Changing air filter & speedo cable makes stator / rotor fail ?

[radguzzi]

Norm,
Check the grounds on the Bassa...  the main lug where it is attached to the frame/battery tray.  Remove that and clean it well before reattaching.  And of course the battery terminals.

Best,
Rob

[Kiwi_Roy]

Yep, BTDT. The charge light is pretty useless on that system.

From memory I think the only time the charge light comes on is if the motor is not spinning fast enough or one of the yellow wires is broken/off.
If the regulator is not powered up (12Volts on the black wire) there is no juice to turn on the charge light switch.
The charge light is fed from the headlight relay, if the headlight isn't on, the charge light and the regulator are both dead.


There are two diodes in the regulator, one between each yellow wire and the red output, check those with a diode tester.

[Wayne Orwig]

I come out to start the bike to go home, and no charge light, but turnover is just a trifle slower than usual. I make plans to monitor charge light on the way home. Which I do - no charge light showing.

So at a healthy, happy 75 mph in my flight corridor the bike goes " meh..." and starts running on one cylinder. Doesn't sound like a fuel sputter, but I respond as though it is, take the fortuitous exit to a downhill gas station. I add fuel and it's evident that's not my problem - it only takes a couple of gallons.

I press starter button and CLICK - silence.

After one tow truck and a double moonshine on ice here I sit...

As mentioned, the charge indicator on that bike is absolutely meaningless. In later years, they even dropped it from the dashboard.

First, check the bullet connectors at the upper end of the cable from the alternator. Those run hot and fail easily.
Second, check those bullet connectors.
Third, fuses etc.
Fourth, make sure all battery connections are tight.
Fifth, are the lights in the instruments working? I think those are the same power feed to the regulator. Nobody dinked with the speedometer cable or anything did they?

[Chuck in Indiana]

From memory I think the only time the charge light comes on is if the motor is not spinning fast enough or one of the yellow wires is broken/off.

The charge light comes on or doesn't depending on phases of the moon, as nearly as I can tell..    At any rate, it doesn't seem to know when the battery isn't getting charged. I made it to within walking distance of home one time. It had been running on one cylinder for a minute or so. After I charged the battery, the light came on. 

[Penderic]

At the same time? The worse is yet to come.

Now you've done it.
 

[normzone]

So a minor update here - I've not been fully productive this weekend.

But I bought a battery charger and pulled the AGM out, charged it overnight.

Put it back in, dressed all the terminals with sandpaper before hookup, and compared the voltage readings to when the battery was new.

State     New      Now

OFF      12.91      12.75

KEY
ON       12.48       12.28

STARTER
TURNING 11.7      11.25

IDLE      12.6        12.15

CRUISE
REVS     14.2        12.15


That last number tells a tale - she no charging.

I had difficulty reinstalling the tank when I was done with the speedo cable / air filter, got a little pushy on it and it went into position. I don't recall anything 'lectric in that area but I guess I should pull the tank and check.

[normzone]

OOOOOkayyy...

I pulled the tank. No wiring was visibly damaged from the previous removal and assertive replacement.

I pulled the stator/rotor cover. Yup, there's one under there, same as last time I looked. No broken wires.

I pulled the voltage regulator / horn mount configuration - did you  know the horn brackets are marked " L ", I assume for left since it was on that side, and " H ", for...I dunno, "here" ?

The regulator is all polymer sealed up, and all the wires coming out of it are intact. The bullet connectors / yellow wires are in great shape, no corrosion at all.

There's a ... pyramidal ? Trapezioidal ? ... plate under that that has some wires behind it. I pulled that, and found what looks like a ground lug that has apparently NEVER been connected. Not sure where that goes yet.

So my hopes are dashed. I wanted to find a simple, stupid, self-induced broken wire, but it looks as though I have an honest-to-god electrical malfunction.

