Need some hydraulic input MIGHT BE GETTING SOMEWHERE

[rodekyll]

Yes, I bypassed the cooler.  I hung a tank and gravity fed to the pump.  I put the return lines into bottles.  So it was a 'total loss' oiling path.  When a bottle filled I'd change it and dump the fluid through a paint filter back into the IV tank.  I ran about a gallon through this way and still saw bubbles in the return bottles.  I'm not talking little whimpy beer bubbles.  I'm talking Mike Nelson doing SEA HUNT in my torque converter -- big, gulpy, SCUBA-sized bubbles in an urgent and steady stream.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'running a lot more fluid through the system'.  Do you mean total system capacity?  I think my system holds about what the oem did.  I'll be able to tell the volume better when I repair the other bike.  I'll be draining the system to get at the pump.

[Aaron D.]

I think he means is the converter overfilled. It won't work if it is too full. I'd gues any more than 1/3 full will start to cause trouble, maybe a bit more.

Stator sprag clutch working OK?

[kirby1923]

Yes that is what I mean. Normally fluid torque systems are designed for a certain amount of fluid and if you over fill it can cause big problems.

I guess I'm at a lose. It seem to be a flow thru the converter problem/ cavitation of the stators? The air injected into the system may have been caused by that. If everything is right with the converter it should lock up (with a small bit of slippage) pretty solid until it stalls the engine unless the clutch slips to prevent that.,but you say you can stop the wheels (both?) buy holding them with your hands. Curious!  If assembled correctly and sealed with no leaks then the stators HAVE to hook pretty solid (if under stall rpm) if they have the proper amount of fluid.     

Maybe it is the clutch.

Wish I had more but I would be shooting in the dark.

Hope its something overlooked and simple.

mike

edit

Silly me, I just reread your original post and can see that you have removed the oem clutch and gearbox!
So what you have is a one to one connection from the torque converter to the rear end thru a high gear and a reverse gear. That converter was designed to work thru a primary reduction (low gear) to the rear drive and what you have has maybe overwhelmed its ability to produce enough torque from the engine to get the thing moving.

What I mean is that the driven stator and the driving stator have to come up to approximately the same rpm for the thing to hook up properly and maybe you are operating in a stalled condition without the mechanical advantage of the transmission.  It was sized that way for fitting in a small place. You might need a larger converter!  or the oem gearbox?

Dominos!

OTOH,
Maybe its the wine I had for dinner!!

mike

[fubar guzzi]

RK,please post information about the electric oil pump you mentioned earlier,Ive installed a cheap universal fuel pump and intend to keep it onboard I just need a heavy duty type. I also am experimenting with HEAVY oil (LUCAS) so far with good results. PS I got a mild hang over from all the beer WE drank the other nite!!!

[twhitaker]

If I recall correctly, the Vert transmission is a 1:1 reduction for high and a 1.6:1 reduction for low.

[Aaron D.]

Even with no reduction, there's a serious torque coming out of that-I'd guess at stall you have at least 2x input torque.

If you could get the COOLING pump out of the equation, fill the converter with about 1/3 full and block the pump lines, you could at least eliminate internal converter problems (which I'm sure aren't the issue but a bad sprag clutch on the stator might cause low torque).

[rodekyll]

Right.  No clutch.

The rear axle is in the air.  There should be no stalling with no load, should there?

The ratio is 1:1 to the differential.  The differential is 5:11.  The final ratio is about 10% lower than what we worked out for the final difference on the oem tall gear. 

Fubar -- this is an example of the pumps I'm looking at.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-CPU-Cooling-CAR-Brushless-Water-Pump-Speed-Adjustable-2000L-H-Brand-NEW-/381250988937?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58c4546b89

  It does continuous duty ~8gal/minute @6# and says it's good for 200ºc.  Foroguzzi has made a real good argument for the suitability of low pressure/high flow with a project he did a few years back.  He had a pressure gauge screwed directly onto one of the transmission fluid joints and (iirc) reported 2 - 12#.  I felt that more pressure was better and boosted one of my bikes to idle ~ 14-17# and run ~20 - 26#.  Both answers were correct.

I'm interested in what you have to say about heavy oil.  I've tried about every kind of hydraulic fluid I can get my hands on -- the aviation 5606A as well as all of the modern ATF formulas, power steering fluids, hydraulic jack fluid, fork lift hydraulic oil, etc. I've tried them with and without additive. I have not experimented outside of these viscosities.  So far the 5606A is the best replacement for Dexron II that I have found.

