V7 Touring

[RayB]

I get the point from both of you but if I did that the trucks will run right over you.  Rear view mirror says Mack and start saying your rosary.

[charlie b]

Based on what I've heard. I must just stick with the EV for a while. On the interstate I think I'd like to have some extra ft-lbs available if needed for safety reasons. Thanks for all the insights.

I agree with Kev on this.  It really isn't SAFE to have extra power on the highway.  Yes, you may ride slower, but, that is usually 'safer' than buzzing along in the fast lane or weaving in and out of traffic or passing those trucks just cause they are going 65 and you want to go 75.

Now, if you WANT the extra power, then by all means keep the EV or get a bike with more power.  But please don't kid yourself that it is for 'safety' reasons.

[oldbike54]

 Actually some reserve power can be a safety factor . No , I don't weave in and out of traffic , usually try to find a soft spot and hang there . Hard to do sometimes W/O a bit of juice left to keep ahead of the cars doing 5 over , or more likely around here , 15 over .

  Dusty

[Lannis]

I get the point from both of you but if I did that the trucks will run right over you.  Rear view mirror says Mack and start saying your rosary.

Not sure why it would happen to you and hasn't happened to me.    HAS a Mack truck actually run right over you, or are you just supposing what might happen?

Perhaps Stormtruck might comment on whether truck drivers are really murdering bastards or not.   Maybe they are and I just haven't found them yet ....

Lannis

[oldbike54]

Not sure why it would happen to you and hasn't happened to me.    HAS a Mack truck actually run right over you, or are you just supposing what might happen?

Perhaps Stormtruck might comment on whether truck drivers are really murdering bastards or not.   Maybe they are and I just haven't found them yet ....

Lannis

 Truck drivers tend to be pretty courteous , at least the pros . Around here we have trouble with private trash trucks and concrete haulers .

  Dusty

[Kev m]

I get the point from both of you but if I did that the trucks will run right over you.  Rear view mirror says Mack and start saying your rosary.

I'm sorry, I'm not looking to completely hijack the thread and turn it into an argument.

I'm just relating a technique that has worked for me on crowded and fast major highways all around this country.

And that's not to say that I always use it, or that I don't sometimes chose to move faster than traffic or MORE IMPORTANTLY stay completely away from traffic WHEN I CAN.

I'm just relating something I've noticed over many years and many miles.

I can understand your reticence if you've not tried/experienced it. But it truly does work. I've seen tractor trailers take to the middle r left lane and leave me a nice wide berth many a times. Coupled with courteous replies (a few flashes of the 4way) to my flashing headlight or waving hand alerting them it is safe to merge back in.

Give it a try sometime and you might be surprised.


THAT SAID - to the original point of this thread, there's no reason you would HAVE to use this technique on a V7... it motors along just fine at 70 or 80, and passes well enough at 90.

[charlie b]

Actually some reserve power can be a safety factor . No , I don't weave in and out of traffic , usually try to find a soft spot and hang there . Hard to do sometimes W/O a bit of juice left to keep ahead of the cars doing 5 over , or more likely around here , 15 over .

  Dusty

Sorry, 'extra' power not needed for that on an interstate.  Now, if you want to be able to pass a car, doing 15 over, on a two lane road, then yeah, that's a bit of extra power.

Having ridden a 50hp (probably closer to 40hp) while commuting in interstate traffic, it was a no brainer.  If your top speed is over 100 then any interstate riding is perfectly "safe".

Again, if you WANT the extra power, for whatever reason, then get it.  But it is not necessary to stay alive on the interstate, or any other road for that matter.

[canuguzzi]

The need to be able to accelerate is indeed a safety factor. Ride near some major cities, especial in California and there is no hanging out in a slow lane, the slow lanes are just a right side passing lane.

Drivers and riders have been run over, going 70 mph themselves by others who simply weren't paying attention or were trying to make the right lane end run to gain position in the far left (#1) lane. It happens at slow and go speed and it happens at 70+ mph too.

