Brand new Norge failure

[wannaGuzzi]

Bought a brand new 2014 Norge GT 8V August 1st.  Rode her from the dealer to my house (about 50 miles), always under 5000 rpm.  Parked the bike inside the garage over night.  The next morning it does not start.

Had the bike towed back to the dealer.  The determined a fuse (Fuse B I think for the starter engine), put in a new fuse, and started the engine several times - no problem.  When I asked why the fuse blew I was told "they sometines just do, then they never blow again."

I was not happy that they didn't even attempt to find the underlying cause when I picked the bike up a second time.  Same ride: straight home from the dealer.  Parked the bike in the garage, and let it cool down.  3 hours later I try to start the bike.  I does not start!

I check and the same fuse blew again.  I put in the spare, now the bike starts fine, but I'm willing to bet money if I ride her again, she'll fail again.  What could cause this?

Thanks for your input!

[Bill Hagan]

As you are no doubt frustrated by this, I'll chime in, FWIW (i.e., very little), 'til the smart folks see this and say something ... uhm ... smart. 

I have a 2007 Norge with 65K miles.  Love it.  My brother has had a '12 and now a '14 Norge.  His have had near-zero issues.  Mine, uhm, a bit, including one similar to what you say is happening to yours.

My own issue was related to the "Startus Interruptus" problem, over which many electrons have died on this forum.

Not sure if the newer machines still have the byzantine wiring from battery to ignition switch to starter and back through your dishwasher  as did mine and others.  Surely not.  Oh, wait, It's Mandello. Maybe.

If so, this is an easy, albeit understandably annoying fix for a new owner, i.e., the kit.

I'll let the brighter bulbs here explain more ... or say that yours is something else entirely ... but this will give you something to ponder in the meantime.

OBTW, where are you located?

Best wishes for a rapid fix of this issue and to many miles of smiles on that Norge.  Just did a 3-day-660 miler, all on back roads, and ⅔ two-up.  What a sweet machine.

Bill

[Idontwantapickle]

It is warranty, demand it be properly repaired. It's all on them. If they balk rat them out to Piaggio and go to another dealer if you can.
Sorry you've had this problem. I, for one, have had no issues of this nature with mine that weren't just the battery being bad.

Hunter

[Bob Wegman]

I seem to remember someone on here having an issue with a fuse burn out after they started the engine either on a Norge or a Stelvio. It may have been( John in Pa).  I believe the problem turned out to be a wire that connected to the headlight chafed on the bodywork or something in that area and caused a short.

[ibis1]

This should not be too difficult to sort out. If you have access to a wiring diagram, you may be able to find the issue yourself. I realize it's under warranty, but might be worth taking a look and possibly save you the trip back to the dealer. Find the fuse in the diagram and follow the colored wire on the output side of the fuse to it's final destination. Good luck.

[Bill Hagan]

I seem to remember someone on here having an issue with a fuse burn out after they started the engine either on a Norge or a Stelvio. It may have been( John in Pa).  I believe the problem turned out to be a wire that connected to the headlight chafed on the bodywork or something in that area and caused a short.

Bob,

Think that was a recall on firstgen Norges.

http://tuonozone.com/motorcycle-talk/199-moto-guzzi-norge-recall-print.html
Got mine fixed under that recall.

But, issue could be back if the Mandellan who assembles that section is on the line again after a few years on disability and didn't get the memo.   

Bill

[Idontwantapickle]

Bought a brand new 2014 Norge GT 8V August 1st. .

 When I asked why the fuse blew I was told "they sometines just do, then they never blow again."

I was not happy that they didn't even attempt to find the underlying cause when I picked the bike up a second time.  Same ride: straight home from the dealer.  Parked the bike in the garage, and let it cool down.  3 hours later I try to start the bike.  It does not start.

This just bugs me no end. Fuses blow for a reason and the bike is BRAND NEW but they just shined him on. That is bad form. 

Hunter

[elvisboy77]

Bought a brand new 2014 Norge GT 8V August 1st.  Rode her from the dealer to my house (about 50 miles), always under 5000 rpm.  Parked the bike inside the garage over night.  The next morning it does not start.

Had the bike towed back to the dealer.  The determined a fuse (Fuse B I think for the starter engine), put in a new fuse, and started the engine several times - no problem.  When I asked why the fuse blew I was told "they sometines just do, then they never blow again."

I was not happy that they didn't even attempt to find the underlying cause when I picked the bike up a second time.  Same ride: straight home from the dealer.  Parked the bike in the garage, and let it cool down.  3 hours later I try to start the bike.  I does not start!

