V7 Classic with 4 valve heads, Dyno run

[pyoungbl]

Another thought to throw in here:  variable valve timing can spread the torque curve.  Ducati is doing that now and it seems to be a practical advancement.  Heck, cars have been using VVT for while now so it's not exactly bleeding edge technology.  If we go to a shorter stroke high cam 4V engine with VVT I think we'd see a nice compact, but powerful, engine that still has Guzzi character. This would be particularly nice on the SB.

On a related note, yesterday I was looking at a new Ducati head and noticed that it incorporates automatic compression relief for starting.  It's a really slick system that opens one exhaust valve just a bit for that first revolution of the crankshaft.  As soon as the engine fires the valve goes into normal mode.  Once I installed high compression pistons in my Multistrada it was obvious that the starter was not having fun, wish I had had compression release then!

Peter Y.

[Penderic]

So. How many of us will buy one just to hide it in a barn with zero miles on it, for 30years for some reason?

Are the people that do that, (and somebody will shirley), are they smart investors, eccentric collectors or people with "issues"? 

[Chuck in Indiana]

high cam 4V engine with VVT

I know we are talking about different engineers, now.. but.. lets face it. Every 4 valve engine they have built has had issues, not to mention variable valve timing.    

[mwrenn]

It won't narrow the band but rather expand the band (upward).  If you think they will significantly increase hp and keep torque where it currently is then you're mistaken. Everything will rise together and that pull you feel off the BB will come more into play on the SB (relatively speaking). 4-valve heads will keep it fueling in the upper rpm's better than 2-valve heads and it won't start giving up as quickly as the current Sb tends.

Interesting point.  Here is an overlay of the weakest run I did, compared to a stock 2013 V7.  The torque was significantly higher through the whole rpm range.  In fact, the max torque on the OHR comes up at 4580 rpm, a little sooner than the 2v, at 5100 rpm.  This is with the exact same displacement and the exact same cam profile.  You can also see how the horsepower keeps ramping up, all the way to the rev limiter.  Kind of cool to see exactly what more airflow is doing as compared to the two valve engine.  I like the heron head design too, its very simple and reliable.  That being said, if I bought a new V7, the first thing I would do is convert it to a four valve.....It makes that much difference.
With the numbers Chuck is pulling, I also think it would be a blast to put the drone heads on an EFI engine.  See how that compares to the 4 valve heads....    Then you could do data logging too!!  lol.

[Chuck in Indiana]

There is a perfect example to show why many Larios blew up.  Ace Mallot, who used to be a dealer and dealt with the problem back in the day told me that he was petty sure many failures were from simple over revving. It's still making more power at the red line, and would continue past. I know for a fact that it is super easy to over rev the 4 valve.

With the numbers Chuck is pulling, I also think it would be a blast to put the drone heads on an EFI engine.  See how that compares to the 4 valve heads....    Then you could do data logging too!!  lol.

Well, of course the Aero engine was injected. Supposedly, it made 63 hp. The prop reduction unit would induce power loss, too, as compared to the rear drive on the motorcycle, so that might be an attainable number. If Guzzi is truly working on a hemi small block..  .. maybe we'll find out.

[mwrenn]

There is a perfect example to show why many Larios blew up.  Ace Mallot, who used to be a dealer and dealt with the problem back in the day told me that he was petty sure many failures were from simple over revving. It's still making more power at the red line, and would continue past. I know for a fact that it is super easy to over rev the 4 valve.
Well, of course the Aero engine was injected. Supposedly, it made 63 hp. The prop reduction unit would induce power loss, too, as compared to the rear drive on the motorcycle, so that might be an attainable number. If Guzzi is truly working on a hemi small block..  .. maybe we'll find out.

Yes, I can see how it would be easy to over rev, the 4v just keeps pulling.  Good thing there is a rev limiter at 7500....lol

[kevdog3019]

Interesting point.  Here is an overlay of the weakest run I did, compared to a stock 2013 V7.  The torque was significantly higher through the whole rpm range.  In fact, the max torque on the OHR comes up at 4580 rpm, a little sooner than the 2v, at 5100 rpm.  This is with the exact same displacement and the exact same cam profile.  You can also see how the horsepower keeps ramping up, all the way to the rev limiter.  Kind of cool to see exactly what more airflow is doing as compared to the two valve engine.  I like the heron head design too, its very simple and reliable.  That being said, if I bought a new V7, the first thing I would do is convert it to a four valve.....It makes that much difference.
With the numbers Chuck is pulling, I also think it would be a blast to put the drone heads on an EFI engine.  See how that compares to the 4 valve heads....    Then you could do data logging too!!  lol.

