Author Topic: Water Cooling for 2017?  (Read 23389 times)

Penderic

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Water Cooling for 2017?
« on: August 04, 2015, 07:09:54 AM »
"Manufacturers will be able to rely on such technology in order to keep within Euro 4 guidelines, if they're willing to invest the money to do so. It'[ highly likely that Moto Guzzi will follow the lead of Harley-Davidson and BMW. Whether Ducati does so for just a single model, the Scrambler, remains to be seen......."

http://www.therideadvice.com/why-the-future-of-air-cooled-engines-isnt-too-hot/


Not a fan of watercooling.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 11:22:55 AM by Penderic »

Offline leafman60

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2015, 07:19:26 AM »
I expect a well-designed hybrid water/air cooling design from Guzzi.

Harley-Davidson has shown that this can be done while preserving the characteristics of an air-cooled engine. In fact, the size of the water-cooling radiator may be no more than the size of the accepted oil-cooling radiators on many bikes, including the Guzzi.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 07:20:06 AM by leafman60 »

Offline Murray

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2015, 07:47:05 AM »
I expect a well-designed hybrid water/air cooling design from Guzzi.

Harley-Davidson has shown that this can be done while preserving the characteristics of an air-cooled engine. In fact, the size of the water-cooling radiator may be no more than the size of the accepted oil-cooling radiators on many bikes, including the Guzzi.

To be Honest I'd really prefer if they avoid a half arsed half baked engineering solution simply to try and appease some peoples vanity. People that don't want to buy a water cooled bike aren't going to buy a hybrid combination of the two anyway. If they are going to do it they should do it properly with a complete ground up design I'd suggest a Lemans/MGS-02 (whatever else you'd like to dub it) model line would most likely be the spearhead for it as people attracted to that kind of machine will be more accepting of non traditional engineering.

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2015, 08:59:12 AM »
H2o is not necessarily needed to pass Euro 4, the current 1400 is certified e4.
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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2015, 08:59:12 AM »

Offline charlie b

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2015, 09:03:48 AM »
Interesting that many accept the full blown electronics suite on a current Goose but balk at water cooling because it isn't 'traditional'?

No, I would not the water pump look of the old CX500, but, they could go water cooled and still keep the 'look'.
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Offline lrutt

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2015, 09:09:41 AM »
for me it's not just a matter of water cooling not being traditional, it just looks like hell. plain blank water jackets and all that ugly plumbing. The water cooled duc monsters are horrible looking.

I'd rather have those cheesy looking fake fins on a water jacket and well hidden plumbing. No reason they couldn't do that if they really wanted to. but then again, as HD does it, the vast majority of heat is produced in the head so optimize your water cooling to take care of the primary heat sources and minimize it's impact visually. Sounds like a real winner to me to be honest.

But due to all the damned electronics, I'll likely never own a bike newer than my carbed 2006 Triumph Scrambler.
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Offline LowRyter

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2015, 09:20:55 AM »
Harley had to cool it's heads because they covered under the seat and not in the airflow.

BMW heads were in the airflow but got water cooling.

Looks like I am going in circles here. 
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Offline acogoff

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2015, 09:23:59 AM »
     To me water cooling is a better path than the current critical super zoot oil needed for the newer engine longevity and a cooler system that has not been thought through being not engineered for all temperature conditions encountered. Water cooling could get the new guzzis back to the point where yak fat could again be the oil required and ludites like me may consider buying new again.
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Offline Guido Valvole

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2015, 10:26:57 AM »
Porsche is another who started with liquid-cooled heads. In race cars. And old-school 911 owners were just as anti-water cooling as any motorcycle people. They eventually got over it.

Those of us old enough to consider a motorcycle as motor + cycle and who like to see all the parts are not the current majority. When it's buried under plastic, who cares what it looks like? Same with cars -- with very few exceptions, the engine is now hidden under a plastic cover. Designed with no eye to esthetics, pure industrial function.