I check and the same fuse blew again.  I put in the spare, now the bike starts fine, but I'm willing to bet money if I ride her again, she'll fail again.  What could cause this?

Thanks for your input!

That is so frustrating.  As others have said, hang in there, when you get it figured out you will be glad you got a Guzzi!  If it makes you feel any better, my brand new car was in the shop 4 times in the first month, for windshield wipers!  Omg.

[LowRyter]

I hope you are carrying an extra fuse. 

[Vasco DG]

It is unfortunately a fairly common problem. It's generally caused by a mixture of the Byzantine wiring that Guzzi uses to fire the starter which wanders up and down the bike like a lost soul before being asked to deliver a substantial current to the starter solenoid and poor or dirty earth mounts.

Why Guzzi persist with this absurd system heaven only knows but it's the same crap layout they have been using for forty years!

There are two simple fixes. First just stick in a higher amperage fuse, (After checking and cleaning the earth mount which is under the starter cover and making sure the battery terminals are clean.) the second is to run a fused feed directly from the battery positive to the delivery side of the relay ensuring that the main current draw doesn't wander up and down the bike through many resistive connections.

Pete

[wannaGuzzi]

As you are no doubt frustrated by this, I'll chime in, FWIW (i.e., very little), 'til the smart folks see this and say something ... uhm ... smart. 

I have a 2007 Norge with 65K miles.  Love it.  My brother has had a '12 and now a '14 Norge.  His have had near-zero issues.  Mine, uhm, a bit, including one similar to what you say is happening to yours.

My own issue was related to the "Startus Interruptus" problem, over which many electrons have died on this forum.

Not sure if the newer machines still have the byzantine wiring from battery to ignition switch to starter and back through your dishwasher  as did mine and others.  Surely not.  Oh, wait, It's Mandello. Maybe.

If so, this is an easy, albeit understandably annoying fix for a new owner, i.e., the kit.

I'll let the brighter bulbs here explain more ... or say that yours is something else entirely ... but this will give you something to ponder in the meantime.

OBTW, where are you located?

Best wishes for a rapid fix of this issue and to many miles of smiles on that Norge.  Just did a 3-day-660 miler, all on back roads, and â…” two-up.  What a sweet machine.

Bill

Hi Bill, I'm in Los Angeles, about 50 north east of Thousand Oaks where I bought the bike.

[wannaGuzzi]

This just bugs me no end. Fuses blow for a reason and the bike is BRAND NEW but they just shined him on. That is bad form. 

Hunter

Amen!

[wannaGuzzi]

It is unfortunately a fairly common problem. It's generally caused by a mixture of the Byzantine wiring that Guzzi uses to fire the starter which wanders up and down the bike like a lost soul before being asked to deliver a substantial current to the starter solenoid and poor or dirty earth mounts.

Why Guzzi persist with this absurd system heaven only knows but it's the same crap layout they have been using for forty years!

There are two simple fixes. First just stick in a higher amperage fuse, (After checking and cleaning the earth mount which is under the starter cover and making sure the battery terminals are clean.) the second is to run a fused feed directly from the battery positive to the delivery side of the relay ensuring that the main current draw doesn't wander up and down the bike through many resistive connections.

Pete

The thought of me running a fused feed etc. is so scary!  I have zero talent as a mechanic.  But the higher amp fuse solution sounds great.  In any event, I will first try another warranty fix, then another dealer if this one can't figure it out, then perhaps I'll work up the courage to tinker with it myself, but more likely I won't.

[wannaGuzzi]

That is so frustrating.  As others have said, hang in there, when you get it figured out you will be glad you got a Guzzi!  If it makes you feel any better, my brand new car was in the shop 4 times in the first month, for windshield wipers!  Omg.

Thanks for the encouragement.  That Norge is so beautiful!  I got the maroon version, and it rides like a dream when/while it works.  Thank God I have another bike I can use while the Guzzi get's debugged.

Thanks again!

[toma nova]

Hi Bill, I'm in Los Angeles, about 50 north east of Thousand Oaks where I bought the bike.

I know LA is huge, but you can IM Todd Eagan on his site, guzzitech.com - he's in Malibu (I think) and can help you with the Startus Interruptus improvement (as the direct wiring to the starter relay is known).

Hope you get this sorted quickly so you can pile the miles on.

Tom

[radguzzi]

Odd indeed.

I owned an '07 Norge since new in late that year, 45K miles on the clock and sold it to purchase a Stelvio but that is beside the point.

The only time I EVER experienced a fuse go out is the day that Sue Ellen and I went to the Portland Harley dealer to purchase an ElectraGlide.  She has long not been comfortable on some of the Guzzis that we have owned, I told her that she would be comfy on an HD so we tried out a few and bought one, she loves it.  On the test ride she leaned in and said "You're gonna buy this thing aren't you...?"   