On the overfill -- As said in a previous post, I caught a couple ounces +/- when I separated the bellhousing from the engine.  About what I expect.  I can see fluid in the t/c.  T/c looks fresh -- no discoloration from heat and so far no stink from scorched fluid.

Kirby -- we see air and we talk about "yup, it's in there!" but so far I'm not getting any satisfactory sense of where the air is coming from.  Cavitation doesn't invent air.  And unless Lloyd Bridges (who puts two LL's at the beginning of a word?) really IS filming SEA HUNT in the t/c, there's just no physical way that much air could be trapped inside it.

Normally I get a perverted glee out of winning a game of "stump the experts".   This time not so much.

Aaron -- I'm not ruling out a problem with the t/c itself, although it's low on the list.  Remember the donor bike 'ran when parked'    .  That means I drove it to all three ends of the road just for old time's sake before pulling it through the bay doors and taking it apart.  I was both sad that I was stripping down a good runner, and excited to get it running again in this incarnation.

I'm not sure this t/c has a sprag clutch.  I *think* it's just a pair of simple turbine vanes, one drive and one driven.  How could I tell (I have a spare on the bench I can run the tell on)?

As a side note to that -- last year someone was saying they had a dead t/c they were thinking about sending me so I could cut it apart and see what is inside.  I don't remember who you are, but now would be the time!  I used to have a cut open one lying around, but it must have fallen victim to spring cleaning.

[rodekyll]

I've been asking that question with my sea hunt monolog.  So far Mr. Nelson isn't talking.   

If I could find the source of the air I think I'll have found my problem.  I opened up the bellhousing first because that's where I had my fingers last.  The only other place I can see that the system intersects air is the pump. 

I guess it's possible that this problem pre-existed the trike project, but if it did, I can't explain why the bike ran so well.

I've been thinking on Aaron's idea of prefilling the t/c and sealing the exits.  The system would only function for a few minutes -- until the fluid got too hot and scorched -- but that might be enough time to confidently eliminate the t/c as an issue.  I've got another one, untested.  I'm quite reluctant to change it on speculation because it's a PITA to center it in a vertical position and I'm sure as hell not pulling the engine again to tip it on its nose.

[rodekyll]

The cooler (radiator) is the tank, so it is both upstream and downstream of the pump.  Flow looks like this:

tank/cooler bottom -> pump -> fluid drive --> tank/cooler top -> drop through radiator tubes to bottom tank.

Yes, I proofed the radiator to 15#, which I thought would exceed any internal pressure by a bunch.  To do it I plugged all the spigots, added a Schrader valve and pumped in metered air while immersed in a tank of water.  When I got the spigot plugs all tight there were no bubbles and it held at 15# for quite a while ~(1 hour) before I released the pressure and called it good.

The big question remains -- who's got air and why are they sharing it?

[rodekyll]

Yes, I have a permanent pressure gauge in the pressure line from the pump to the t/c.  That's where I'm getting my numbers for this conversation.  Fully assembled, cap off, it tells me what the high pressure part of the system is doing.  If I cap the radiator, right now it tells me total system pressure since the entire system is pressurizing.  Ideally it should still be telling me what the high pressure segment looks like, since the rest of the system should not be pressurized.

[Aaron D.]

Quick review of torque converter vs fluid coupling.


A fluid coupling has 2 sets of vanes-the input side is called impeller, the output is the turbine.

Torque in = torque out, no reduction.

A converter is similar but adds a stator, which redirects the fluid from the turbine, and is on a sprag clutch-which allows for the torque multiplication feature of the converter.
 It only goes one way-if it doesn't, no multiplication, and fluid from the turbine will be able to hit the impeller (also called a pump in converter-speak) so may cause problems.

In either case, if the unit has oil and all parts inside are even sort of working, you will have output torque at least as high as input torque. Too much or too little oil will also cause problems.

The external pump on the convert is only for cooling. Maybe it is over or underfilling, and if the stator clutch is working there isn't much to go wrong, at least in the way you are describing.

[rodekyll]

The t/c output side spins freely in both directions -- no difference in resistance either way.  But you're saying the sprag clutch sits between the impeller and the turbine.  Is there a way to bench test it?

[rtbickel]

 

[rodekyll]

Glad I'm not boring you.   

Headed out to button it up and maybe run over my head with the LR wheel.  I think the next test will be to block the exits and holler "FIRE!" at the fluid trapped in the t/c just to see what it does.