Sometimes there is no place to go but faster, no such thing as never.

One of the safety features motorcycles have is their ability to accelerate faster than most cars. Moving to one side sometimes isn't an option. Plenty of dead riders who thought they'd hold their lane position come hell or high water, they met both.

[Beaver]

I love my '13 V7 Stone and ride the heck out of it.  To me, it's been great on any road I've taken it on.  Yesterday morning, I rode 85 miles to work from East Texas to the Dallas area, about 70 miles of that was on a crowded interstate.  The slow lane was traveling about 85 mph, but I had no problems staying at that speed.  The last 15 miles was on busy city streets with stop and go traffic in school zones and a few 4-way stop signs with at least 30 cars in front of me.  Ugh....  Still no problems with the bike.

I've ridden this bike on several long trips, loaded down with camping gear, and have had no problems with riding all day long.  I've ridden it to the Canada, Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma, and New Hampshire rallies.   I think it's comfortable and handles any road I've been on just fine! 



Beaver

[Kev m]

The need to be able to accelerate is indeed a safety factor. Ride near some major cities, especial in California and there is no hanging out in a slow lane, the slow lanes are just a right side passing lane.

Drivers and riders have been run over, going 70 mph themselves by others who simply weren't paying attention or were trying to make the right lane end run to gain position in the far left (#1) lane. It happens at slow and go speed and it happens at 70+ mph too.

Sometimes there is no place to go but faster, no such thing as never.

One of the safety features motorcycles have is their ability to accelerate faster than most cars. Moving to one side sometimes isn't an option. Plenty of dead riders who thought they'd hold their lane position come hell or high water, they met both.

I'm sorry, but I just don't accept this argument. According to it people should be rear-ended every day on every major highway around you. Granted I've only ridden a number of weeks in CA not decades like I have on the East Coast, but for that to be true the traffic and culture would have to much much different than I have observed.

[tiger_one]

It is fun to have enough HP to dance ahead of traffic on two lanes, but not much use in the long run on interstates.  What used to be groups of traffic here and there, you could jump up to the clear spots, not so much anymore, mostly grid lock the whole way between big cities.

Still fun in the mountains if no traffic to have the big HP.  But, riding in a group (6 bikes or less) you can only pass traffic on two lanes in 2s or 3s and then still limited by the slowest bike in the group or sight lines.

When there is lower speed limits and bunch of traffic, running with the traffic is the safest bet, especially on two lanes, like YellowStone, Jackson Hole, and Red Lodge area.  Any bike will work in these areas now adays. 

[Adk.IBO]

I've ridden more miles with a friend of mine than any one else on the planet and I can follow him when there is no traffic, not so on a crowded fast moving interstate. I think it has to do with our personal comfort levels. He chooses to ride a mile or 2 per hour under the flow of traffic, I choose to ride a mile or 2 per hour over the flow of traffic. He's not comfortable with my style and It's unnerving for me to have cars, trucks or whatever crawling up my tailpipe. We get our destinations figured out, ride our own ride, and meet on the other side of it all. There is no doubt that most folks will slow down behind someone and create that "bubble" you speak of. He can ignore what's going on behind him, I can't take my eyes off my mirrors and would rather anticipate and respond to what goes on in front of me than what might happen behind me. Then there are those that see that safe bubble as an opportunity to squeeze off the interstate to an exit that they just about missed or to get ahead of that slow mover that's going to add 10-15 seconds to their arrival time. Add those 10-15 seconds together and you've got a whole 5 minutes crossing the average city! .There are also folks that just don't realize that a motorcycle can stop at a much quicker rate than a truck or a car, not to mention they're not thinking about how much damage a multiple ton vehicle can do to a fraction of a ton vehicle. I agree that in most cases accelerating won't help the situation, BUT, you have to admit, there are instances where it may get you out of trouble if you are so inclined to use that tactic. I want every advantage I can utilize. That said, I think the V7 is adequate for touring at sane paces, after the test ride I finally got about a month ago . Choose what works for you, and stay safe out there! John

[Kev m]

I'm not saying you cannot ever accelerate away from a problem. Sure there are times going faster than traffic is more comfortable.

