to which I belong.

I was interested in finding whether or not the ECU would hiccup without feedback from things like TPSs and the like but no - it becomes the usual: "only a troglodyte would think other than I do!" and arguments supporting the positions.

I like both systems, I'm working on my second and third Holley TBI (self-learning) now in place of 4 bbls - Scout 345, IHC 392 and GMC 396 - mostly for the ability to let them sit as I do and that I work all of them from here in Phoenix up to nearly 8,000 feet plus. I can still in a pinch plant a mothballed carb on them in 40 minutes if it comes to that, ever.

Guzzis? I'd rather have the carbs and point of fact, a single one eventually.

Fuel feeds by gravity - no pumps to fail or blow lines off nor hidden pumps and sundry bits tucked in a "ship-in-a-bottle" fashion within the tank. None of the fueling band-aides as coping with my Calvin has presented and no cause for me to learn technology I'm simply not interested in in the form of lap-top tweaking. My experience with carbs is that I never touch them once either factory settings are confirmed or as in the case of my Spot 1100, the best known alternative is effected. In its case, the correction was in fact alternative jetting tied to the bars from the factory. No leaks - no tweaks since 95. Computers have made fueling eminently easier for me in one aspect - alternative settings are nearly always known and a couple clicks away on the internet.

I like carbs on bikes... all: gravity, vacuum, restriction and velocity. Much like a world of add, subtract, multiply and divide while avoiding the mental fogs of trigonometry and her even uglier sisters.

For everyone that says it's all sausages and flowers to simply plug in a computer - I say the same about repairs effected with ball point pen components and leatherman tools when it becomes necessary. I'm glad there are folks out there supporting modern technology and its manipulation by the masses - just don't take other's outlook that in fact for us, carbs are a simpler, more easily understood and happily coped with alternative.

I figure as noted above that once Geese are water cooled the Fi glitches will disappear and I too will be happy with it.

Push the fuel - pull the fuel? They're just different ways to do the same thing, not lifestyle attacks.

Todd.

[beetle]

Another Luddite who cant face reality. Carbs are history. I don't care whether you think I'm attacking your lifestyle or not. You're the same as that lot who don't like the new Guzzi's. You're irrelevant. The 'old' Guzzi's aren't coming back. Carbs aren't coming back. Get over it.

[pauldaytona]

How many of us could do much more with guzzidiag than load a map someone else graciously contributed? I bet not many.

A carb? Buy a kit, try it out, follow a mechanical process and there is always a clear path to return.
When someone can tune their carb'd bike to run as good as they want

We made Guzzidiag nearly two years ago, I'v e seen more people busy with it here then talk about jets. It's new for all of us, and we are learning, and the aim is that a lot more people learn and understand what is happening. Even if you never touch a map, you can learn from it. You can learn why things are as they are, what to expect, and what isn't perfect.

Yeh right, some people put in another jet, but who really understands carbs here? 

[Vasco DG]

Very few Paul. The usual answer given to any carb problem is to go bigger on main which is about as useful as milking the tits on a bull.

Pete

[molly]

I can see both sides of the argument. FI is certainly a step forward when it comes to tuning but doesn't seem to improve fuel consumption or throttle response greatly.
With FI now the norm regulators have been able to tighten further emission standards thus making it even more difficult to get an air cooled engine to perform in the way it did with carbs.
I know some of us can play the Guzzidiag fiddle well but for others it must be frustrating when the jerkiness of FI becomes annoying.
The possible way forward for Guzzi is to have switchable mapping like other manufacturers rather than trying to produce one map to suit the worldwide customer base.

[cruzziguzzi]

Another Luddite who cant face reality. Carbs are history. I don't care whether you think I'm attacking your lifestyle or not. You're the same as that lot who don't like the new Guzzi's. You're irrelevant. The 'old' Guzzi's aren't coming back. Carbs aren't coming back. Get over it.