[rodekyll]

I have two candidates for 'lectric pumps.  Here are examples:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Heavy-Duty-Rear-Mount-Turbo-Oil-Gear-Pump-12v-12-volt-Scavenge-Replace-STS-/191194745050?hash=item2c841848da&vxp=mtr\

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-CPU-Cooling-CAR-Brushless-Water-Pump-Speed-Adjustable-2000L-H-Brand-NEW-/381250988937?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58c4546b89

Any thoughts on which is the better gamble?  The plan is to get one in, use it to get the other bike going and see how it performs on a known good (  ) 'vert.  If it works there, try it on this problem child.

[Aaron D.]

If you can get the coverter out, you can reach inside and feel for a splined area-this will be the stator, and it should turn in one direction only. If it is free in both directions, the converter won't transmit much torque.

So try to fill the converter about 1/4 to 1/3, it should produce strong output. If not, I would suspect staor clutch failure.

[rodekyll]

I can access it in situ and spin it with a spare output shaft.  Stand by . . .

[rodekyll]

I have two t/c's on hand.  I put an output shaft into each and engaged the splines.  Both turn freely in either direction, so they might both be bad?  So I can't confirm or deny the operation.  Does anyone have a known good t/c they could do the spin test with?

[kirby1923]

There is air in that system at atmospheric  pressure or close. You really can't get it out! It won't take much to make bubbles, lots of bubbles. (also gas in the fluid)
The question is not how much torque is being produced by the engine, it how much is transferred from out put(engine) to in put. It just can't even overcome the wheels off the ground unloaded condition.

There is too much resistance on the output side to quickly do this. If you were to maybe set the engine to 1200 rpm and let it slowly spin the wheel(s) faster (help it by hand) and would likely, after some time finally lock up and turn the output shaft to near the same rpm. That's why they made a two speed with a low gear to lessen the torque required to get to lock up.

Your a 'vert guy so tell me how long would it take to start in high gear and accelerate to cruise speed? Its like me trying to take off in my old pickup in high gear. Sure I can do it but I will have to slip the shit out of the clutch and it will take some time.

Even though you have the wheels off the ground there is still allot of mass to accelerate and little mechanical advantage in a 1 to 1. Torque increase should be linear as the stators come up to the same or near same speed and lock up.

The real implications are that the small t/c from a 'vert is going to give you fits on any incline. Its just not big enough to overcome the high breakaway forces in 1 to 1. (from a stop).

That's why they had to use a low gear, to get it locked up and away you go.

I think the t/c is too small for what your expecting on a 1 to 1, yes even with a very low axel ratio.

FWIW

mike

[kirby1923]

Kirby , 'Verts aren't truly an auto trans , one either selects low or high range and motors away .

  Dusty

Thanks!
But we are talking about torque converters here not transmissions.

:-)

[rodekyll]

Oh -- we're past the 'standby'.  I did the test and the t/c spins both ways.  I just got off the phone with MPH.  Mike walked through the t/c construction with me and says that since I do not have concentric output shafts (one spins inside the other) I do not have a locking torque converter.  I have a simple fluid coupling which does not have a lockup capability.  This was my original understanding of the function.  His reaction is that it's a pump problem. 

So I'm really going to button up the back.  Really.  Right now.

Kirby -- I understand that you're not talking auto-transmission, but let me entertain you with a monolog anyway . . .

The legend has it that the original prototype 'vert had no gear reduction either.  MG was marketing it to LEOs, and they complained that it was unnatural to not shift a bike, and also that the stop-go urban traffic would cause the battery to discharge during the workday because the engine wasn't going fast enough to work the alternator.  MG responded with the 2-range gearbox and coupled it with a moped/scooter clutch pack.  The clutch pack was designed to run wet, but it was used dry.  With 11 or so drive/driven 'wet' plates running unlubed, it never cleanly disengaged and gear changes on-the-fly were discouraged.

the gear change is made manually, before starting to roll the bike -- low range for town so the alternator charges, and high range for everything else.  In normal operation you choose your range and use it from 0 - XXX.  The time difference between hole shots in low and high isn't significant. The only real difference is the amount of slip getting to speed and the possible top speed/range. I have another 'vert that I locked in high gear, threw away the shifter and clutch control, and pinned the clutch pack so it is impossible to slip the clutch or change gears.  I've been all over the continent in high range without shifting.  The whiz kids at WG helped me calculate my final drive ratio.  Given the Ford rear gear choices, I could go either slightly higher than oem final ratio or about 10% lower.  I installed the 5:11 Ford gears for the 10% lower.  I figured with the extra weight of the trike frame/body my curb weight is probably close to my loaded weight in 2-wheel configuration.