That's spectacular Mike!  She runs straight up.  To me, that's plenty of hp/torque for that bike.  If current V7 owners rode that, they would be blown away.  Mine is only a 15-20% increase from stock and I'm still surprised how "big" it feels.  Yours is leagues ahead so I can only imagine. I wish I could see these vids you guys posted. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

You probably need to have flash enabled. I'll look on my tablet and see if I can see em..
I have a long one with setup, idle, baseline runs full power, but I would need to edit it and I've never fooled with trying to edit a video..

[kevdog3019]

It should work in my iPhone I'd think. I disabled flash on my puter.

[sign216]

Mwrenn, I have respect for all you've done to enhance the SB.
I, myself have added a big bore kit and aftermarket programable ECU, amongst other $$.
Still, I'm not a red-line rider.  It's torque down low that makes for a nice riding cycle, and the Heron gives all that.
It's the magazine "reviews" that cry for performance over 9k rpm.

If I wanted the latest whiz-bang technology I'd get a BMW.  And you know what, after that there's no rider-servicing.  Everything is done by the dealer.

No thank you.

[mwrenn]

Mwrenn, I have respect for all you've done to enhance the SB.
I, myself have added a big bore kit and aftermarket programable ECU, amongst other $$.
Still, I'm not a red-line rider.  It's torque down low that makes for a nice riding cycle, and the Heron gives all that.
It's the magazine "reviews" that cry for performance over 9k rpm.

If I wanted the latest whiz-bang technology I'd get a BMW.  And you know what, after that there's no rider-servicing.  Everything is done by the dealer.

No thank you.

I hear you Joe.  That low end grunt is what I really liked about my V7classic when I first test rode it.  I wound up buying the bike based on that.  Thanks for all of your input so far, I do enjoy perusing the yahoo small block group, lots of good info in there!  And pictures!


I bet your big bore kit added even more torque, fun stuff! 

[kevdog3019]

I have found with the Super Lario now that the low end feels pretty big, especially with this last jetting.  It's worlds different than my stock Lario and I'm not finding myself revving it to get that pull and rush I so desired on the stock.  The "go power" feels equal from low to high so I can sit at below 4k rpm and throttle back and enjoy that pull.  I can not get that on my other bike until it opened up somewhere between 45000-5000 rpm. Behaviorally it's much more like a 2 valve until you realize it won't quit on you all the way up.  The best of both worlds I suppose.  I would think Mike's is much the same (but WAY exaggerated) by what his dyno results are showing.

[mwrenn]

I have found with the Super Lario now that the low end feels pretty big, especially with this last jetting.  It's worlds different than my stock Lario and I'm not finding myself revving it to get that pull and rush I so desired on the stock.  The "go power" feels equal from low to high so I can sit at below 4k rpm and throttle back and enjoy that pull.  I can not get that on my other bike until it opened up somewhere between 45000-5000 rpm. Behaviorally it's much more like a 2 valve until you realize it won't quit on you all the way up.  The best of both worlds I suppose.  I would think Mike's is much the same (but WAY exaggerated) by what his dyno results are showing.

It is a world of difference, that's for sure.  I find it hard to put into words, but I think you nailed it.  The low end pull is more noticeable, and if you open it up, it just keeps going, no drop off.  I was noticing that today on the highway, accelerating on the on ramp, I was running it up to 5500 rpm, then shifting up.  Didn't really need to go any higher.  Pretty cool.  Can't wait to get the 820 kit in next month....

[LowRyter]

Actually this journalist, Dogwalker, and Lowryter (when he visited the factory last year) have all professed to how reps at the factory have said they are aware of the V7 power levels and are working on it (and maybe Galluzi or the Piaggio guys that were showing off the Bagger and the Eldo mentioned it to one of the members herer as well).

So I'm thinking it seems more likely than not something is in the works and coming...

MAYBE THAT is the "new mid-sized" motor they're talking about - i.e. an 850 4V or something like that.

Makes more sense than an "ALL NEW" mid-sized motor.

Not.

[LowRyter]

I don't know why you are saying that.

Dogwalker, Lowryter, AND AUTHOR OF THIS ARTCILE seem to each have clearly stated they have been told about a specific variant of the V7 line with more hp in the pipeline.

please stop.  I've never been there, never ridden a small block. 

[Kev m]

Not.

. fixed

[Kev m]

please stop.  I've never been there, never ridden a small block.

You really should.

Ok, Fixed... If you guys would just use actual names instead of screen names.... But then again, for all I knew maybe you're both Johns so to speak. 


FYI

As I reported last October after my trip to the Guzzi factory and a unique opportunity to talk with ranking production people there, "they are working on it."

All of the many criticisms of the V7 line are very well know, and shared(!), by the management. They have things in the works but reminded me with genuine smiles that such improvements "take time."