Here's exactly what I was saying. Fella signs on looking to poke folks in the eye. Bug is searching for a way to twist a post to suit a pre-conceived argument. Ad Hominem, thy name is insec.. er, beetle
No one's expecting nor for that matter - as far as I know - pining for a return to carbs on manufactured bikes. Most simply want Fi to work without tweaks excepting performance increases. Others like the notion of cobbing carbs onto modern bikes for personal experience reasons.

I understand your perception of "irrelevant" as regards the march of design and technology if I(we) were actually expecting retroactive design/manufacturing. We're not, just many of us don't care to take on the new tech just to commute/tour with confidence.

I applaude and enjoy a well thought out Fi as well as the modern takes on ignition and valve actuation - complexity be damned - I just want it to work to the point that I don't need to be involved in post manufacturing development when the product is sold to me at full consumer pop. If I need to invest time and money in work or resources just to get it to behave - I expect a serious consideration at buy-in.

To date, 100% of the problems I've had with ECU/FI... fueling/ignition has been 3 MGs. This after untold mechanically/electronically fuel injected vehicles from the 70's till today. Not one single poorly presented product (for me) other than the Guzzis and that even includes a couple three 5.7 Olds diesels.

Todd.

[JeffOlson]

^ I agree. Fortunately, I got my new Norge for several thousand off list. Plus I received another couple thousand from my insurance company for a minor tip over in my driveway (a few scratches, almost all of which are invisible to my old eyes). So, I suppose I have a bit of financial room to wiggle.

Still, it would be nice not to have to fiddle with a new bike just to get it to run smoothly while commuting.

(Our two new Triumphs have run very smoothly from day one, no fiddling required.)

[Kev m]

But how many of these supposed EFI problems are REAL? And how many of those are self-inflicted?

I mean it seems like every guy you talk to starts from the assumed position that every bike is too lean from the factory when in fact many parts of the map are rich. And the lean points may be hotter than how carbs were tuned (and that's on purpose), but is the heat an actual problem to the metal and oil of the bike or just a potential annoyance to the rider.

And throttle snatchyness, or surging? I've heard reports about both on other's bikes that I've also owned similar models, but not experienced it.

Was it something different about their bike? Or was it misperception of something else?

Was it really the EFI and not a bad cable adjustment?

And then people open air boxes, and change exhausts and how many blame problems on the EFI?

[canuguzzi]

We made Guzzidiag nearly two years ago, I'v e seen more people busy with it here then talk about jets. It's new for all of us, and we are learning, and the aim is that a lot more people learn and understand what is happening. Even if you never touch a map, you can learn from it. You can learn why things are as they are, what to expect, and what isn't perfect.

Yeh right, some people put in another jet, but who really understands carbs here?  

Don't take me wrong, I like FI but I can just see the other side of the equation, where Ratguzzi is coming from and understand why some people prefer a carb over FI. Me? I'd rather not have to concern myself with much of it unless it needs attending to. I like riding not wrenching so there FI rules for me.

What is true though is that the more electronics become part of the motorcycle in general, the greater the chance the typical rider won't be able to do much more than wait for the tow truck to take it into the dealer. That might not apply to loading a new map but I think it does apply to just about everything else.

Perhaps the expectations are out of sync with the reality and there is only so much FI can do yet slight popping drives some people crazy even as we all know by now, it does no harm and isn't a performance issue.

I'll gladly load a new Map for the Norge 8v, not because I'm unhappy with current running but because its interesting to see the changes. One thing for sure, never was there a time when getting a new jet kit was big smile, rip open the box because it was going to be fun time. Load up a new map and instant gratification, hopefully and as you said, if not go back. That isn't something easily done with carbs no matter what.

Now about that oil thread... :BEER:

[Chuck in Indiana]

Yeh right, some people put in another jet, but who really understands carbs here?

