V7-II map upgrade.

[Loftness]

ZOMG YOU GUYS 

I was just going to make a post about this. It's totally true, after my 620 mile service, shit has definitely gotten worse for Lil' Nero (working title). It's died on me for no reason after startup numerous times now, and it's just rough and horrible and sounds like it's dying all the time now. What the actual f$!k. How can this shit happen?! Who lets stuff just leave a factory like that, that busted? I made a video of it today actually, uploading it here just because I need to share it with you glorious folks who actually know stuff about things n' junk.

The video doesn't capture the *ugh*-ness that's been added since the mapping when I rev it more, and this video is actually of a tamer instance of this new behavior (I assume because it's been sitting out in 90+ degree weather in the sun so it's warmer maybe?). Anyway, I cringe each time I watch this, and don't mock my vertical video, this is like the 4th time in 3 years I've shot a video of any kind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4YN5ZZSwoA

Just for clarification, before the service everything was running normally, yes?  Then after the service and ecu flash it's rough starting AND will stall when given throttle?

The video shows the rough start, though it doesn't stall.  Once warmed up does everything operate normally?

As an aside, my V7 does cold start like yours did in the video when it's been sitting in the sun for a while.

[Vasco DG]

The original map, which I can't remember the designation of, is a bit surgey on cold start up. Other than that it seemed to work pretty well. Generally I think a new map is developed to address issues based on feedback from dealers. If the factory is getting a lot of enquiries about a running issue they will try and develop something that negates the problem. In the past there have been a couple of updates for some models, none for others. Generally speaking all the factory maps are a host of compromises but their main objectives are to pass emissions regulations and not cost a lot of time and therefore money to develop. To produce a really good map is time consuming and not inexpensive. Hence the rather basic quality of the factory offerings and the ongoing popularity of aftermarket kludges like O2 sensor foolers, power commanders and other such munt.

Pete

[Loftness]

The original map, which I can't remember the designation of, is a bit surgey on cold start up. Other than that it seemed to work pretty well. Generally I think a new map is developed to address issues based on feedback from dealers. If the factory is getting a lot of enquiries about a running issue they will try and develop something that negates the problem.........

Pete

Pete, I'm just trying to make sure we use the correct map here for the V7IIs.  You're saying that the absolute latest one (...V796) is working well for them, but the previous one was crap, correct?  I don't want to torpedo a customer bike on accident. 

The newest V7 (I) map is excellent, and solves every issue I've seen with these. 

[pauldaytona]

For the wanting to know, here miu3 manual.  It has map sensor and stepper. And explains how things work.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/374769/Injection_V750_con_MIU_G3_ed01_03-2012_rev01_ENG.pdf

[sib]

For the wanting to know, here miu3 manual.  It has map sensor and stepper. And explains how things work.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/374769/Injection_V750_con_MIU_G3_ed01_03-2012_rev01_ENG.pdf

A fount of information and answers much of the puzzlement and speculation about the MIUG3 on this forum and others.

Many thanks.

[rocker59]

Gotta love Guzzi dealers...  Yesterday, I emailed my closest dealer's service department (120 miles distant), asking for a ride-in appointment to load the 352BV738 map in my 2014 V7 Special.

They've had all day today to respond to my request...

Crickets...

 

[sib]

Gotta love Guzzi dealers...  Yesterday, I emailed my closest dealer's service department (120 miles distant), asking for a ride-in appointment to load the 352BV738 map in my 2014 V7 Special.

They've had all day today to respond to my request...

Crickets...

 

Maybe you should have added the sentence:  If you reply positively in the next 6 hours, I might buy a new V7-II from you.

[Vasco DG]

Pete, I'm just trying to make sure we use the correct map here for the V7IIs.  You're saying that the absolute latest one (...V796) is working well for them, but the previous one was crap, correct?  I don't want to torpedo a customer bike on accident. 

The newest V7 (I) map is excellent, and solves every issue I've seen with these.

Fletch, the jury is still out on the latest map as Craig's bike was warm when we uploaded it and its biggest, but not only, issue was its cold start with the previous one. He may chime in or he's certainly going to call me after he's ridden to work this morning, (It's 7.00AM here.). Main thing is NOT to upload the earlier one, the V795, or if you do make sure you have the V796 downloaded and ready to overwrite it.

Talking with John at Motocicolo yesterday he also said they had had several MUIG 3 models that had had sudden poor running issues and it seemed to be some form of corruption of the ECU. Anyway he was asked to send the vin to the warranty bloke at the importer who then emailed it to the importer and the next day they sent back a code and it was possible to reprogram the ECU. I'd noticed on PADS that the ECU has a NIP listed so one assumes that this is the same process that is used when unlocking Aprilia ECU's for race mapping and the like. The system here is different to the US and I can't communicate directly with the factory but I believe that you in the US can. On the service portal there is a 'Request a code' feature and I reckon if you talk to your tech bods they'll explain the process for requesting a re-set code. It might even be self explanatory? I'm not sure as, as I said, us mere underlings in Oz don't have such access.