I'm also not saying that when you create that bubble it's not a fluid and ever changing thing.

But thing is, it's fluid and changing at a SLOWER pace than if you let yourself get stuck in the middle of close quarter traffic moving 20 mph faster right?

It's a general principle to which there may be exceptions from time-to-time, but to a reasonable point slowing down gives you more time to observe, react etc.

That said, I very much prefer to NOT have traffic behind me in any close quarters WHEN POSSIBLE.

[biking sailor]

I have been on my KLR on the interstate and had "wanted" to accelerate ahead of a vehicle because I saw myself about to be boxed in by trucks moving 5 to 10 under the speed limit, and didn't have the ability.  You know the situation where a truck tries to pass another truck and can't get it done for several miles.  I see slowing further down, now 10 to 15 under, to create a bubble as something that just might piss off the truck behind me, especially if I kill his momentum getting up the hill.  I would much rather be able to get out of their way before hand and avoid getting anyone upset and start tailgating me. 

I commute on I-35 in central Oklahoma everyday, and this is not an uncommon occurrence.  Also, I've never felt the 750 Breva lacked power to do that up to 90, and I understand the newer V7's have a bit more power.

[charlie b]

I'm sorry, but I just don't accept this argument. According to it people should be rear-ended every day on every major highway around you. Granted I've only ridden a number of weeks in CA not decades like I have on the East Coast, but for that to be true the traffic and culture would have to much much different than I have observed.

+1  But, I have commuted in CA and DC, a few times in several other major cities.  I've never seen a place where having more power would prevent an accident.

OTOH I have seen several where being able to stop faster would have been better.

Face it.  We like power on our bikes.  I liked the power I've had in some cars.  But, it wasn't a safety factor.

[oldbike54]

+1  But, I have commuted in CA and DC, a few times in several other major cities.  I've never seen a place where having more power would prevent an accident.

OTOH I have seen several where being able to stop faster would have been better.

Face it.  We like power on our bikes.  I liked the power I've had in some cars.  But, it wasn't a safety factor.

  So , all of the times I've used all the available HP to create a cushion between myself and some clown in a car that was trying to mate with my motorbike were just imaginary ? Maybe you guys live where no cage driver ever tries to occupy the same space as your motorbike is already occupying , around here it is common . Hell , it has happened on an empty two lane road .

  Dusty

[Kev m]

  So , all of the times I've used all the available HP to create a cushion between myself and some clown in a car that was trying to mate with my motorbike were just imaginary ? Maybe you guys live where no cage driver ever tries to occupy the same space as your motorbike is already occupying , around here it is common . Hell , it has happened on an empty two lane road .

  Dusty

Yeah, sounds like your imagination.

Either people are trying to run you down on purpose or you need to learn to use the rest of the controls (handlebars and brakes).

       

[bpreynolds]

  So , all of the times I've used all the available HP to create a cushion between myself and some clown in a car that was trying to mate with my motorbike were just imaginary ? Maybe you guys live where no cage driver ever tries to occupy the same space as your motorbike is already occupying , around here it is common . Hell , it has happened on an empty two lane road .

  Dusty

Plus one.  My emoticons need some HP this morning.

