Self-Driving cars / autos merged threadfest

[Kev m]

I have to disagree with the observations of the past.  Maybe in rural communities youngsters were more 'into' cars, but, not in the city I was in.

Yep, I was a gear head, and there were a bunch others.  But that meant about 100 in a HS of over 4000 students.  Most could not care less what kind of car they had as long as it got them from a to b.  That was late 60's.  Even when in college the great majority just wanted transportion.  Type didn't matter as long as it ran.  Vans were popular for a number of reasons, but, condition was anything but great.

Move forward to today.  There is still just a small percentage of 'gear heads'.  Maybe a little less, but, they are still out there.  And the young ones I have met started their interest in mechanical stuff from video games.  They wanted to move from the fantasy world to the real world.

Motorcycles?  I hear just as many 'crash' stories now as I did as a kid.  Three of my friends won't ride anymore cause they were in serious accidents less than 10 years ago.

Job categories?  Computers?  YES!  Look at what you need to do to service a modern car or bike.  And, yes, there are fewer old style mecahnics out there because there are fewer cars/motorcycles that they can work on.  Mechanical reliability is higher, fewer periodic service items (except for valve adjustments on a bunch of motorcycles).  It makes sense that kids want to work with computers.

Good observations!

They all make sense to me.

[Two Checks]

Driving a bus doesn't have challenges and discomfort?
And when hitched to a wagon you were driving horses. Where did the term, "pull in" come from?

[oldbike54]

Driving a bus doesn't have challenges and discomfort?
And when hitched to a wagon you were driving horses. Where did the term, "pull in" come from?

 Nope , you are driving the wagon , not the horses . Never heard the term "pull in" , so no idea . Enlighten us .

  Dusty

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

You may be confusing racing on the street with simply enjoying the more nimble attribute of a motorcycle when contrasted with a four wheeled vehicle.  I don't think anyone here advocates racing on the street but one can experience the sporting side of motorcycling by simply riding briskly and responsibly when the time, traffic and conditions permit.

You're no doubt aware that motorcycling has evolved from utilitarian post-WWII transportation through a personal choice of transportation through today where I see it as more diversion than necessity.  A large part of the "Sport" of motorcycling for me is holding my intended line through a curve, hitting my braking points, keeping escape routes planned and staying alive.  All of which can be thrilling pursued at or below the speed limit.

If to be Sport, goals have to be achieved and measured, I do it each time I ride.  Did I operate more smoothly today?  Was I a better motorcyclist?  Do I need to practice a particular maneuver?  Could I have merged more safely?  Where am I deficient? 

 

[Chuck in Indiana]

As far as younger riders.. here's Kevin. Hopefully, I've been a good influence on him.  He just finished up his commercial pilot's license and is working on his instrument ticket.
He's been a gear head from the first time I met him.. around 6 years old at OshKosh. He asked questions that kids don't ask about the airplanes. Always had had some engine he was fooling with, and hung out at the airport with his dad.

One of our mutual friends had an old Honda and sold it to him for $300. 
This is what he built.. very nice. He has a good eye.

He did it all, including paint and body work.
 
That said, he's the only serious gearhead kid that I've known over the last 15 or so years.

[PJPR01]

Have to disagree with you there.   To me, it's like hiking, or kayaking, or mountain climbing, or scuba diving.    You have special equipment to do it, it takes some amount of commitment and discomfort, and you have to work to be good at it.

The big ADVANTAGE is that you can combine your "sport" with things you have to do ANYway, like get from place to place.   There isn't much opportunity for that when canoeing or scuba diving - it's 100% added extra expense, where the sport of motorcycling can substitute for the expense of a car going back and forth to work, say ....

Lannis

 

And if you're riding a little bit or more on edge, your heart rate does get moving above triple digits, so it's actually good cardiovascular exercise as well!  :) 

[John Ulrich]

He did it all, including paint and body work.
 
That said, he's the only serious gearhead kid that I've known over the last 15 or so years.

There is hope after all...Great to read about youth like him.   He resembles my nephew in Indy .....but he's barely able to raise the hood to add oil when the dash light goes on!

[Rough Edge racing]

 Some think golf is a sport..........And hunting is a sport? it might only be if the odds were a bit more equal... And sport fishing?  I think a driver rowing the duplex gear box of an old under powered truck through the mountains is more sporting...