Pete

[Kev m]

For the wanting to know, here miu3 manual.  It has map sensor and stepper. And explains how things work.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/374769/Injection_V750_con_MIU_G3_ed01_03-2012_rev01_ENG.pdf

Thank you thank you thank you!!!!

[Vasco DG]

Thank you thank you thank you!!!!

Yes, thanks for that Paul. Given its actually a Piaggio training document it would of been REALLY NICE if they'd sent it to me at some point!

Pete

[pauldaytona]

Yes, thanks for that Paul. Given its actually a Piaggio training document it would of been REALLY NICE if they'd sent it to me at some point!

Pete

Well they put it on the servicemotoguzzi website, where you could have found it. For the ones that didn't go to the training:-)

[Kev m]

I was wondering why they didn't provide it to Pete AT TRAINING but figured I get really tired of all the piling on with mg that I'd just let it go...

[Vasco DG]

Well they put it on the servicemotoguzzi website, where you could have found it. For the ones that didn't go to the training:-)

There isn't a training materials section on our dealer portal as far as I know. There are a heap of features that simply don't work on the Oz site. Don't ask me why!

Pete

Nah, just tried searching the site again. Just get error messages. Grrrrrr!

[Vasco DG]

Interesting, so idle is stepper controlled. It doesn't do it very well

[stomatomoto]

Just for clarification, before the service everything was running normally, yes?  Then after the service and ecu flash it's rough starting AND will stall when given throttle?

The video shows the rough start, though it doesn't stall.  Once warmed up does everything operate normally?

As an aside, my V7 does cold start like yours did in the video when it's been sitting in the sun for a while.

Kind of; it actually sucked when cold starting on the old map as well, it just was much less dramatic than this situation. This video isn't a great representation, it's just what I had time to film most recently; it's been MUCH worse than that, dies on me when sitting in driveway, giving it throttle from cold start, and it just runs rougher it seems. In other words, things have worsened and extended previous problems.

Pete Vasco, it's not THAT bad, fortunately, whew! That sounds like a nightmare, but I baby the shit out of this thing though, maybe I'm not seeing the soot and stuff yet because it's so frash still, super frash. Plus I'm doing as instructed by dealer and running only premium gas in it, 91 octane. Not sure if that matters or not though, and I feel like it could get that bad if things continue on as they are. My dealer responded to my email right away and said they have the new map and for me to bring it in when I can, which is whenever I can make the 2 HOUR LONG JOURNEY to Elk F*$%king Grove again, FML.

[solarsea]

For the wanting to know, here miu3 manual.  It has map sensor and stepper. And explains how things work.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/374769/Injection_V750_con_MIU_G3_ed01_03-2012_rev01_ENG.pdf

Thanks a lot for the PDF! As a programmer I was constantly wondering why the hell would the two ignition coils on my V7 II be different, provided that everything else is the same for each of the cylinders. This file doesn't explain the very reasons but gives an informative background.

[Penderic]

Thankyou. Makes sense now!

 

[tiger_one]

I would venture a guess as to the poor idle on start up having to do with it using the MAP until the O2 sensors get up to heat.

Also on the PDF, looks like several places in the process that an error will cause the whole unit to be tossed.  Hopefully those errors do not happen often.

[Loftness]

Plus I'm doing as instructed by dealer and running only premium gas in it, 91 octane. Not sure if that matters or not though, and I feel like it could get that bad if things continue on as they are.

What???  89 should be the highest octane you put in that bad boy unless something I'm not aware of has changed between the V7I and the V7II.  Do NOT run premium.

*this is a Piaggio directive btw, not something we've made up

[rocker59]

Mine is running well on 89 (RON+MON)/20

[Kev m]

Also on the PDF, looks like several places in the process that an error will cause the whole unit to be tossed.  Hopefully those errors do not happen often.

Good news is that it's only like $350 for the whole unit (according to yesterday's internet searches). In comparison it cost me $500 just to get my OEM unit flashed by Guzzitech on my last big block.

What???  89 should be the highest octane you put in that bad boy unless something I'm not aware of has changed between the V7I and the V7II.  Do NOT run premium.

*this is a Piaggio directive btw, not something we've made up

Really? Since when? Would love to see a source on that cause the previous generation literature that I've seen all said the equivalent of US PON 90/91.

Mine has pinged on 89.

[Clancy]

Give me another couple of days guys.
The results seem a bit mixed and I want to make sure my conclusions are reliable.

It's still winter here so morning cold starts are still just above 0 DegC and I want to get a few more of them in.
Morning starts were bad, but the worst starts I was having was after the bike had sat for 1-3 hrs following a ride.
Thankfully I can duck out of work at intervals this week and take the bike for a test start/ride around the block.
Not enough to warm it up but enough to see how it starts again after a short cool down.