I *think* I know a fair amount about them.. after all, I've been dealing with them for over 50 years on airplanes, cars, and bikes.
I've still not ridden an injected Guzzi that was as smooth as well set up carbs. It's a subtle thing, like digital compared to analog music, but injection feels harsh for lack of a better word.. to me. This is especially true right off idle, and I'm only guessing that the TPS maybe isn't as accurate at low mv settings? Dunno. Now, my 07 Norge was downright snatchy down low, but that was before Guzzidiag and better maps were available.
It's certainly nothing worth arguing over, though.. ;D

[Xlratr]

It took me a long time to get my Stelvio set up so that I can roll on from a closed throttle in stop and go traffic without having to use the clutch. So while I appreciate the wonderful theoretical possibilities of FI, all those people who say that carbs were smoother do have a point (I'm not talking about efficiency or fuel economy). My T3 is so smooth from such low revs, it's a joy in traffic.
But I wonder if it's just a question of fueling. I used to have an R100R about 15 years ago, but when I rode a friend's R90S I was amazed how much more relaxed his bike was. Both had carbs, but I believe mine had a 40% lighter clutch and flywheel combination. Modern riders (and magazines!) put a lot of value on acceleration figures and you don't find so many heavy flywheels anymore. It depends on what you like, but maybe that's a pity.
So maybe it's not only carbs vs FI, but the whole way older bikes used to be built?
Ah, the good old days! ☺

John



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[rodekyll]

You're touching on something that bothers me about these discussions -- the comparativeness of the technologies.  If we all had the same bike and the only difference was the efi/carb variation, would the performance and economy statements still be 'true'?  Can we expect a carbbed 750cc ambo with its relatively heavy flywheel and 4-speed to perform the same as an 1100cc Jackal with a 5-speed and efi and v/v?

If we made a list of the things a carb does v the things efi does, the mechanisms by which they are dialed in and the parts involved, I think I could show that they are the same, but different.  In my mind I don't see the differences.  They are just different ways of doing the same things.

[JeffOlson]

^ "Relaxed" is exactly what I want when riding around town. No bucking or lurching, no riding the clutch, no need to maintain high revs...

[beetle]

To date, 100% of the problems I've had with ECU/FI... fueling/ignition has been 3 MGs. This after untold mechanically/electronically fuel injected vehicles from the 70's till today. Not one single poorly presented product (for me) other than the Guzzis and that even includes a couple three 5.7 Olds diesels.

Todd,

I agree with you 100%. Guzzi has a bad rep when it comes to FI. Pardon me if I feel that Guzzi's mapping issues should not be turned into a FI hate-fest. As per usual, this thread has gone off track. This forum is rife with thread drift.

What got my goat was the ridiculous belief that carbs have better fuel economy than FI. Bullocks! Carbs can be made to run rich just like FI. FI can be tweaked to get excellent economy. Some of the guys using my maps in their Griso's are reporting as much as 49 mpg. So, no, carbs are not better than FI. It's utter rubbish.

[ratguzzi]

Todd,

I agree with you 100%. Guzzi has a bad rep when it comes to FI. Pardon me if I feel that Guzzi's mapping issues should not be turned into a FI hate-fest. As per usual, this thread has gone off track. This forum is rife with thread drift.

What got my goat was the ridiculous belief that carbs have better fuel economy than FI. Bullocks! Carbs can be made to run rich just like FI. FI can be tweaked to get excellent economy. Some of the guys using my maps in their Griso's are reporting as much as 49 mpg. So, no, carbs are not better than FI. It's utter rubbish.

Really? Most injected V11 EV Guzzis are low 40s, a couple claim mid 40s. Many are in the 30s. You have the rarest at 49.
I started this post and I prefer FI over carbs, I agree they are better, no argument there but I haven't ridden an FI yet that could pull smooth as silk in 5th at 30mph up to speed and still get 50+ mpg consistently as my EV motor in my raT-3 that I switched to 36mm carbs. And with a very accurate speedo.  Plus, two twists of the throttle, hit the starter and I am am up and running.
I am building a traveling Guzzi right now and I want the same 50 mpg my carbed EV motor got, if it can be mapped and run as silky smooth with injection, I will be there immediately.
JB

[Kiwi Dave]

But how many of these supposed EFI problems are REAL? And how many of those are self-inflicted?