[Mark West]

Just some musings but I think it starts with the children and I don't see many that are attracted to motos these days. I'm sure there are varied reasons but here are some of my thoughts:

Who even rides bicycles anymore? When I was a kid we rode bikes everywhere. downtown, to the public pool, to the park, or just to ride. At age 10 we would ride to the neighboring towns just to see what was there. We'd leave in the morning and not come home till dinner. Now I see lots of kids skateboarding at the skate park and using the trick scooters but very few bicycles. parents won't let kids go very far so what use is a bicycle? As a kid, riding a bike prepares you for motos. You develop basic riding skills and confidence, you go to construction sites and climb hills of dirt, you learn how to work on your bike, you have adventures. It's just natural for any kid who has spent a lot of time on bicycles to want one with a motor. Conversely, if you haven't had fun on a bicycle, you're less likely to understand the appeal of a motorcycle later on.

I figure cost is a major issue. Motorcycling is not inexpensive. You need to want it pretty bad to put together money to buy a bike, riding gear, insurance, and pay for all the tires, oil, etc. Don't see many bikes that a kid with a paper route could afford and I don't expect there are many paper route jobs anymore besides. Average incomes are falling/costs are rising meaning fewer parents can afford to buy something for their kids.

Fewer places for kids to ride. Growing up in the northwest suburbs of Chicago, there were plenty of large chunks of undeveloped land where you could take a mini bike or small dirt bike and ride without being hassled. Even if you didn't have one, kids would hang out there and think about how cool it would be to have one. Now I live in an area more known for agriculture but I don't know many places a kid could ride where he didn't need a parent to take him there. If you do find an empty lot, you're probably trespassing or breaking some kind of ordinance and the cops are going to harass you.

Parents are more risk averse. In an age where you don't let a kid walk a half a block to school and playground equipment is all removed so kids don't get hurt, folks are less likely to even let a kid ride on the back of a motorcycle let alone encourage them to ride. Kids who have been sheltered are more likely to be afraid of a motorcycle when they get older.

[Chuck in Indiana]

There is hope after all...Great to read about youth like him.   He resembles my nephew in Indy .....but he's barely able to raise the hood to add oil when the dash light goes on!

Kevin could..uh.. *fix* whatever's going on with your nephew's vehicle.
and wonder why just anyone couldn't do that..

[Kev m]

Mark, what you describe is true in a lot of places.

But I'm happy to say it's not universal.

One of the reasons we chose this area was the prevalence of outdoor living. We're surrounded by a maze of lakes and small wooded streets that promote bicycling and canoeing and kayaking and paddle boarding...

We're a couple of hundred yards from a grade school whose bicycle racks fill up every weekday morning with dozens and dozens of bikes. This even holds true in the summer as they base a kids camp there as well.

There are restaurants and small shops (like the Sand Stand an ice cream shop) not a mile away just across from the small memorial park and the local police station.

And we're not more than 5-10 miles from state and federal forests with hundreds of miles of trails and roads all with bicycle lanes.

My kids already love their bicycles and are showing early interest not only in the motorcycles but everything that goes on in the garage.

I kinda wonder though if all this was already in the minority even when I was a kid.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Parents are more risk averse. In an age where you don't let a kid walk a half a block to school and playground equipment is all removed so kids don't get hurt, folks are less likely to even let a kid ride on the back of a motorcycle let alone encourage them to ride. Kids who have been sheltered are more likely to be afraid of a motorcycle when they get older.

<sigh> there is that. <snapping suspenders> When I was a kid, I was breaking horses (seriously) to ride.. well, Shetland ponies at any rate.. when I was 5. (!) Pretty much had the run of the countryside on the back of my horse. I could literally be miles away from home. No....big....deal.
A couple of years ago, the twin grand kids came here from California for a while. They were 11 at the time. I arranged to get a 4 wheeler, told them to get lost on it on our 120 acres. They were afraid to get out of sight of us. It had *never* happened in their lives.
I realize that times are different, but still...

[oldbike54]

 Kev m my old buddy , you REALLY need to invest in a new auto correct . LOL

  Dusty

[Lannis]

Kev m my old buddy , you REALLY need to invest in a new auto correct . LOL

  Dusty

Maybe it's not the kind of shop you think it is ... !?!?

