Self-Driving cars / autos merged threadfest

[charlie b]

Cars were designed to be maintained because they *had* to be maintained. You have to pull the engine on some cars now just to change the plugs.

I think you forgot some of the old issues.  The Chevy 427 in many of their sedans.  You had to remove the front wheels and inner fender parts to get to some of the spark plugs.  There was one model that you did have to lift the engine to get to the plugs (don't remember now but it was a right PITA).  There was one Chrysler model that they 'hid' the oil drain plug with a frame cross member so you had to lift the engine to drain the oil.

Those led to some 'rules' by the SAE to make cars serviceable.  Those 'rules' are still in place, but, mfgs are making it so there is less maintenance.

Now days does it matter if you have to lift the engine to change the plugs?  Heck, they go for 100k miles.  Not the same as changing them every 10k miles.

I made a lot of extra money in HS doing tuneups on cars.  Carb rebuilds, points, sometimes adjusting valves. 

Oil change very 3k miles, points and plugs every 10k.  Carb rebuild by 20k.  Valve jobs between 50k and 75k.  Engine overhauls at 100k (or so).

Now days I'd go broke.  About the only services needed are changing oil and filters.

[Lannis]

I really don't accept this.

Now MAYBE less wrenching is getting DONE BECAUSE cars need it less. As you say the oil and spark plugs last longer, there's no timing or dwell to check/set, etc.

But I continue to reject the concept that you can't work on them, or they are harder to repair (it's just different in SOME cases, but not necessarily harder). More expensive sometimes, but that doesn't mean it's harder to turn the wrenches.

I really do wonder if we're not looking at this subject through highly tinted glasses.

I think you're correct.   We here on WG just don't live in the "new" world of automobile hobby performance upgrades.

I'm on the Ford Festiva forums (since I have one), and it's amazing what the young guys do in the area of swapping fuel injector "rails" from a Mazda to a Festiva, swapping out camshafts, etc.

And on a whim, waiting in an airport, I picked up a modern "car performace" magazine of some kind.   I was really surprised at the sort of modifications that people make to NEW Audis and BMWs, swapping engines and injector systems and cams and programs - it's just like someone swapping a 383 into a 340 'Cuda.    There's more plastic and hoses and electronics to deal with, but the guys who are into it just deal with it, and you can get a step-by-step diagram that shows you what they did ...

It's not "shade-tree" stuff but it's apparently done all the time ...

Lannis

[rocker59]

I think you forgot some of the old issues.  The Chevy 427 in many of their sedans.  You had to remove the front wheels and inner fender parts to get to some of the spark plugs.  There was one model that you did have to lift the engine to get to the plugs (don't remember now but it was a right PITA).   

Which models?  I don't recall having to do that, and I've been around a lot of big block Chevrolets.

Even changing plugs in some small block cars was difficult, but I don't remember the kind of disassembly you note.

It was the shock towers that got in the way on my '67 Chevy II.  Real tight clearance there.

'69 Chevelle


'68 Impala


'66 Impala


'67 Chevy II Nova

[Aaron D.]

We are in a real golden age for cars-when you can buy a 700+ hp car from a Chrysler/Dodge dealer, Mustangs have 500+ hp, Corvettes are world-class cars...

And all this complaining about Harley riders, from a forum populated by "buy American" enthusiasts (I am one..) .

This is what it looks like when an American company dominates the domestic motorcycle scene, and this is what American motorcyclists want.  Our fringe attitude is really out of date-sometimes foreign isn't better, it's just..foreign.

Plenty of kids are into performance cars. Our age group calls them riceburners.

Chuck's friend? How many here would have called him a hipster if they saw him out of this context? I mean, he has an old Honda turned into a cafe racer, right?

Motorcycling is fine. We're just getting old and not taking it very well.

[steven c]

 Have you ever seen a stock WRX? I was day dreaming about buying one but try to find one that hasn't been modded. When I was a kid every one had a mini bike , my first motorized two wheel experience was on a mini bike riding around my friends yard in the suburbs.I guess that is where I got the two wheel bug. Now in the cites lots of young folks on cheap Chinese bikes riding illegally terrorizing neighborhoods but I don't think they will grow the sport.

[Two Checks]

Dusty, you've NEVER heard the term, "pull in"?

"Pull your car into the garage, we'll change the tires".
"Don't back it in, pull it in".
It came from Teamsters driving horses.

[oldbike54]

Dusty, you've NEVER heard the term, "pull in"?

"Pull your car into the garage, we'll change the tires".
"Don't back it in, pull it in".
It came from Teamsters driving horses.

 Ahh , interesting .

