Reverse gear shift pattern, LM2...

[Dukedesmo]

So my 'new' LM2 has the conventional (1 down, 4 up) gearshift pattern and most people would be happy with that, however I have been using a 'reverse' (1 up, 5 down) pattern on my bikes for many years and whilst I have never had a problem adapting when riding other peoples bikes etc. I would like to convert the Guzzi to shift the same way as my other bikes.
 
Now I am also looking at maybe fitting some more rearset footrests and so would combine the shift pattern change with that but I don't know of anything readily available to reverse the shift.

So before I get into some 'engineering' does anyone know of an easy/best way to achieve a reverse shift pattern on an LM2?

[Vasco DG]

Yup. There were some models that used a reverse shift drum. Eldos? Charlie will know.

Pete

[mtiberio]

yes, an eldo shift drum can turn your pattern around...

[Dukedesmo]

OK, so is this a straightforward replacement? Part still available new or reliant on ebay etc.?

[Triple Jim]

I'm the same here, I've used a reversed pattern for 35+ years.  I chose to modify the shift linkage on my Mille, to avoid having to do internal work to the transmission.  If you think you might want to do it that way, I'll post a photo or two.  It works very well.

[Dukedesmo]

I'd be interested in any ways of doing it. Changing the shift drum would be a big job so if an easy linkage fix was available I'd definitely be interested.

BTW I just downloaded a pic of an Eldo and can see why it needs a reverse drum to achieve a conventional shift pattern because of the forward gear pedal.

[Vasco DG]

Now, magic/faerie dust isn't available. Solid engineering is. No, no new parts available unless someone like Harpers has some NOS.

Pulling the box isn't too difficult and it will give you the chance to shim it properly and re seal it. While its out you can address the clutch issues too.

Pete

[Triple Jim]

The first photo shows the overall setup.  I made an adapter plate that mounts under the foot peg bracket, and creates a new pivot point in front of the original one.  The thin headed bolt threads into the original pivot boss.  I copied the original shift lever, as far as the pivot, including a sintered bronze bushing pressed in, and recesses for the two O-rings that keep grease in and water out.  The lever is 304 stainless, which polishes nicely and mimics the original chrome fairly well.  The lever on the transmission shaft is an original that Curtis Harper was kind enough to dig up for me, and I shortened it.  I was careful to keep the overall ratio the same as it originally was, so lever travel and force was not changed.

The second photo shows the adapter plate a little better.

[Dukedesmo]

Thanks, very interesting although it does move the whole assembly further forward but a shorter pedal would allow the footrest to stay where it is.

Maybe a similar pivot mod with a rearset and linkage could also work?

As for the shift drum, Harpers are showing stock but a mod like yours saves much work by not having to strip the gearbox.   ;-T

[Triple Jim]

Thanks, very interesting although it does move the whole assembly further forward but a shorter pedal would allow the footrest to stay where it is.

The position of the foot peg and the shift peg are identical to stock.  The lever is shorter, but the arm lengths maintain the original ratio.

I'm not sure how much work it saved, but I hate to open up a transmission that's working perfectly.  Also, it can be returned to stock very quickly by reinstalling the original parts that I kept in a ziplock bag.

[Dukedesmo]

The position of the foot peg and the shift peg are identical to stock.  The lever is shorter, but the arm lengths maintain the original ratio.

OK so footpeg stays where it is so you used a shorter pedal but altered the rearwards arm length to keep the ratio?

I like the setup as it is simple ,avoids open-gearbox (and probably wallet!) surgery and is easily reversible.  ;-T 

[Triple Jim]

OK so footpeg stays where it is so you used a shorter pedal but altered the rearwards arm length to keep the ratio?

That's pretty much correct.  The location of the shift peg was kept original.  The lengths of the three arms and the location of the pivot were then calculated to keep the ratio stock, while putting the pivot points in reasonable positions for the vertical link.