[kirby1923]

Thanks for that RK, I have only seen one convert, FUBAR's and watched as he tried to pull a heavy picnic table across a park on it. It would not even spin the rear wheel but did finally put the table to its new position!
I think it did managed to spin the rear once on the grass .

Anyway I tried to get some data on the workings and there isn't much out there I could work with. It does seem to me that the converter is stall/caveating which is releasing some gas bubbles. It also seemed to me that if your using a ford (read auto) rear it has to be much heavier than the 'vert components which could have a detrimental effect on its (t/c ) performance.

I will let it be now and hope you find an answer to your problems. As a fellow experimenter it would be sad to see the considerable effort you have put in wasted.

cheers

m

[kirby1923]

As in "Caveat Emptor"? Sorry Mike , couldn't help it , I am 

  Dusty

SPELL CHECKER!!!!! That's my story adn I'm sticking with it!!!

[Aaron D.]

Wait. There is a difference between a fluid coupling, a torque converter, and a locking torque converter.
The Convert is  a plain old torque converter. No lockup, no concentric shaft. Unless Guzzi decided to misname the bike, in which case it might be a fluid coupling-like old Mercedes and older GM automatics, but I really doubt it.
The stator in the converter does not lock, it causes the torque multiplication. If the stator is spinning freely in both directions, it will act like a bad fluid coupling. Real bad.

The stator is not connected to the output shaft. It is mounted on a splined hub, splined to the impeller side. You may not be able to see or feel it from outside, putting a shaft in will definitely not work.

Anyway, I suspect the fluid levell is low, how do you check it in a Convert? Is there a spec for total fill? Is the new tank locaation radically higher or lower, or the lines so long that the fluid in the system isn't high enough?

[rodekyll]

I reinstalled the stuff (less drive shaft), with the t/c gravity loaded to the lower lip of its mouth.

I plugged the intake and outgo of the transmission and the pump.

I started it.  The drive shaft flange didn't move, so I looked closer and revved it.  (NOTE TO SELF:  Don't do that with the drive shaft missing.)  It spun up so fast that it flung the EP moly grease out of the CV flange all over every damn thing -- like the trike, the carport, and of course, the first thing it encountered -- my face.     I'll clean up the mess and continue this test.  Good thing I wear safety glasses.  But the test looks promising . . . .

Kirby -- I appreciate your input.  All the comments are pieces of the puzzle.  I just need to figure out the fit.   

Dusty -- have I spoken with fubar on the phone before?

[Aaron D.]

Have a long bar? Do a dyno! Just kidding.

Do you have a way to see if you are getting decent torque? Should be double (or close) the crank torque at stall. Or just see if the wheels are turning with authority.

[rodekyll]

Heuristics, Dusty, Heuristics.

I got the drive shaft back on (takes longer than the rest of the R&R) and torqued down.  Plugged the intake and outgo right at the tranny right at the spigots.  (do NOT mistake this for any current events in the news).  Started it up.  I gave it about 30sec to settle in and rolled on the throttle.  It was herky-jerky for another 30sec and then the rear started spinning with what you're calling 'authority' -- I call 'vigor.'  It resisted the brake.  That hasn't happened before.  [NOTE TO SELF:  Those silicone plugs I use for powdercoating have a variety of uses and come in a mind-boggling variety of sizes and shapes]

I didn't do any stall tests because I'm concerned about frying fluid, but if I hold one wheel stopped the other spins right up.  More wheel speed than I've seen thus far X5 or more.  This needs a toke and screwdriver (the yellow kind) to ruminate with, but once I get my head around it I think we'll finally tree the possum.  (hey luap -- where's the possum smarm?)

[Aaron D.]

Excellent news!

Now, I have no direct Convert experience but the cooliong system is likely low pressure? Has the reservoir been moved up or down quite a bit? Either way could be part of the problem, either over-or under-filling the converter.

[rodekyll]

The reservoir has been made taller by substituting a radiator, and combines the cooler and tank.  The return is higher and the intake is lower.  It is also served by longer hoses than oem.I'm not sure of the significance of any of that.   

[Aaron D.]

I'm guessing the tank on a Convert is fairly close to the same height as the converter? I'm thinking the level of the system is changed by moving the level of the reservoir and cooler higher. That would raise the oil level inside the converter.

An overfilled converter won't work. The oil has to be "flung" from the impeller to transmit torque. I would not expect hose length to be a big issue.

Try getting the header/reservoir at some level below center of the converter and see if it works better. Unless there is some sophisticated scavenging system in there (I don't believe it) that should give you lots of torque.