Ugh, give me bevelhead Ducks, Guzzis, Britbikes and for four wheels, Alfas, Jaguars, and old Ferraris and Maseratis.
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Offline jas67

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2015, 10:53:09 AM »
....
Ugh, give me bevelhead Ducks, Guzzis, Britbikes and for four wheels, Alfas, Jaguars, and old Ferraris and Maseratis.
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« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 10:53:33 AM by jas67 »
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Penderic

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2015, 11:31:18 AM »
Guzzi was thinking of alternates to cooling with water.



Looks like Mother Goose tried to find an alternative to the plumbing and big radiator look of a water cooled bike. Dont know if the looks are any better.  :shocked:

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2015, 11:46:33 AM »
Computers AND a water cooled engine in a Moto Guzzi!  Shocking.
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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2015, 12:07:01 PM »
Moto Guzzi is already able to adequately cool the engine. Some water cooled bikes' engines run very hot and when you look at the temperature ranges they encounter there are some wild swings. Few motorcycles engines maintain a stable engine temp, including the water cooled ones. The uber tourers are better at it but then have so much mass they are more car line in the engine department anyway.

Your car engine sits in the middle of the temp gauge mostly, even in heavy stop and go traffic. I have yet to see a motorcycle that can do the same outside of the 6 cyl gold Wing. Harley's can't and neither can any of the sport tourers. You can idle a car engine for hours, a diesel for days and the temp needle sits there. Idle a water cooled bike for more than a few minutes and watch the temps. They aren't even close to being stable.

That doesn't mean it isn't good but it isn't a panacea either.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 12:07:38 PM by Norge Pilot »

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2015, 12:53:14 PM »
Guzzi was thinking of alternates to cooling with water.



Looks like Mother Goose tried to find an alternative to the plumbing and big radiator look of a water cooled bike. Dont know if the looks are any better.  :shocked:

You know that's just cosmetic crap slapped on a regular 1200 8v by Pierre Terblanche, right?
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Offline charlie b

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2015, 01:17:28 PM »
Moto Guzzi is already able to adequately cool the engine. Some water cooled bikes' engines run very hot and when you look at the temperature ranges they encounter there are some wild swings. Few motorcycles engines maintain a stable engine temp, including the water cooled ones. The uber tourers are better at it but then have so much mass they are more car line in the engine department anyway.

Your car engine sits in the middle of the temp gauge mostly, even in heavy stop and go traffic. I have yet to see a motorcycle that can do the same outside of the 6 cyl gold Wing. Harley's can't and neither can any of the sport tourers. You can idle a car engine for hours, a diesel for days and the temp needle sits there. Idle a water cooled bike for more than a few minutes and watch the temps. They aren't even close to being stable.

That doesn't mean it isn't good but it isn't a panacea either.

My dumb little NT700V (Deauville) would idle for at least 20 min with needle staying put.  Fan motor kicked in when you slow down to a stop.  Must have been a big enough fan for the job.
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Offline yackee

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2015, 01:53:54 PM »
Are there any water-cooled bikes out there in which the manufacturer placed the radiator somewhere other than directly behind the front fork? I guess that would give the greatest air flow, but could you get enough cooling mounting a radiator in a more hidden area? Or hiding the radiator somewhere (under the seat? in front of the rear tire?), and using a small fan to blow air across it? Can you make a water-cooled bike without a gigantic square thing sticking out?

I'd be interested in seeing photos of any alternatives, or photos of what folks think is the best stylistic solution to ugly-radiator problem on a "naked" bike.

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2015, 02:04:50 PM »
Interesting that many accept the full blown electronics suite on a current Goose but balk at water cooling because it isn't 'traditional'?

For ME, it's NOT about tradition.