I told my wife it would probably require a new rotor, stator, regulator and battery, and I could probably fix it for a grand. She told me to go test ride new bikes. Neither of us is really convinced of what we're saying, but that's the Sunday report from Escondido.

I thought about beginning the cannisterectomy, but it turns out that the inconvenient doodad that I wanted to remove first is the fuel filter.   

 

[Penderic]

Me too. I have the Ducati system in my V7. Single phase alternator with 2 yellow output wires.

My AGM battery was giving me some trouble holding a charge lately and I had been keeping it on a trickle charger when not riding.

Then, a month ago it would barely start the bike and then on the last ride my bikes system voltmeter dropped below 12.6 volts and no amount of revs would increase it. Normal at peak revs is over 14.5v. 

I have a VoltOhmMeter and did some tests. The coils on the V7classic are easy to get to and tested OK. Battery was kaput. Used another battery to start and run the bike and test the regulator voltages in and out. No out.

Ordered a new Maintenance Free battery and looked online for a cheap voltage regulator replacement. Stock price was over $300, but an aftermarket universal replacement could be gotten for about $120 - 140 and one place had the replacement listed for under $40!!  They come with an extra yellow wire for a 3 phase coil system but it is not used for the V7.

I ordered the really cheap one and also the universal replacement one for $130 ..just to have as a backup, but the cheap works fine so far. The cheap one came in a sealed bag and the polarity contact terminals in the connected had to be reversed. Took all of 20 seconds to do that. The more expensive one comes in a nice shiny box and looks exactly the same - cept it has the polarity wires in the correct connector locations.

Maybe you can get one cheaply that fits your Bassa too. Good luck!


Celox branded. $39 cheapo for the V7classic but with green and red wires reversed! I can fix that easy. Bargooon!


Electrosport branded. $130 with the correct wiring and comes in a nice box. Backup inventory or return for credit? hmmm I'll keep it!

[Kiwi_Roy]

The regulator MUST be well grounded, all the charge current passes back through the chassis - regulator - alternator.
The horn bracket is not well grounded, a wire about 6" long from regulator case to a timing cover screw will take care of that.

Test the Voltage on the red wire where the regulator connects to the loom, it should show the battery Voltage
Ease the black/white pair out a little and check the black wire has 12 Volts on it with the key On
Test the charge light by grounding the white wire to chassis.
Test the two internal diodes with a diode tester (usually a symbol like --->|--- on your meter) it should be ~ 0.5 Volts from each yellow to red.

 

[normzone]

Thanks all for your help to date. So far chasing wires shows none damaged, and cleaning grounds is not changing the situation. Tonight I'll work on the ground wire improvement that [Kiwi_Roy] mentions.

[Kiwi_Roy], thanks for your help, and please pardon my inexperience, but are these tests -

" Test the Voltage on the red wire where the regulator connects to the loom, it should show the battery Voltage
Ease the black/white pair out a little and check the black wire has 12 Volts on it with the key On
Test the charge light by grounding the white wire to chassis.
Test the two internal diodes with a diode tester (usually a symbol like --->|--- on your meter) it should be ~ 0.5 Volts from each yellow to red. "

- (other than the one highlighted) to be performed on a shut down system, or key on, or running, or ?

I must confess that based on [Penderic]'s experience I'm tempted to simply acquire a voltage regulator and install it and see if all my problems go away. I realize this is a bad idea for all the usual reasons - I've not yet figured out what the problem really is, I could install a new regulator only to see it killed by some other problem, etc. But if I need a regulator, time is passing by, and life is short.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The first couple of tests you can do with the key on, not running.

The Diode test is done on the regulator with it unplugged.

It wouldn't hurt to order a regulator but order a single phase one (2 yellow wires)
Electrosport ESR510 is a good one I think
http://www.electrosport.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=esr510
It does away with the flakey Voltage reference from the headlight circuit.

[normzone]

Electrosport, here in San Diego, just over in Oceanside.