I didn't experiment with non-stock overall ratios because the Guzzi transmission takes a fair amount of lever force to change gears, at least compared to other transmissions I've experienced.  I wouldn't mind less lever travel, but I didn't want to increase the required force even more.

[Bromanking]

I was used to stomp & go shifting from my race bikes and had my Ducatis set up that way. When I got my 96 Sport it was of course the opposite, so we replaced the shift drum ( with an Eldo ONE ). I like it much better that way. Given the clunkiness of the Guzzi transmission, I think it works much better reversed.

 

[Triple Jim]

Given the clunkiness of the Guzzi transmission, I think it works much better reversed.

I absolutely agree...  my occasional missed 2nd to 3rd shift ended as soon as I reversed the pattern.

[Dukedesmo]

I absolutely agree...  my occasional missed 2nd to 3rd shift ended as soon as I reversed the pattern.

 ;D  I have just been out for a 'shakedown' run, having done some service/maintenance/upgrades and I did notice an occasional 'extra' neutral stuck there in between 2nd & 3rd gear.

As you say, shifting down should make it easier to get a clean shift - 'project reverse shift' is about to begin...     ;-T

[Triple Jim]

If I were taking the transmission apart anyway for reasons like Vasco DG mentioned, I'd probably change the drum and make it relatively permanent.  I'll be interested to see what you decide to do.  I've done three bikes so far.  Here's my DT100's reversed shifter, including the change to move the controls rearward.  The shift lever used to aim forward from the transmission shaft, and had the peg directly on it .

[Vasco DG]

;D  I have just been out for a 'shakedown' run, having done some service/maintenance/upgrades and I did notice an occasional 'extra' neutral stuck there in between 2nd & 3rd gear.

As you say, shifting down should make it easier to get a clean shift - 'project reverse shift' is about to begin...     ;-T

If it's missing gears shimming the selector drum is a far better way of curing the problem. If you're going to do that swapping the drum for an upside-downey can be done at the same time. Far better sollution than just banging a poorly set up box through the gears with more force. That way lies rounded dogs, bent forks and a bent fork shaft.

Pete

[Bromanking]

Yeah.....we shimmed mine when we changed the shift drum. It's possible that's why it shifts better. The bike was almost new when we did it.

[RinkRat II]

 Triple Jim, A most elegant and simple solution. My hat is off to you, nice work! ;-T

     Paul  :BEER:

[Triple Jim]

Thank you, Paul.  It was kind of fun to do once, but I'd hate to have to do it again.   :D

[Dukedesmo]

OK, so been working on this today and have made a bracket to use with some Tarozzi rearsets that I bought - bracket sits behind the footrest bracket and also bolts to the old gear lever pivot to hold it all solid, it's 5mm plate so is plenty strong enough.

Had to cut, flip and re-weld the Tarozzi lever/pivot to reverse the action which combined using the forwards pivot point reverses the action, kept all the levers the same length as the original Tarozzi setup to get the same ratio (I did try the Tarozzi first and it was OK).

All the tie-rods are makeshift at the moment, I will make new ones with proper rod-end bearings once I've established the lengths, this will help remove some of the 'slop'.

It is working however the shift action is quite stiff, I think due to the flex/angle of the extension that I have had to fit to the arm attached to the gearbox shifter shaft.

What I need is a straight, rather than dog-legged lever. I tried one from a Ducati as it is straight and the right length but the splined hole is too big to fit the shaft - I see in Triple Jim's pic that he has a straight lever and that is what I would like to try.

I could cut/weld the original but I'd rather not do that if the correct part is available - anyone know where I could find one, what bike it would come from?

Some pics,

The setup;



Close-up;



Makeshift extension that flexes and is at the wrong angle which makes the action stiff;



Type of lever I am looking for (but to fit a Guzzi, on this one the splined hole is too big);

 

[Triple Jim]

It's looking good so far.  Your answer lies in my post above:  I got the transmission lever from Curtis Harper.  He dug up a straight one from some Guzzi or another, and I shortened it to make the ratio correct.