It's about:

1. Aesthetics - cleaner more simplistic lines.
2. Maintenance - no coolant to change periodically or to drain when doing valve adjustments, no pump, thermostat, or radiator, and fewer hoses to worry about replacing.
3. Need - my bikes all make enough power and run amazingly clean compared to bike of a barely a decade ago. I just don't personally have the NEED for any perceived benefit of water-cooling.

So I prefer to stick to air-cooled bikes, and will, as long as I can.

That's not to say that I completely dismiss the possibility of owning another water-cooled bike in the future... the Scout is probably the only current contender for that spot in the garage though.
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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2015, 02:15:33 PM »
Are there any water-cooled bikes out there in which the manufacturer placed the radiator somewhere other than directly behind the front fork? I guess that would give the greatest air flow, but could you get enough cooling mounting a radiator in a more hidden area? Or hiding the radiator somewhere (under the seat? in front of the rear tire?), and using a small fan to blow air across it? Can you make a water-cooled bike without a gigantic square thing sticking out?

I'd be interested in seeing photos of any alternatives, or photos of what folks think is the best stylistic solution to ugly-radiator problem on a "naked" bike.

Something to keep in mind is that the radiators put off a lot of heat.  it's bad enough for the rider with the radiator out front.  If you put that radiator under the rider, it's going to be a warm ride.

HD has put it's radiators outboard in the crashbar/leg guards on its big touring bikes.

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2015, 02:37:26 PM »

  Why do we like the look of the grill on a '32 Ford,  '40 Ford,  '49 Merc,  etc,  but we can't like any design on a bike? ?    :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

Offline Guido Valvole

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2015, 02:43:55 PM »
@ jas67 - yeah, that works!
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Penderic

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2015, 03:01:42 PM »
Those Frozen Norges up north dont need water cooling.


 :azn:

Penderic

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2015, 03:23:36 PM »
Some radiator ideas from CPU hardware...








Maybe use those spokes on the front wheel of a motorcycle as cooling fins?  :boozing:
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 03:24:25 PM by Penderic »

Online bad Chad

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2015, 03:31:29 PM »
It's a motorcycle, there is no better use for an air cooled motor that I can think of.  A cleanly designed motorcycle has a motor that can take advantage of the fact that it is essentially a motor, with frame and two wheels hanging on either end, that being the case suits air cooling perfectly.  Why muddle things up with extra plumbing and ugly?

In my mind there are few applications better suited for air cooling than a motorcycle, why F"ck it up?
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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2015, 03:42:17 PM »
Are there any water-cooled bikes out there in which the manufacturer placed the radiator somewhere other than directly behind the front fork? I guess that would give the greatest air flow, but could you get enough cooling mounting a radiator in a more hidden area? Or hiding the radiator somewhere (under the seat? in front of the rear tire?), and using a small fan to blow air across it? Can you make a water-cooled bike without a gigantic square thing sticking out?

I'd be interested in seeing photos of any alternatives, or photos of what folks think is the best stylistic solution to ugly-radiator problem on a "naked" bike.

One reason you don't put radiators behind or in front of tires is because of things getting picked up and thrown into the radiator or if you have a fan there, the fan.

There are all kinds of ways to put a cooling system on a bike so that you'd never even see it. That costs a lot of money in design and also drives up manufacturing costs. At the sales volume of MG, that makes it kind of difficult to recover the costs unless you use one system across many models.

On a MG engine though, the generator cover could be extended to house a radiator, make it thicker so to speak and grill it to look unobtrusive. The big black cover is already there, on some models so is a large oil coiler hanging on the lower end. Get rid of all that and put a combination oil and water cooler and make it look almost like the generator cover. Few people would probably notice the difference. The rest of it isn't that difficult to hide, others have already done that work.

Offline sturgeon

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2015, 05:56:44 PM »
I'd be interested in seeing photos of any alternatives, or photos of what folks think is the best stylistic solution to ugly-radiator problem on a "naked" bike.

Not quite naked, but pretty close ... I like the look of the rad on my F800GS. And it works well.