The V/R currently on the bike has a pair of yellow wires, a pair of reds, and a pair of blacks.

Neither the Electrosport ESR510 or the 515 have that same configuration. This is one of those areas where I have to be smarter than the black box, isn't it ? I hate those moments.

[Kiwi_Roy]

On the ESR515 the pair of yellows go to the alternator - same as the ESR510
The ESR515 has one red - the ESR510 only has 1 red also
(the Ducati had 2 reds but they were joined together in the bullet connector)
The ESR515 black is the Voltage reference - The ESR510 has this internal
 
The other wire is usually white for the charge light - the ESR510 has that also
Like the Ducati the ESR515 needs a good ground - The ESR510 doesn't need a ground it has an extra green wire, that's battery negative.

ESR515 same as the Ducati direct replacement. -    ESR510 direct connected
Zero current draw when the key is off                     Draws about 0.3 milliamps with key off
The charge light relies on headlight circuit               I think the charge light is independant

I went with the ESR510 just to avoid the problems with the Voltage reference, I have to disconnect it (pull fuse)
over the winter otherwise it flattens the battery.

[normzone]

Ah...home again. Further examination reveals that what's on the bike currently is Ducati 343637

http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/edl450-voltrect.htm

[normzone]

Hey, the website says " USE OF ODYSSEY BATTERY ( DRY CELL DESIGN) AND LITHIUM IRON BATTERY NOT RECOMMENDED OR SUPPORTED FOR WARRANTY "

Does that dry cell verbiage refer to my AGM battery?

Some days I miss my Eldorado, my Volkswagen voltage regulator, my Volvo generator, and my good old NL-22.

[normzone]

Wondering if this Ducati voltage regulator was worthy of replacement...I pulled out the history file the P.O. gave me and summed it up in a spreadsheet, sorted it by date ... I did not list tires or oil changes.

Component    mileage    date      owner

bend shifter and replace bolts for front subframe       20020216    Phillip

crossover exhaust, Lafranconi, head pipe site with crossover & head clamps      20021121   Phillip

Map install      20021122    Phillip

Power commander, driving lamps, install exhaust and air box eliminator       20030130    Phillip

throttle sync, oil sender,     15400   20030704   Martin

Rear brake pads       20050310    Martin

Carrier bearing (u-joint) and rear pads   14025   20050331   Martin

Oil switch   21385   20060128   Martin

fuel pump   27537   20070913   Martin

Exhaust clamp   33134   20080718   Martin

Battery   33134   20080725   Martin

air filter   33136   20080728   Martin

Speedometer   36700   20081014   Martin

rear pads   38500   20100428   Martin

battery      20140213   Norman

rear shocks      20140327   Norman

front pads      20140415   Norman

air filter, speedometer cable   52000   20150824   Norman

battery      201141005   Norman


So no mention of a voltage regulator replacement on a bike bought in the summer of 2000 with 18 miles on it. There's not enough batteries in that lineup to cover all of them, so there must be some gaps.

Phillip kept it three years, Martin kept it eleven.

I guess that speaks pretty well for the voltage regulator.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I have pulled apart several of those, in each case one one of the lead had melted off one of the diodes, do the diode test.
They are actually a very good regulator IMHO, it's the Guzzi wiring that lets them down, the reference Voltage is not stable and the grounding is bad.
The reference on your bike is particuarly bad because it relies on a pristine ignition switch

[stick]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but I was able to use one of the "newer" 3 phase RR's in place of the single-phase (2-wire) stator on a 2002 LeMans, with good results (previously 12.5V to 14.2V just above idle).  And the only ground I'me using are the negative (green) wires that run right to the battery.   I just used 2 out of the 3 yellow wires on the RR (tape up the unused one).

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19170

The only downside is that there is no extra wires out of the RR to make the Gen. light on the dash work.
But for $40 ish for a used one, I'm very happy w/ it.