  Dusty

[Triple Jim]

Which models?  I don't recall having to do that, and I've been around a lot of big block Chevrolets.

The one I know of was not a BBC, it was the V8 Monza.

[oldbike54]

The one I know of was not a BBC, it was the V8 Monza.

 CB may have been thinking about some of the big block Pontiacs , which did in fact require removing a wheel and going through the fender well to get at a couple of spark plugs .

  Dusty

[Penderic]

Meanwhile.......




(cough, cough.  cough!)

[not-fishing]

If motorcycling on the street is a sport then so is driving a bus. And if you feel it's a sport then you have the wrong attitude towards it.

Well you might be right.  Motorcycle riding in the SF bay area or LA is more like COMBAT! I do miss Vic Morrow

Then again it does have a lethal component of many sports.  Like Eventing Horses, rock climbing in Yosemite or Sky-Diving with a Wing Suit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2&v=iMf1xC2NdHg

[willowstreetguzziguy]

Started riding a bicycle in 1962 at the age of 9 and haven't stopped. I rode wherever I wanted to go. after riding single speeds, I bought a 10 speed in 1973 and that took me on multi-week and multi-month adventure trips. So 2-wheel adventure/exploring/traveling (bicycles & motorcycles) is in my blood.

Back in 1971, I took up motorcycles on a Honda 65cc bike for $125. A few months later a Suzuki 125cc for $225 after selling the 125. In the summer of 1972, I bought a new Suzuki 380cc for $900 after selling the 125 for $350. And this was while going to art school and working part time at $2 per hr.

Back then, cycles seemed inexpensive and they were multi-functional not specialized as today. ...Even when making $2 per hr. I paid for a new cycle and schooling. Try that today working part time.

Through the 44 years, I've heard "Isn't that dangerous?" I've known several people who have given it up... "too dangerous" they say. I know people who won't venture off a designated bicycle rail trails for fear of getting hit by a car. And factor in the danger of all people driving while texting.

The other element I see are "Rice Rockets" tearing past on the highways and LOUD Harley pipes. Does these kind of examples make people want to take up the sport?!?

And around here I see riders putting signs in their yards that read "Watch out for motorcycles... they're everywhere" and I think (and I'm a rider) you will get respect from drivers WHEN YOU SHOW RESPECT FOR THEM!   

[Kev m]

Through the 44 years, I've heard "Isn't that dangerous?" I've known several people who have given it up... "too dangerous" they say. I know people who won't venture off a designated bicycle rail trails for fear of getting hit by a car. And factor in the danger of all people driving while texting.

My BIL and SIL (she's the marine I've mentioned here before) live in Chester County PA (rolling hill country).

Both are avid bicyclists (he might be more of a bicycle nut, I think he had about a dozen a year or two ago between his street bikes and mountain bikes).

They also started riding motorcycles with Jenn and I.

He picked a Kawi Versys and she a NC700X maybe what half a decade ago (when did the NC700X come out?).

They rode those motorcycles and/or their street bikes weekly.

Then last year, out of no where, they sold everything but the mountain bikes.

The motorcycles and the street bikes were gone in a flash.

When I asked them about it they simply said they felt it had gotten too dangerous to ride on the street.

Now they mountain bike exclusively, which is sorta funny cause one of them goes over the bars like WEEKLY now. He had to have surgery for a separated shoulder just this past year.

<shrugs>

[rocker59]

Meanwhile.......




(cough, cough.  cough!)

Overlay life expectancy with median age and that would be the tell.

Some of those green countries with teen-aged median ages probably have life expectancies half of what they are in the 1st World.

Edit:  Google is your friend.  Not quite half, but significant.

Niger - 57.97
Uganda - 58.65
Mali - 54.60
Afghanistan - 60.51

Germany - 80.89
Japan - 83.10
Italy - 82.94
USA - 78.74
Canada - 81.24

[jas67]

Mark, what you describe is true in a lot of places.

But I'm happy to say it's not universal.

One of the reasons we chose this area was the prevalence of outdoor living. We're surrounded by a maze of lakes and small wooded streets that promote bicycling and canoeing and kayaking and paddle boarding...

We're a couple of hundred yards from a grade school whose bicycle racks fill up every weekday morning with dozens and dozens of bikes. This even holds true in the summer as they base a kids camp there as well.

There are restaurants and small shops (like the Sand Stand an ice cream shop) not a mile away just across from the small memorial park and the local police station.

And we're not more than 5-10 miles from state and federal forests with hundreds of miles of trails and roads all with bicycle lanes.

My kids already love their bicycles and are showing early interest not only in the motorcycles but everything that goes on in the garage.