Look, I dunno if there's an absolute right or wrong in this argument about speed, ponies, and safety.  Yes, driving exceptionally fast is obviously dangerous and going slower - IF you can maintain the same level of attention and guard is almost always safer.  That being said - and I'm sure I'll get wiped out this week following this statement - but I personally tend to be a better driver when I am being slightly offensive rather than slower and what I call defensive driving where I am just watching traffic go around me and concentrating on maintaining a bubble.  The absolute closest calls I've had on the big roads - are we talking about mainly big roads here? - was driving slower and not getting past traffic.  Was that because I was going slower per se?  No.  It was because that when I don't drive the slightest bit offensively, then the truth is that I invariably lose my focus and attention - then a close call happens.  If you can drive slower, keep that bubble between you and traffic, and keep your attention, can anyone argue this is NOT safer?  Even still, for me personally I have found that I keep my focus better and my attention to the road and traffic when I am driving a slight bit aggressively and/or offensively. 

And someone is really gonna likely flag me for b.s. on this statement I'm about to make - they've already said as much in previous posts of Cali (more power) over Stone - but I have found in my now 1400 miles on the Stone that in the 60-90mph roll-on range, I personally am considerably faster at getting around cars than I was on my 4 previous Calis.  Keep in mind I am a small guy (145lbs) so I'm sure that's a factor but I had to plan a great deal more on the Calis than I've had to thus far on my Stone, this from small to big roads.  Maybe the Cali came on a bit stronger around 90 but by then I'm already just about around/past traffic.

[Lannis]

  So , all of the times I've used all the available HP to create a cushion between myself and some clown in a car that was trying to mate with my motorbike were just imaginary ? Maybe you guys live where no cage driver ever tries to occupy the same space as your motorbike is already occupying , around here it is common . Hell , it has happened on an empty two lane road .

  Dusty

You can also use the brakes to move yourself relative to the car who wants your space.   

We haven't always got to be "ahead".

Lannis

[biking sailor]

I really think the answer is that having the ability to quickly accelerate out of a situation IS a safety concern because it can allow you to DECREASE the probability of a collision or other occurrence that could cause damage to yourself or machine.  This is kind of an anti-antidote statement, that the absence of seems to be proof that power is never needed to avoid disaster. "I've never needed it or seen it so it must not be!" 

[biking sailor]

"There are also folks that just don't realize that a motorcycle can stop at a much quicker rate than a truck or a car"

Not to pick on anyone, but I have seen this type of statement several times on multiple motorcycle forums.  Might do some good to actually check the test times and distances for braking ability of your motorcycle, and then compare it to what is being reported for cars.  Can easily be found in magazines and on-line car tests.  You might be a bit surprised how fast many modern cars can scrub off speed (especially if they have magic electrons on their side).  My point is don't always assume you can out-brake that car in front of you.  Stay safe!

[Chuck in Indiana]

My only real concern about taking the Skorpion out to SoCal is it might be a little low on power to handle the 405, 5, 110, etc. going out to the mountains. I could bore you with how the power of the Mighty Scura saved my bacon on the last trip, but I won't bother..

[Kev m]

There are no absolutes <chuckle> and I'll never say never <chuckle more>

So yeah, none of my argument has been that there aren't times when you might feel better going faster than traffic vs. slower.

My argument is that you can always go SLOWER and that you don't HAVE TO ACCELERATE out of trouble (yes, I guess there might be an unforeseen 0.001% occurrence when you can't but for the life of me in hundreds of thousands of miles I've not experienced it, but I've seen it in movies, the atomic bomb planted by the terrorist is about to go off and you've just decided you can't disarm it so you've only got 30 seconds to get to a safe distance, at that point I don't think a Hyabusa is going to save your ass but that's the first time I'd rather have it than a Stone).

But yeah, we're not doing to prove any absolutes.

Then again, I don't think we have to prove absolutes from this argument to say that in hundreds of thousands of miles of experience we've been able to survive without it, therefore "it doesn't appear to be a big/common need" and since multiple people here are reporting the same experience, it's easy to suspect those who feel it IS a "need" are probably fooling themselves trying to justify the "more POWA" (read like Jezza) that many of us know and love.