It's any RR from a newer Ducati - about year 2000 on up.  Ducati started using a 520W 3-ph stator on all models from then onward.  eBay is your friend!

[normzone]

OOOOOOkay...

I borrowed a meter capable of checking diodes, had the owner show me how to use it, and took another look at my regulator.

There's two yellow leads paired in heat shrink ending in two bullet connectors which mate up with the rotor/stator thingy. I hope they're an either-one-is-just-fine set, since I lost track of which of the regulator pair hooked to which of the stator/rotor pair. That was all hooked up just fine.

There's another set, black and white paired in heat shrink ending in a male/female connector that mates up to a similar connector that drops out of the main harness. That was all hooked up just fine.


Then there's two more red leads paired in heat shrink that end joined in a single male bullet connector.

This single male bullet connector was sticking up in space next to the main harness, where it had the option of being plugged into a single female connector. The option to plug into the female was not exercised (hey, we've all made that choice at one time or another, even though we were single).

AND coming out of the main harness at the same point is a lead about six inches long that ends in a ground lug, that looks as though it's never been hooked up. TFW ?   

So to further complicate matters, the diode meter, which I'd been lead to believe would show a small reading when testing one of those diode pairs in one order, and no reading when testing it in the other order, shows absolutely no reading on any of those three sets in any order of hookup.   

So while I have your attention, what the bleep is the little red tell-tale light-on-a-bracket mounted just ahead of the ECM just under the frame ?

We thank you for your support... 

[Kiwi_Roy]

The diode tester is used to check the regulator not the bike wiring the male yellow to the male red, test the meter first by touching the two leads together, should read zero Volts
Meter red lead goes to yellow, meter black lead goes to the red male, each yellow to red should read somewhere between 0.4 & 0.6 Volts
If you see nothing switch the meter leads and try again.

You said there was nothing plugged into the female red, that wont work its the regulator connection to the battery +, sometimes through a 30 Amp fuse.
If you have the fuse examine it closely for signs of discolouration, indication of a loose connection.

BTW the female red from the loom should have 12 Volts on it.

The ground lug you found comes from the battery negative and is supposed to be under the regulator mounting bolt however this has too much resistance so as well as that wire connect another short 12 or 14 gauge wire from the mounting bolt to a timing cover screw. Without a good ground the charging current has no way of getting back to the alternator.


The current goes from alternator yellow thru the regulator diode to red, to battery +, from battery negative to chassis, to regulator case, thru another special diode to the other yellow wire and back to the other end of the alternator coil, it changes direction 1,000 times a second at 5,000 revs

[normzone]

Well, dip me in seventy weight and roll me in pea gravel...

The joys of writing - I WAS testing the regulator, not the bike wiring, but you can't tell that from the way I wrote it in my previous post.

And when I test the regulator pair against pair as you say and not within a pair as I thought I was supposed to I get .477 twixt red and yellow.

I'd looked at all my fuses already and not signs of trouble there.

Bless you for the explanation of where that mystery ground lug came from.

And that red needs to be hooked up? I figured as much, else why put it there.

But then how did it get loose? I looked at all the routing and it doesn't seem like anything I could have knocked loose in my earlier speedometer cable / air filter adventure. But it doesn't look like something that would gradually vibrate loose either.

So 12V on the female red out of the harness - forgive my ignorance - from there to ground ? I'll check it tomorrow when it's light.

Is this going to turn out to be a loose(end) cable connector? I should be so lucky.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Diodes are good then, 0.477 on both? Sometimes one goes open due to overloading cutting the charge in half.
Some bikes have a 30 Amp fuse between the red wire and battery, the schematic doesn't show one but Luigi doesn't always read the comics.
As I say that factory ground wire is too small, when new the regulator may be grounded thru contact with the frame but down the road with
some corrosion it needs a better connection, if it has to rely on just that wire the charge Volts will be low, a 6" wire to the engine is ten times as good.
Yes 12 Volts between red and the chassis, or just fire it up with the red wire attached and check battery Volts.