I kinda wonder though if all this was already in the minority even when I was a kid.

Keep them away from video games.   My daughter used to like to ride her bicycle and ride on the back of my motorcycle.   Now, all, all she wants to do is play video games or read Harry Potter. 

[Triple Jim]

Now they mountain bike exclusively, which is sorta funny cause one of them goes over the bars like WEEKLY now. He had to have surgery for a separated shoulder just this past year.

<shrugs>

Yes, high-level mountain biking will beat you up to some extent.  A riding buddy and I say that if we don't come home bloody, we didn't have a good time.  But being in the woods on trails, without having to constantly deal with cars and drivers who either don't see you, or do see you and want to show you how irritated they are for being delayed five or ten seconds, can make the difference between enjoying a ride or putting up with it.

Bicycling on public roads has the danger elements of motorcycling, compounded by the difference in speed that makes you encounter several times the number of other vehicles, all wanting to pass immediately, even if it means on a blind curve or hilltop.  I mostly quit road cycling for the last few years I lived in Bethesda, MD.  Now I'm so far out in the country, during a one hour ride I typically encounter a dozen cars or fewer.

[Kev m]

Keep them away from video games.   My daughter used to like to ride her bicycle and ride on the back of my motorcycle.   Now, all, all she wants to do is play video games or read Harry Potter.

That's very simple.

There is a time limit on electronics.

[Kev m]

Bicycling on public roads has the danger elements of motorcycling, compounded by the difference in speed that makes you encounter several times the number of other vehicles, all wanting to pass immediately, even if it means on a blind curve or hilltop.  I mostly quit road cycling for the last few years I lived in Bethesda, MD.  Now I'm so far out in the country, during a one hour ride I typically encounter a dozen cars or fewer.

The constant rolling hills and curves where they live was motorcycling paradise, but it means constantly being in danger on a bicycle.

The flip side of that is where we live now there are hundreds of miles of relatively flat, straight roads with wide bicycle lanes. They'd probably do much better here.

[Triple Jim]

The flip side of that is where we live now there are hundreds of miles of relatively flat, straight roads with wide bicycle lanes. They'd probably do much better here.

If they didn't die from boredom, riding on flat, straight roads all the time.   

[jas67]

That's very simple.

There is a time limit on electronics.

We DO limit the time on the electronics.    She spends the rest of the time either reading or bitching about how we are mean for limiting the electronics time.

In any case, don't let your kids get addicted to begin with.    That is a lot easier at the age they're at now then the pre-teen years when they're MUCH more under the influence of other kids.

[jas67]

Yes, high-level mountain biking will beat you up to some extent.  A riding buddy and I say that if we don't come home bloody, we didn't have a good time.  But being in the woods on trails, without having to constantly deal with cars and drivers who either don't see you, or do see you and want to show you how irritated they are for being delayed five or ten seconds, can make the difference between enjoying a ride or putting up with it.

Bicycling on public roads has the danger elements of motorcycling, compounded by the difference in speed that makes you encounter several times the number of other vehicles, all wanting to pass immediately, even if it means on a blind curve or hilltop.  I mostly quit road cycling for the last few years I lived in Bethesda, MD.  Now I'm so far out in the country, during a one hour ride I typically encounter a dozen cars or fewer.

I used to spend a fair amount of time mountain bike and road biking (bicycle).    Yeah, the guys I rode with had the same, "if you're not crashing, your not trying" mentality with mountain biking.   I think that I'm paying for that now.    I pretty much have quite road bicycling for the same reasons as you, it is too dangerous.   I feel WAY more vulnerable than on the motorcycle.    Mountain biking for me these days is mostly limited to rail trail type riding.  Which, aside from being much less convenient than just getting on the road bike and riding from the house, is more enjoyable due to not having to dodge traffic.

I enjoy riding my dual sport on unpaved roads for the same reasons -- virtually no traffic to deal with.

[Triple Jim]

We DO limit the time on the electronics.    She spends the rest of the time either reading or bitching about how we are mean for limiting the electronics time.

Ha, that reminds me of one time I told the kids, probably ages around 3 and 5, it was time to go outside and play in our yard for a while.  My daughter (5) moped around outside, doing nothing but waiting to be allowed back in, occasionally asking if it was time yet.  Luckily she has since found a better appreciation for the outdoors.

[Lannis]

We DO limit the time on the electronics.    She spends the rest of the time either reading or bitching about how we are mean for limiting the electronics time.

In any case, don't let your kids get addicted to begin with.    That is a lot easier at the age they're at now then the pre-teen years when they're MUCH more under the influence of other kids.