[oldbike54]

Maybe it's not the kind of shop you think it is ... !?!?

 OH MY !

  Dusty

[Lannis]

OH MY !

  Dusty

It's New Jersey after all.   You hear rumors ....

[jas67]

...
I've stopped riding on most weekends because I prefer the weekdays when the traffic is less. I've noticed quite a few riders of mature age riding then too. The cafes aren't crowded, there are far fewer sleds on the road and the riding time much more enjoyable.
...

I very much enjoy taking the occasional mid-week day off work to ride for this very reason, FAR less traffic mid-day during the week than on the weekend, at least on the roads I typically ride.

[Lannis]

I very much enjoy taking the occasional mid-week day off work to ride for this very reason, FAR less traffic mid-day during the week than on the weekend, at least on the roads I typically ride.

YES!  One of the benefits of retirement.

I was out cutting grass today, and a riding buddy stopped by on his FZ-9 Yamaha and said "Let's go riding ... somewhere".

He needed to make a trip to the bike shop - he's trying to sell or trade his FZ and his Kaw Concours and get the Yamaha FX-09 or whatever the adv-bike version is.

So I handed the mower over to Fay, geared up, aired up, gassed up and off we went, following something in his GPS.   

BEAUTIFUL fall day!   We rode along the crooked roads that follow the south side of the James River in Virginia (going east) until we got to a bridge.  Then we crossed and followed the crooked roads that follow the NORTH side of the river going west.

The first 25 miles, we didn't see a single vehicle in either direction.   As we approached Lynchburg from the east, we FINALLY saw two cars but that was ALL until we turned onto US29 south.   

Two cars in 50 miles.  Ah LAHV zees country!

Lannis

[canuguzzi]

Just some musings but I think it starts with the children and I don't see many that are attracted to motos these days. I'm sure there are varied reasons but here are some of my thoughts:

Who even rides bicycles anymore? When I was a kid we rode bikes everywhere. downtown, to the public pool, to the park, or just to ride. At age 10 we would ride to the neighboring towns just to see what was there. We'd leave in the morning and not come home till dinner. Now I see lots of kids skateboarding at the skate park and using the trick scooters but very few bicycles. parents won't let kids go very far so what use is a bicycle?

Around here, bicycles are everywhere, literally. Bike lanes everywhere, new laws to make sure you don't crowd them. In some places, more bikes than people walking or cars being driven.

[rboe]

<sigh> there is that. <snapping suspenders> When I was a kid, I was breaking horses (seriously) to ride.. well, Shetland ponies at any rate.. when I was 5. (!) Pretty much had the run of the countryside on the back of my horse. I could literally be miles away from home. No....big....deal.
A couple of years ago, the twin grand kids came here from California for a while. They were 11 at the time. I arranged to get a 4 wheeler, told them to get lost on it on our 120 acres. They were afraid to get out of sight of us. It had *never* happened in their lives.
I realize that times are different, but still...

When I was a kid, we'd get together, maybe two of us, and go look for quick sand down by the river (which was a mile or two away - depending on which curve you blundered into - no google maps back then). Quicksand was not a myth. I suspect the folks were looking for a do-over.

But this was a small small town, kids in other small towns seem to echo my childhood. Urban kids, not so much. Farm and ranch kids were driving tractors and trucks (my first tractor "driving" was at 8 years old or so. It was a while back. :) I don't think that part has changed much but have not lived in a small town for many years.

Back in Minnesota, many of us canoed and cross country skied but frankly, the winter active folks were a small percentage of the population with most folks dreaming of Arizona, summers, football and beer tasting. In no particular order.

As long as some of us are doing something we're good.

[LowRyter]

3 pages and we've learned that Harleys are popular with old fats and some of kids like to build Japanese Brat bikes.

Who knew?

[Kev m]

It's New Jersey after all.   You hear rumors ....

Ha ha..

Ice cream... Lol

[Demar]

In general, with fewer parents working manufacturing jobs now, it's no surprise to me that there are fewer gear-head "kids".

Did any of us buy new motorcycles to start out? I sure as heck didn't - all of mine were built up from old junkers found in barns, sheds, etc. No reason why a kid today couldn't do the same, except that they don't want to.