Will be in touch.

Craig

[Kev m]

Funny thing about cold starts, on my 13 with the original map they were worse the HOTTER the ambient temp and the better the COLDER the ambient temp.

First swag would be it wasn't the fault of the stepper, but overly rich mixtures in initial open loop operation.

[stomatomoto]

Sticker on the tank says 90.  I can't get 90, so I buy 91 (premium).

What he said. Also, dammit, yet again I find myself getting pulled between two opposing viewpoints in the same place: people here have said both "don't run premium" and "do what the dealer says on that", so I'm just gonna keep going with what the dealer says because that's two roughly distinguishable sources vs. one and they're holding my maintenance records, unless someone comes up with incontrovertible and clear evidence to the contrary.

[O]

In honor of Yogi, "it's like deja vu all over again."   

Not the first time the proper octane for the V7 has been discsussed here:  http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=61585.0

For what it's worth, I've been running 89 octane in mine for two seasons now with good results.

[Loftness]

Really? Since when? Would love to see a source on that cause the previous generation literature that I've seen all said the equivalent of US PON 90/91.

Mine has pinged on 89.

Kev we went over this in an older thread but don't remember which one.  My source was an email (and subsequent phone convo) with our Piaggio tech when we were having serious cold start/throttle issues with one of our first 1TB V7s.  It also falls in line with many other bikes in the Piaggio line, some of which will downright run like complete shit on premium (the BV350 and 500 come to mind immediately)

[Loftness]

What he said. Also, dammit, yet again I find myself getting pulled between two opposing viewpoints in the same place: people here have said both "don't run premium" and "do what the dealer says on that", so I'm just gonna keep going with what the dealer says because that's two roughly distinguishable sources vs. one and they're holding my maintenance records, unless someone comes up with incontrovertible and clear evidence to the contrary.

If we were your dealer we would be telling you to go 'one down' rather than 'one up' and use 89.   

And again, that came from the mouth of our regional tech at Piaggio. 

[sib]

89 worked fine in my '13 Stone and works fine in my '16 Stone.  87 did not, it pinged on lugging.  I did try 91 once and didn't notice any difference compared to 89.

[Kev m]

Kev we went over this in an older thread but don't remember which one.  My source was an email (and subsequent phone convo) with our Piaggio tech when we were having serious cold start/throttle issues with one of our first 1TB V7s.  It also falls in line with many other bikes in the Piaggio line, some of which will downright run like complete shit on premium (the BV350 and 500 come to mind immediately)

You're right.

I dismissed it then, and I do again today.

1. I have no idea of the technical qualifications of the guy you got an email from, but history doesn't bode well on that source.

2. The V7 isn't a BV350 or a 500.

3. I tried 89 after you preached it here and my V7 pinged HORRIBLY with throttle and any kind of load.

So no thanks, I'll listen to the engineer's recommendations and what is printed in the Owner's and Service manuals in this case.

1TB V7 Owner's Manual:

Fuel Premium unleaded petrol,
minimum octane rating of 95
(NORM) and 85 (NOMM)

I'm told NORM = RON
and NOMM = MON

So US Pump Octane Number would be 90.

1TB V7  Service manual:

FUEL SYSTEM
Specification Desc./Quantity
Type Electronic injection (Marelli MIU G3)
Venturi Ø 38 mm (1.50 in)
Fuel Premium unleaded petrol, minimum octane rating of 95
(NORM) and 85 (NOMM)

Loft, I understand that if you personally have found 89 works well in YOUR region of the country and/or on bikes in YOUR dealership.

But assuming that is true across the country (different ambients, possibly different fuel formulation like winterized fuel etc.) is dangerous.

I might know what to listen for, but the next guy might not. The next guy might have Agostinis or LaFranconis that are drowning out the sound of the pinging as they are happily riding along cause someone on the forum told them 89 is fine until that day they put a hole in their piston.

Maybe we're splitting hairs and the pinging won't be often enough or severe enough in most cases.

But why risk it? Why not give the actual factory recommendation with a caveat that YOU PERSONALLY HAVE FOUND NO PROBLEM WITH 89 and even have been told by Piaggio reps it should be fine. But warn them to listen for pinging and not to use it if they hear it.

Fair enough?

[Loftness]

Yep I get that (regional differences).  Fair enough.

And yes I understand a V7 is not a BV500.  I only mentioned that bike in particular b/c the manual would suggest a higher octane than what actually works.  My *personal* theory is that something gets lost in translation in those manuals and specs, but I have no actual grounds for that theory...it's more of a 'I've been dealing with Piaggio products long enough to suspect...' type of thing.

As for the tech's qualifications, I'd *hope* they're good as he's our direct line to Piaggio tech.