Anyway on other things:

And someone is really gonna likely flag me for b.s. on this statement I'm about to make - they've already said as much in previous posts of Cali (more power) over Stone - but I have found in my now 1400 miles on the Stone that in the 60-90mph roll-on range, I personally am considerably faster at getting around cars than I was on my 4 previous Calis.  Keep in mind I am a small guy (145lbs) so I'm sure that's a factor but I had to plan a great deal more on the Calis than I've had to thus far on my Stone, this from small to big roads.  Maybe the Cali came on a bit stronger around 90 but by then I'm already just about around/past traffic.

Well that makes perfect sense to me.

First the gearing on the Cali is taller, meaning its motor is spinning slower (further away from peak power) at the same highway speed as a V7. So the V7, already higher in the powerband SHOULD roll on better.

Yes, I think your weight is helping. At my weight it's almost like I'm carrying a passenger too compared to just you solo. Plus I have HB bags on mine (and sometimes a topcase) which add to wind drag.

And as mentioned there are the differences in bike weights too.

Let's look at some relative specs (I know they don't tell the whole story, but they paint at least part of the picture, most specs from Motorcycle Consumer News, but some filled in from other sources):

Jackal vs. Black Eagle vs. Cal-Vin vs. V7 Stone (2013-15)

Wet Weight: 572# / 589# / 616# / 443#

RWHP: 63 / 68 / 68 / 40

Torque: 60 / 58 / 58 / 41

Standing 1/4 mile: 13.74 / 13.35 / 13.2 (not MCN) / 14.29


The 1/4 mile figures show slight differences. The Cal-Vin number is a test variance from a different source, there's no reason it should be quicker than the same motor/ECU (but lighter) Black Eagle. The numbers show a slight advantage WOT from a dead stand still that goes to the Breva1100 engine internals in the Black Eagle/Cal-Vin, and that the Jackal (another lighter, stripped variant compared to an EV or many other Tonti Calis) which likely goes to the slight hp to weight ratio advantage of the Tonti Cali vs. the V7.

I should add the top speeds in the 1/4 mile for the Black Eagle (fastest) vs. the V7 (slowest) were 100 mph vs. 90 mph.

I don't have the figure for the Jackal noted, but looking at the times, let's split the difference and call it about 95 mph.

So in a standing 1/4 there might be a 5 mph difference between a stripped Cali and a V7, that's not much.

And any sudden "need" for acceleration on the highway it's going to come down to the particular rider/bike and conditions. I mean, how much weight are you carrying, windshield and bags for drag, do you try to roll on or drop it gear?

To me, that's basically an RCH.

[rocker59]

I really think the answer is that having the ability to quickly accelerate out of a situation IS a safety concern because it can allow you to DECREASE the probability of a collision or other occurrence that could cause damage to yourself or machine.  This is kind of an anti-antidote statement, that the absence of seems to be proof that power is never needed to avoid disaster. "I've never needed it or seen it so it must not be!" 

I'm not saying I've never needed to accelerate.  And, I like power.  But, I have commuted on two different V7s and they have adequate power to move in and out and around traffic at interstate speeds.

Heck, I just did that this morning. 

[biking sailor]

For me...  If a car starts to merge into the lane space I am occupying, and I have a choice to quickly accelerate or quickly brake, and there is a car closely behind (not necessarily tailgating either), I will opt for the throttle because I can control better where I go than I can control the attention and braking of the car behind me.  YMMV in what you prefer to do.

[RayB]

Ok. My original question was whether the V7 is adequate for 80 mph slab work. Most have said it is.
Having an extra margin of power...well lets just say its a personal thing. No, I don't ride wild and do like to ride between the packs in traffic but if I want to go I want it available...whether or not that is truly safer or not.
If I can avoid the interstates well thats my first choice but sometimes its not practical. Hey if most people think the V7 is ok for interstate work that's good enough for me.
Question answered. Thank you.

I also know now not to question the power levels of the V7 any more. People feel very emotional anout their choice of bike. I guess one could tour on anything I guess. Once read an article anout a guy that toured on a Whizzer. Safety is related to one's perception of risk.