This may have been said already.... I haven't read the entire thread yet.

40 years ago and prior cars didn't have all the electronic stuff they have now. I remember setting points, no EFI. Cars and bikes were simple to work on compared to todays vehicles. Oil now lasts 10,000 mile or more. Spark plugs go 100,000 miles. Over the years reliability of vehicles has increased and maintenance has decreased and with the complexity increasing not many people work on their vehicles. High School's are dropping their shop classes.. schools in the '70's that had very capable auto shop and metal shop no longer have those classes available. Kids just don't have routine easy access to auto shop classes today. Kids that became interested in wrenching because their friends were into it doesn't happen as easily as it did in the past.

[Triple Jim]

Kids just don't have routine easy access to auto shop classes today. Kids that became interested in wrenching because their friends were into it doesn't happen as easily as it did in the past.

True, but from what I've seen, kids are too busy thumb-typing to bother with shop class, even if it were available.

[SDC]

It's hard to find places for kids to learn to ride these days. Unless you are lucky enough to have farmland in your family you either have to pay a lot of money to use a club or be old enough to get a licence. When I was a kid we had heaps of public spaces we could use.

[Aaron D.]

We have lots of shop classes, trade schools up here. The kids aren't riding because they are working, just like they did when I was a kid. Had a few working here Saturday.

Bikes have always been in the minority, that's why we think we are all individualists.

[Kev m]

This may have been said already.... I haven't read the entire thread yet.

40 years ago and prior cars didn't have all the electronic stuff they have now. I remember setting points, no EFI. Cars and bikes were simple to work on compared to todays vehicles. Oil now lasts 10,000 mile or more. Spark plugs go 100,000 miles. Over the years reliability of vehicles has increased and maintenance has decreased and with the complexity increasing not many people work on their vehicles. High School's are dropping their shop classes.. schools in the '70's that had very capable auto shop and metal shop no longer have those classes available. Kids just don't have routine easy access to auto shop classes today. Kids that became interested in wrenching because their friends were into it doesn't happen as easily as it did in the past.

I really don't accept this.

Now MAYBE less wrenching is getting DONE BECAUSE cars need it less. As you say the oil and spark plugs last longer, there's no timing or dwell to check/set, etc.

But I continue to reject the concept that you can't work on them, or they are harder to repair (it's just different in SOME cases, but not necessarily harder). More expensive sometimes, but that doesn't mean it's harder to turn the wrenches.

I really do wonder if we're not looking at this subject through highly tinted glasses.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I really don't accept this.

Now MAYBE less wrenching is getting DONE BECAUSE cars need it less. As you say the oil and spark plugs last longer, there's no timing or dwell to check/set, etc.

But I continue to reject the concept that you can't work on them, or they are harder to repair (it's just different in SOME cases, but not necessarily harder). More expensive sometimes, but that doesn't mean it's harder to turn the wrenches.

I really do wonder if we're not looking at this subject through highly tinted glasses.

Kev, you're too young to remember Service stations. Cars needed Service about every 1000 miles. (!) Kids hung out there, got in the way, and sometimes helped.  Changing plugs? Piece of cake. Cars were designed to be maintained because they *had* to be maintained. You have to pull the engine on some cars now just to change the plugs.
At any rate, there was a constant stream of cars being serviced, kids hung out there, and some caught the bug to turn wrenches. Won't happen any more.

[leafman60]

Is motorcycling the new shuffleboard?

[Kev m]

Kev, you're too young to remember Service stations. Cars needed Service about every 1000 miles. (!) Kids hung out there, got in the way, and sometimes helped.  Changing plugs? Piece of cake. Cars were designed to be maintained because they *had* to be maintained. You have to pull the engine on some cars now just to change the plugs.
At any rate, there was a constant stream of cars being serviced, kids hung out there, and some caught the bug to turn wrenches. Won't happen any more.

No doubt it's different now.

But people do still catch the bug.

You see it on internet forums (for cars more than bikes, but that's just percentages talking there).

I've got a good buddy whose little brother (early 20s) is part of a truck club - these guys do serious modifications (not my taste, but serious). Sorta truck versions of the classic low riders. The club is pretty big and members attend car shows all up and down the east coast.