I mean it seems like every guy you talk to starts from the assumed position that every bike is too lean from the factory when in fact many parts of the map are rich. And the lean points may be hotter than how carbs were tuned (and that's on purpose), but is the heat an actual problem to the metal and oil of the bike or just a potential annoyance to the rider.

And throttle snatchyness, or surging? I've heard reports about both on other's bikes that I've also owned similar models, but not experienced it.

Was it something different about their bike? Or was it misperception of something else?

Was it really the EFI and not a bad cable adjustment?

And then people open air boxes, and change exhausts and how many blame problems on the EFI?

 :+1

[beetle]

But how many of these supposed EFI problems are REAL? And how many of those are self-inflicted?

As per usual, the voice of reason.

I mean it seems like every guy you talk to starts from the assumed position that every bike is too lean from the factory when in fact many parts of the map are rich. And the lean points may be hotter than how carbs were tuned (and that's on purpose), but is the heat an actual problem to the metal and oil of the bike or just a potential annoyance to the rider.

I think I love you. The maps are built to meet Euro3 (or whatever the latest standard is), and that means meeting emissions. So that means running at stoic and the how the bike feels to the rider be damned. Heat is pretty good for the oil when it's hovering around 100C (212F), but the rider might cry boo-hoo.

And throttle snatchyness, or surging? I've heard reports about both on other's bikes that I've also owned similar models, but not experienced it.

Was it something different about their bike? Or was it misperception of something else?

Was it really the EFI and not a bad cable adjustment?

And then people open air boxes, and change exhausts and how many blame problems on the EFI?

Aye. The number of people who screeched to me about how crap their FI Guzzi rides only to tell me their throttle cables have a heap of slack, the throtte bodies aren't balanced, they have pulled the lid off their airbox, stuck in a rock strainer filter and have a massively loud open exhaust is beyond a joke.

[Vasco DG]

There is also the fact that a large number of FI bikes simply aren't set up right.

Even before I became a convert to the wonders of remapping I would find that the vast majority of bikes that had been serviced elsewhere, especially W5AM equipped machines would be set up completely wrong! Even now, nine years after Guzzi started using the W5AM I'm still getting bikes coming in that have never had the TB's balanced correctly or various bits that shouldn't be fiddled with have been fiddled with.

You can't blame anything to do with the bike for poor running if it isn't tuned properly. End of story. The same is just as true for a bike with points and carburetors.

Pete

[beetle]

Really? Most injected V11 EV Guzzis are low 40s, a couple claim mid 40s. Many are in the 30s. You have the rarest at 49.

Really. The 8V head design means it will never be able run as economically as a 2V head and still maintain smoothness. I could make one get 60mpg, but it would be a bitch to ride.

I started this post and I prefer FI over carbs, I agree they are better, no argument there but I haven't ridden an FI yet that could pull smooth as silk in 5th at 30mph up to speed and still get 50+ mpg consistently as my EV motor in my raT-3 that I switched to 36mm carbs. And with a very accurate speedo.  Plus, two twists of the throttle, hit the starter and I am am up and running.

My Griso will pull as smooth as silk from 30mph in 5th, but it would not get 50mpg. It's taken me a long time and I'm quite anal about my personal map, but you can't have both with the 8V.

I am building a traveling Guzzi right now and I want the same 50 mpg my carbed EV motor got, if it can be mapped and run as silky smooth with injection, I will be there immediately.
JB

I'd like to help, but I'd need access to your bike for a week or so. Since I'm across the bloody big pond, no can do. If your willing to do some AFR logging and have the time, I could probably get you what you want.

[56Pan]

(snipped)
Really. The 8V head design means it will never be able run as economically as a 2V head...
(snipped)

Is this due to the 8V head moving so much more air that it takes extra fuel to make a stable/smooth burn? If so, I'm happy to pay for extra fuel for my 8V engine.  Not a problem.