BTW, Carl's drawing shows the red wire connected directly to the battery, trace the red wire along the bottom of the page to the ignition switch and back.
As a sparky I have a problem with unfused small wires like that on my bikes so I add a large capacity in-line fuse 40 or 50 Amps right at the battery, in
event of the wire chafing through to ground it will blow protecting the loom. The starter feed is man enough to look after itself
Also be aware that sometimes the ignition switch feed is not at the battery but off the starter solenoid live stud (where it says RED on the drawing)
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2000_Bassa.gif

Good Luck

[normzone]

I have been wondering how that red could have become disco.

I guess in fooling around with the V/R I could have yanked it loose. Or in pulling the worn out speedo cable I could have snagged it.

More tests tonight - work and heat minimize my parking lot time, damnit.

[normzone]

So, I'm beginning reassembly of what is theoretically a sound system/bike. Way too hot outside, so I work a little, come in and chill out, go work a little, repeat.

I've got a couple of Hella horns I removed from my wife's Corolla when it got rear ended/totaled. I figured I'd turn on the key, sound the stock horn, and test the Hella horns to verify that they're louder enough to make it worth swapping out.

Did you know that even with the tank off the bike, when you turn the key on the fuel pump attempts to pressurize the injector system? And that the fuel filter holds enough fuel to drench the engine in recently aspirated fuel ?

So I had to take another break and wait for some (a lot of) gas to evaporate. I then tried a comparison of both horns directly off the battery. I'm going to find some method of fitting the Hella horns. They hurt my ears - I'm glad I'll be wearing earplugs/helmet when I use them.

Back to the outside.

[nunzio]

Well OEM engineers work within different parameters/restraints than the Okie. OEM must produce a machine that works within the regulatory guidelines for noise and pollution emissions as well as often conservative reliability standards due to OEM warranty liabilities.

OEM is not always best for the performance-minded rider.

Cost...... Always being the number 1 factor!!!!!!

[Chuck in Indiana]

(hey, we've all made that choice at one time or another, even though we were single).

true, true.. 

So while I have your attention, what the bleep is the little red tell-tale light-on-a-bracket mounted just ahead of the ECM just under the frame ?

That little gizmo (technical term) is a primitive check engine light. You are supposed to sacrifice a chicken, spread some incense, and count the number and sequence of pulses it makes. Or something. It's supposed to tell you what is wrong with your electrical plumbing.

[normzone]

You got to be pulling my leg...for starters, which kind of incense? I can see seven boxes from where I'm sitting, and that's not counting the pine sap I collect and the odds and ends in the drawer.

And as for chicken, I have two free-range organic Rosie's legs in the frig - do I need an entire chicken, or will that do? Does searing followed by baking constitute sacrifice?

And does my owner's manual (I'm using it for a mouse pad) contain the key to those Cryptic Messages (my customer service guy's first band name) ? When I open the manual I see " First of all we wish to thank you for choosing this motorcycle of our production".

[normzone]

Okay, here's the update.

12 volts and change when idling, 13 and change at cruising revs. Doesn't sound like a fully functional something to me.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Did you know that even with the tank off the bike, when you turn the key on the fuel pump attempts to pressurize the injector system? And that the fuel filter holds enough fuel to drench the engine in recently aspirated fuel ?

Yes I knew that, it took doing it several times to get it through my skull though.

[normzone]

Thanks. It only took me twice.

The first time I went " Ohmygawdofcourseitd idthat".

Then thirty seconds later I went " Diditreallydothatih avetomakesure "

So I've verified that it's all hooked up and it doesn't work. New ground established...Hmmm, bedtime.

The moon is full, it's cooled off, and for the first time in decades I want to night ride. And my charging system is funked up. Oh well, at least I own a Guzzi.