[Kev m]

For me...  If a car starts to merge into the lane space I am occupying, and I have a choice to quickly accelerate or quickly brake, and there is a car closely behind (not necessarily tailgating either), I will opt for the throttle because I can control better where I go than I can control the attention and braking of the car behind me.  YMMV in what you prefer to do.

OK, perfect discussion point.

What kind of merge?

Freeway on-ramp?  - then I disagree. You can see them coming long enough that it takes very little speed differential to put you just in front or just behind. 

(Because I ride with Jenn relatively often, and it's not uncommon for her to be far enough back that accelerating to get in front of merging traffic doesn't make sense, it's something I've done many times, literally a slight roll off of the throttle allows you to pace and merge behind the on-ramp traffic).


Freeway rolling traffic? - I still disagree. If someone merges "suddenly" into your lane there are only 3 options and I think they depend on where you were in the first place. I mean, if you're staying behind them so it's tight but clear, then no problem (except that they just ate your cushion so you'll have to slow slightly for a few seconds to build a new cushion). If you're just in front of them, or maybe because of traffic you've just dropped by to even with the driver, then some horn, a slight swerve, coupled with some acceleration can help, but it depends on how fast they're coming over - I mean if they just swerve into your lane you're hit, done acceleration wasn't going to help cause chances are you don't have the reaction time and the bike doesn't instantly jump ahead even if it's a Busa. And lastly, if you're RIGHT next to them (BEHIND the driver) and they just come over - you're hit. But then you shouldn't be just right next to them for more than a second or two since you should be either already slowing or accelerating. No?


But let's not forget the other input you've got - STEERING - I mentioned it briefly in that answer. Even with a Jersey barrier on one side, you've likely got lane-splitting room to get out of a serious situation. Swerve and then brake.

Also, in all the above scenarios IF you are moving slightly slower than traffic then you've already got an advantage on the swerver/merger who is coming into your lane that you were already putting distance between them giving you room to dodge behind them.

Shit, I'd rather dodge BEHIND someone who is being aggressive than IN FRONT OF THEM where I'm still a target.




RAY - this has simply become a discussion about bike choices/riding technique... thanks for starting it. I don't think the exchange of different viewpoints and strategies is a bad thing. But as for questioning the power of the V7. Here's the thing. I don't think ANYONE CAN do it on the internet. It obviously has enough power for lots of people. But that's not the question you were really asking. You were asking if it has ENOUGH POWER FOR YOU, and I CAN'T ANSWER THAT (nor can anyone else here). Though we have obviously tried to give your our perspectives to see if you can relate to it or not. I do think maybe you'd enjoy a demo ride. It might confirm your thoughts, or it might change them. Who knows. Though I do think the Jackal vs. V7 specs tell SOME of the story. Have fun and RIDE SAFE!

[rocker59]

I also know now not to question the power levels of the V7 any more. People feel very emotional anout their choice of bike. I guess one could tour on anything I guess. 

My 2014 V7 Special is my 7th Guzzi.  Two currently in the garage.  My Sport 1100 can eat the V7 Special for lunch in any measure of performance, but that does not mean the V7 is not perfectly adequate for highway and interstate riding.  I bought the V7 Special specifically for around town, commuting, and light touring.  And, it performs those tasks with no issues.

Sure, the bike could have more power.  It could also have better suspension.  But, it would not be a sub-$10k bike, if it had those things.  I bought the V7 Special for "fun".  It's a different kind of fun than my Sport 1100.  The V7 makes me smile every time I ride it.  The bike reminds me of a very refined vintage standard, and that is what makes it fun for me.

[rocker59]

OK, perfect discussion point.

And proof that there are many variables  and more than one way to skin a cat.

[Kev m]

And proof that there are many variables  and more than one way to skin a cat.

The very existence of alternate methods does not prove either their superiority or the NEED for them. 

I conceded desire for them from the start of the discussion.