[beetle]

Yep. The large valve overlap and head design allows the incoming charge to transit the combustion chamber mostly unmolested.

[jacksonracingcomau]

quote
I am building a traveling Guzzi right now and I want the same 50 mpg my carbed EV motor got, if it can be mapped and run as silky smooth with injection, I will be there immediately.
JB

I'd like to help, but I'd need access to your bike for a week or so. Since I'm across the bloody big pond, no can do. If your willing to do some AFR logging and have the time, I could probably get you what you want.

Slightly contradicts

My belief, backed up by research, is that most of the high consumption woes, especially on the 2V big blocks, are down to inaccurate input from the engine temperature sensor. This can be addressed, but not cured absolutely, by ensuring the sensor is getting an accurate reading and coupling this with a better map.

Pete

But if it can be done, sounds like JB wants in
He is in a position to judge with 2 same engines
1 EFI , 1 carbed
No-one else's opinion is relevant, his apple with his other apple. His right wrist
I look forward to result, so do others I'm sure.

[rodekyll]

If this is supposed to be an 'all things being equal' comparison of economy with respect to carbs v injection, the issue gets muddied with 2v v 4v, small, medium, large valves, displacement, final ratios, etc.  For an equal comparison you need to look at the same platform one way and the other.  So comparing an 850t to a griso isn't really fair.  JB's got an opportunity to document apples and apples.

Also, there are more things a mfgr needs to consider than the optimum fuel economy or perfect transitions for every throttle opening.  Sometimes things like the epa get in the way.



carry on

[ratguzzi]

I have a bias. I have ridden close to 600, 000 miles carburated and only 150, 000 injected on Guzzis.
Fuel injection rocks on wrist response but carburated wins on real world performance. Not quarter mile, riding thru life performance. Based on my such little experience.
JB

[beetle]

Who's talking about quarter mile performance or outright power? Not me. There's a nitwit or two who are like stuck records, blinded by their ignorance  and ego, however, their hysterical ravings don't make a lick of difference.


JB, you and I will have to agree to disagree.

End.

[ratguzzi]

Who's talking about quarter mile performance or outright power? Not me. There's a nitwit or two who are like stuck records, blinded by their ignorance  and ego, however, their hysterical ravings don't make a lick of difference.


JB, you and I will have to agree to disagree.

End.

I am not sure I understand the disagreement. I prefer fuel injection. Do we disagree on that? I only wish I could get carburated smoothness and economy.
I am not a retard. Fuel, ratio, etc. Carbs with tapered needles offer a wide range of exacting ratios per the taper and throttle depth. Why can't modern ecus duplicate this?
Just asking is all.
Please be careful of the mirror when you utter "nitwit"!!
Slow down and explain to me why a ECU can't be programmed to duplicate a carburetor.
You forget that I PREFER injection. Just wish it could be dialed in to work as smoothly as carbs and be mpg friendly. Like we had 30 years ago,
Again, I PREFER fuel injection!
I don't want to disagree!

[canuguzzi]

In going through this thread I'm wondering if the design of the 8v Guzzi simply can't be made to run with all the attributes commonly wanted. Prior to my 8V Norge, everything but a few were carb'd, the few remainder had FI.

My V-Strom DL1000 was notorious for ECU/fueling problems, so much so that Suzuki was replacing the ECUs under warranty and beyond because maps getting loaded couldn't fix the problems they had, it took a new ECU. Luckily, Suzuki provided me with a new ECU which transformed the bike into something usable.

I can't really complain about the Norge 8V, even as it came fresh from the dealer, it ran well with only a hint of reluctance to rev, more like it had resistance in a throttle cable sort of thing. The last map I got here cleaned that up so either my standards aren't as high as others other I don't know the difference.

My 8V Norge runs well, is plenty smooth and while the throttle seems more sensitive than the factory map, even idle up around town isn't a snatchy thing. Maybe my bike is a fluke?