The day that we made the deal we rode the Norge down to Portland to both try out the HD that we bought and seal the deal. 

As we tried to leave the Norge would not start.  Right in front of the Harley dealership.  One of the service guys came out and we soon discovered the blown fuse, put in the spare and rode home. 

We actually found the situation funny as the Italian Beauty could not stand the fact that we were bringing home a Harley... 

Never happened again not has it happened to the fellow that now owns the Norge.

I know this diatribe does nothing for your issue but I thought I would share.

Best,
Rob

 

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

I don't know if this is for sure 'startus interruptus' because I don't think that generally blows the fuse??

But if you want to tackle the fused led to the starter relay, this post outlines the process.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=76646.msg1207064#msg1207064

That entire thread is about the MPH Cycles fix for this (known) issue. That post just demonstrates the DIY fix

If you use search, my fix was inspired by Kev's posts on the subject, they are very helpful as well

[bratman2]

I used Kev's post to fix my startus interuptus myself. Mine did not blow a fuse though, it just went click. One day two years ago riding into work a coworker came over to tell me I had no tail lights, blown fuse. Replaced it and it has never happened again. Some times you just get lucky. Good luck and don't give up hope. Looks like the dealer would have at least checked it out good first before sending you on your way!

[canuguzzi]

When a dealer tells you something you know is BS and you say oh well and take it not much you can say later. Say something right then and there and don't accept the BS answer. It can be uncomfortable to question what you're being told but don't worry about it, just look at them straight in the face and tell them to do the job right.

You paid a lot of money for the Norge, demand what you paid for. By doing that, everyone including you benefit. Warranty is not a favor to you, you paid for it. Make them pick up the bike or call the roadside assistance that came as part of the package and make them take care of you. Owning a Norge isn't a philanthropy to help the dealer.

As someone else said, if they don't service it right, rat them out.

[Trialsman]

Have them check the wiring to the oil cooling fan.  If the sensor wire is in the wrong sump hole the wire is too long and will short out in the fan. I had that problem when I picked up mine and it left me stranded with the blown fuse for the starter.  Happily, after a warranty fix,  I just got back from a 1400mi trip down to the Dragon and it was absolutely perfect.

[ohiorider]

I don't know if this is for sure 'startus interruptus' because I don't think that generally blows the fuse??

My thought as well on this topic.  Never knew 'startus interruptus' to cause a blown fuse, at least on my 12S

I had 'startus interruptus' issues with the 1200 Sport until I installed Todd Haven's kit.  Never an issue since that time.  Griso has not exhibited the 'no start' condition in 10,500 miles, but I have a kit from MPH I will install soon.

Now I did blow either one or both the 30A fuses early on, trying to determine if the cigarette lighter plug under the saddle was switched or unswitched.  Shorted out the plug, and blew the fuses.  Nothing worked with the 30A blown.  Never claimed to be good with electricity or a multimeter!

[kirb]

I seem to remember someone on here having an issue with a fuse burn out after they started the engine either on a Norge or a Stelvio. It may have been( John in Pa).  I believe the problem turned out to be a wire that connected to the headlight chafed on the bodywork or something in that area and caused a short.

Stelvio NTXs have a factory 'flaw' that the Aux lamps are not fused. The Hella lamps used are prone to shorting out due to the design and vibration. The fuse that blows is the 30A main fuse that is related to the alternator charging circuit. This leaves you stranded when the battery dies miles down the road after the fuse blows. I came up with a plug and play kit that AF1 sells.

Stelvio also had a TSB to fix the routing of a cable around the starter. Both of these are Stelvio problems.

Good luck with troubleshooting your Norge...

[Kiwi_Roy]

It is unfortunately a fairly common problem. It's generally caused by a mixture of the Byzantine wiring that Guzzi uses to fire the starter which wanders up and down the bike like a lost soul before being asked to deliver a substantial current to the starter solenoid and poor or dirty earth mounts.

Why Guzzi persist with this absurd system heaven only knows but it's the same crap layout they have been using for forty years!

There are two simple fixes. First just stick in a higher amperage fuse, (After checking and cleaning the earth mount which is under the starter cover and making sure the battery terminals are clean.) the second is to run a fused feed directly from the battery positive to the delivery side of the relay ensuring that the main current draw doesn't wander up and down the bike through many resistive connections.