The rads on my dirt bike are well hidden beside the gas tank. That's more for protection than aesthetics tho'.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 06:01:53 PM by sturgeon »
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Offline threebrits

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2015, 07:06:19 PM »
Are there any water-cooled bikes out there in which the manufacturer placed the radiator somewhere other than directly behind the front fork? I guess that would give the greatest air flow, but could you get enough cooling mounting a radiator in a more hidden area? Or hiding the radiator somewhere (under the seat? in front of the rear tire?), and using a small fan to blow air across it? Can you make a water-cooled bike without a gigantic square thing sticking out?

I'd be interested in seeing photos of any alternatives, or photos of what folks think is the best stylistic solution to ugly-radiator problem on a "naked" bike.

Kawasaki Vulcan 900's have a decently obscured radiator.  It's still in the front, but recessed between the forks and blacked out.   There is a fan that blows air forward when stopped in traffic.  It's bearable.
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Offline Murray

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2015, 07:35:56 PM »
Are there any water-cooled bikes out there in which the manufacturer placed the radiator somewhere other than directly behind the front fork?

I'd be interested in seeing photos of any alternatives, or photos of what folks think is the best stylistic solution to ugly-radiator problem on a "naked" bike.

Under the pillion seat

As in my previous post most of the objections are purely for vanity's sake.

Offline charlie b

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2015, 08:04:02 PM »
For ME, it's NOT about tradition.

It's about:

1. Aesthetics - cleaner more simplistic lines.
2. Maintenance - no coolant to change periodically or to drain when doing valve adjustments, no pump, thermostat, or radiator, and fewer hoses to worry about replacing.
3. Need - my bikes all make enough power and run amazingly clean compared to bike of a barely a decade ago. I just don't personally have the NEED for any perceived benefit of water-cooling.

So I prefer to stick to air-cooled bikes, and will, as long as I can.

That's not to say that I completely dismiss the possibility of owning another water-cooled bike in the future... the Scout is probably the only current contender for that spot in the garage though.


I agree somewhat on the looks and need.  But, maintenance?  There just isn't any to speak of.  I am one who does not believe in flushing the systems on a regular basis so only maintenance was maybe a hose every 50-100k miles.

Yes, there are more parts and that means more possiblities of failure, but, it's no more likely to fail than the bevel drive on your Stone.

Unless of course, MG does a poor job of designing the system.  :D
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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2015, 08:09:59 PM »
My dumb little NT700V (Deauville) would idle for at least 20 min with needle staying put.  Fan motor kicked in when you slow down to a stop.  Must have been a big enough fan for the job.

If the fan came on then there was quite a bit of a temp swing. Fans come on not when the temps are normal but when they are reaching to higher thresholds and need extra cooling. Like I said, some bikes can do it, not that many. I've liked the water cooling on the bikes I've had that used it. One blasted more heat from the radiator than probably any Guzzi blasts from the heads. In certain conditions it was like a heat gun aimed at your legs.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 08:15:07 PM by Norge Pilot »

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Re: Water Cooling for 2017?
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2015, 08:23:48 PM »
I agree somewhat on the looks and need.  But, maintenance?  There just isn't any to speak of.  I am one who does not believe in flushing the systems on a regular basis so only maintenance was maybe a hose every 50-100k miles.

Yes, there are more parts and that means more possiblities of failure, but, it's no more likely to fail than the bevel drive on your Stone.

Unless of course, MG does a poor job of designing the system.  :D

Well, you may not believe in flushing the cooling system, but in my career I've seen some pretty badly scaled cooling systems. And I've had a water-cooled bike stick a thermostat and start overheating. And I've patched a coolant hose with duct tape and a piece of exhaust pipe.

Like I said, it offers me NOTHING I need. There's literally no benefit in it for me, so why should I embrace it?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 05:58:23 AM by Kev m »
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