Did you calculate the overall ratio, taking into account all the lever lengths?  If not, you may have altered it from the original ratio.  Now's the time to fix it if you need to, before you finalize the transmission lever length, for example.

[Dukedesmo]

Not actually done any calculations on the ratio. The only thing I have changed (from the Tarozzi setup) is to flip the lever that connects to the transmission lever and by cutting it off and welding back at 180 degrees I did lose around 3mm from the length due to the cut, this will make a difference.

Depending on what I can come up with for the transmission lever, I maybe able to get that back with the length of it - as mentioned earlier the existing ratio makes for a long travel but also a heavy action, it would be nice to both shorten and lighten but I'm afraid that's not possible and I don't really want to increase either.

I think my main problem is the angle at which the transmission lever is in relation to the sweep/motion of the Tarozzi lever. They are fighting each other making it very stiff, especially on the upwards motion.

I'm tempted to cut up the trans lever as I can do that today rather than wait but it would be nice to find something that either works as is or that I can cut up to make work rather than butcher the lever and then not be able to reverse the change, although I would imagine a used stock lever is probably not too hard to find? I would imagine there are other levers, maybe even from non-Guzzis that might fit. It's a shame the Ducati lever is the wrong size as I've got a few of those knocking around the workshop.

[Dukedesmo]

I went over to my local Guzzi dealer and discovered that the new V7 Nevada uses a straight transmission lever and has the same size splined shaft.

They didn't have one in stock (never needed one) so I've ordered one and it should be here in a week or so.

[Triple Jim]

Just out of curiosity, how much does a new one cost?

[Dukedesmo]

In the UK; £31, which is around $47.

[Triple Jim]

Thanks, the used one that Curtis sent me for $20 was a good deal then.  Not that I didn't already think it was.   

Are you familiar with http://www.rebootguzzispares.com/ ?  You might keep them in mind for future parts needs.

[Dukedesmo]

So with many thanks to a generous, fellow Guzzi enthusiast I got a straight transmission lever in the post today.

Fitted it and sorted out the linkages, replacing all the ends with proper bearing/rod ends and it's all working fine, the action is a little shorter/heavier than before as the straight arm is 7mm shorter than the dogleg version and I lost 3mm off the Tarozzi lever when cutting/welding so the leverage is less requiring more force but less travel.

Engaging 1st from neutral is tricky when the engine's cold, it's actually easier to go into 2nd then to 1st than straight from neutral but once warmed up it's OK again and I like the shorter action although maybe extending the lever would eliminate the stiff 1st gear from cold?

As I'm now pushing the opposite way the 'extra' neutral that sometimes showed itself between 2nd and 3rd is easier to avoid. Before it look a long hard pull up to clear it and of course it's easier to push hard downwards and the travel is shorter so it seems to work better.

One thing I may redo is the mounting bracket as, despite being 5mm steel it does flex a little so I'll probably reinforce it or make a new more rigid version but overall it turned out good.

Anyway some pics;

Straight lever with modified linkage;

 

New, adjustable link rod;

 

After the test ride;
 


Thanks for all the advice, at least now I shouldn't misshift either the Guzzi or my other bikes as they're all the same.     

[Triple Jim]

It looks good, and I'm glad you're happy with the outcome.  You're right, it is way easier on the brain if all your motorcycles have the same shift pattern.

[Dukedesmo]

Yes, funny thing is I was fine with the Guzzi even though it was the odd-one-out but when I got back on the Ducatis I had to think twice which way was up. 

I've just been out and adjusted the setup and now the 1st gear stiffness is gone - basically I realised that the trans lever was binding a little when pulled down, so I turned it one spline on the shaft upwards so that it sits slightly above the horizontal and the shift is fine both ways now.