Pete

As Pete says, the wiring is the problem, the starter solenoid inrush current by calculation should be around 50 Amps. I don't have a Norge but I measured the inrush on my V11 at 37 Amps through a 15 Amp fuse. I really don't think the factory is aware of this high current, they don't show the solenoid with 2 coils on any schematics.
The high current should only last about 1/10 of a second. I did a test on my V11 and I found it would blow the 15 Amp fuse in less than 1/2 second if the solenoid doesn't pull in.
 
How long has Startus Interuptus been spoiling the ownership of Guzzis, the factory should get it's act together and fix the stupid wiring.
Bung a 20 Amp fuse in the slot or even better cut the yellow wire at the relay and power it independent of the ignition switch like they did on the spine frame bikes (mine at least), you will be amazed what a difference it makes.



BTW, those with old Bosch starters, don't think you are immune, the Bosch has the same dual coil high inrush current problem, you should be powering the start relay around the ignition switch as well. It's a little tricky on bikes where the start relay feeds the headlight relay but still possible.

[Waltr]

   Before I make a statement here let me say this is why proper set up is so important to these bikes. I am in no way dismissing the responsibility of the dealer.
   That said I suspect you know that Thousand Oaks is no longer a Guzzi dealer.  Go on Moto Guzzi USA and see they do not list them any more as a dealer.  That is why you got a screaming good deal when you bought your bike.  In fact they were selling bikes for thousands below normal dealer cost.  I understood the company was in receivership and ordered to liquidate inventory in quick order.  I do not know the exact details and some of this may be rumor but if quacks like a duck and walks like a duck.....
    So you have a couple of choices. Find a qualified dealer  and get the service work done under warranty or agree to pay a few bucks to a dealer in lieu of proper PDI.   Either way if you got the deals I saw them offering you are way ahead in the end.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I don't believe any amount of proper setup will fix the wiring.

It's badly designed, end of story.

[Edo]

I thought the startus interuptus problem was fixed on the newer Norges. I have a 2013 and when I called MPH last year about the "fix kit", they told told me it was no longer needed.
Is this true or not?

[Idontwantapickle]

It is unfortunately a fairly common problem. It's generally caused by a mixture of the Byzantine wiring that Guzzi uses to fire the starter which wanders up and down the bike like a lost soul before being asked to deliver a substantial current to the starter solenoid and poor or dirty earth mounts.

Why Guzzi persist with this absurd system heaven only knows but it's the same crap layout they have been using for forty years!

There are two simple fixes. First just stick in a higher amperage fuse, (After checking and cleaning the earth mount which is under the starter cover and making sure the battery terminals are clean.) the second is to run a fused feed directly from the battery positive to the delivery side of the relay ensuring that the main current draw doesn't wander up and down the bike through many resistive connections.

Pete

I agree that the wiring for this circuit could be better. But it is laid out like that for a reason. If the relay sticks then turning off the switch will cut the power. It is a failsafe, but not safe from failure! To serve its intended purpose it really needs a much better ignition switch.
I have witnessed the effects of a starter circuit that can't disengage and if you are lucky it will only cook the starter and battery. But that much current starts fires and that is a risk that any engineer will work to minimize and no manufacturer wants to have come back to bite them.
Now even though I understand it doesn't mean I would tolerate the no start condition that is common on bikes like my Norge, so I by-passed it with a fused wire from the battery. I suppose if mine ever fails to disengage it'll be the seat lock I need to operate, not the Ign Swx.

Hunter

[bratman2]

I thought that was the whole point of having an inline fuse coming from the battery for startus interuptus, prevent a melt down. Every case maybe slightly different, not that Guzzi mc don't have personality, but mine never blew the fuse. Just a click and no start. Battery was fully charged. Lucky for me I had already read about the symptoms and had the supplies already on hand to fix. Left overs from other minor electrical jobs.

Even luckier I am about 8% electrician if I round up, lol! Got you beat Ohiorider by 2-3%, lol!!

[Waltr]

I don't believe any amount of proper setup will fix the wiring.

It's badly designed, end of story.

  My Norge has no problem.  It was set up properly and battery and ground strap contacts are clean dressed.
 So I guess ignoring the corrosion that exists on the battery terminals as they are delivered and just slap them in the bike instead of taking a couple of minutes and sanding them off and applying dielectric grease would not help?  I do not know what is wrong with the original posters bike but I do know it is not a 'design' issue. If that was a case everyone would be complaining.
  I am not denying Pete is not 100% correct in his assessment of the starting circuit, just saying that something is wrong that needs to be found and we do not need to throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet.

[bad Chad]

If you start running your own wiring, and or put in a higher rated fuse, won't that kill your warranty?

Might solve your problem, but might give a dealer, or Piaggio reason to say NO if something else where to fail.