That's the answer.   We never bought any video games, electronics, phones, etc for our kids.   We don't have the TV hooked up to any broadcast or cable - just DVDs of our choice.

Outdoor activities, hunting, fishing, bicycling, trail-biking .... no time for anything else.   You wouldn't BELIEVE how many problems that eliminates compared to all the parents worrying about who they are "texting", what "sites" they are visiting, sitting in their room for hours with a joystick or thumbing buttons ... and the parents ENABLE all that, and PAY for all that, and then bitch and moan about how it's affecting their kids ....

You don't have to do it just because everyone else is doing it.    Seems to be a hard lesson to learn though ....

Lannis

[sib]

....At any rate, there was a constant stream of cars being serviced, kids hung out there, and some caught the bug to turn wrenches. Won't happen any more.

Ah yes, I fondly remember the taste of mouth-siphoned leaded-gas and the smell of inhaled asbestos dust from brake drums.

[Devildog]

Our two sons, in their 30's, love their dirt bikes and trail ride at any opportunity. Colorado,, Utah (Moab) New Mexico and Texas. They are planning a Baja trip. If I had seriously ridden trails when I was that age maybe a street bike wouldnt have been a priority.

[Kev m]

If they didn't die from boredom, riding on flat, straight roads all the time.   

True, but at least the forests are pretty.

We DO limit the time on the electronics.    She spends the rest of the time either reading or bitching about how we are mean for limiting the electronics time.

In any case, don't let your kids get addicted to begin with.    That is a lot easier at the age they're at now then the pre-teen years when they're MUCH more under the influence of other kids.

No one ever died from bitching, and there will always be outside influences, but if she's living under your roof, then it's your rules.

[canuguzzi]

We are in a real golden age for cars-when you can buy a 700+ hp car from a Chrysler/Dodge dealer, Mustangs have 500+ hp, Corvettes are world-class cars...

And all this complaining about Harley riders, from a forum populated by "buy American" enthusiasts (I am one..) .

This is what it looks like when an American company dominates the domestic motorcycle scene, and this is what American motorcyclists want.  Our fringe attitude is really out of date-sometimes foreign isn't better, it's just..foreign.

Plenty of kids are into performance cars. Our age group calls them riceburners.

Chuck's friend? How many here would have called him a hipster if they saw him out of this context? I mean, he has an old Honda turned into a cafe racer, right?

Motorcycling is fine. We're just getting old and not taking it very well.

That is the way it is. Besides, riding and wrenching are too different things and you don't need to do the second to enjoy the first. The guy or gal that has ridden their bike all year and can just jump on and go because they still have 10k before a valve adjustment is riding.

[Moto]

Well, I have to apologize for not having read this whole thread (I've been occupied), but I did do some keyword searching before posting...

I think what's happening is that the average intelligence of motorcyclists is declining through time.

I'll explain my theory, and then the evidence.

Theory: In the 60's when I started riding, not much was known about motorcycle safety. Honda's campaign claiming you meet the nicest people was enough to convince many reasonable people to ride. Smart people bought motorcycles to do useful things, so they had luggage racks, sensible riding positions, room to pack a girlfriend, and adaptability for other opportunities that might come up.

As time passed two things happened. First, more information about the relative danger of motorcycling versus car driving became available and was widely distributed. Smart people began to think twice about riding. Second, the conditions under which motorcycles operate became progressively worse, with more crowding and with increasingly armored, coddled, and electronics entranced drivers not giving a rat's posterior about us. Again, smart people began to think twice.

The result, in my theory, is a decline in the average intelligence of motorcycle riders. Smart people don't do it as much, making the non-smart a predominant and growing majority.

Evidence: The evidence is the motorcycles the remaining population choose. Instead of flexible, practical designs they pick road racers or Wild One sickles in huge proportions. The first are particularly stupid choices (and a main empirical buttress of my theory), but the second are also typically inferior as motorcycles to other designs, for any given task. By their choices ye shall know them. Stupid is as stupid does.

Not all motorcyclists are stupid. You and I, for example, are smart. But the others are getting stupider and more confounding to the rest of us, on average, as time goes on. This explains everything.

Moto

P.S. Smart people have now moved more to scooters. Ironically, they're no safer. In time this will be understood and smart people will abandon them too. Then the remaining scooter riders will gravitate to Ruckuses and away from the more practical designs that now predominate. (Good theories make testable predictions.)

M.

[LongRanger]

Ruckuses? Rucki?

[Two Checks]

CB may have been thinking about some of the big block Pontiacs , which did in fact require removing a wheel and going through the fender well to get at a couple of spark plugs .

  Dusty

Actually with only a coupleexceptions all Pontiac engines were big blocks, regardless of displacement.