VW, now THAT is a major problem.

[PJPR01]

Looks like Herr Winterkorn will be receiving something in the neighborhood of 60 million Euros for his severance package.

Always amazing how CEO's can get these wonderful severance packages in light of a major blunder.  Market value shaved off about $30Billion so far from VW shareholders (including Lower Saxony and the country of Qatar), but he'll still get $60M Euros...a real headscratcher.

The interesting politics of Porsche trying to take over VW and then having VW reverse course and dominate Porsche, will now be in for a role reversal here shortly.  By the way, isn't this the same engine in the Passat TDI as they employ in the Cayenne Diesel?  (Dusty...you see I'm trying to expand the discussion from a VW Centric one to include Porsche now!  :) )

[AJ Huff]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/24/us-usa-volkswagen-letters-exclusive-idUSKCN0RO0BD20150924

The plot thickens. So how many people are hand wringing but already had their ECUs reflashed at the dealership?

-AJ

[Guido Valvole]

@PJPR01 -- that crossed my mind, too. The mouse that roared get the last laugh. And just in time for more celebration at Rennsport Reunion. 
cr

[AJ Huff]

http://www.laweekly.com/news/officials-knew-about-vw-pollution-in-early-2014-6079909

I bet VW lawyers will be all over this 18 month gap before the government reacted. Must not have been that big of a deal???

-AJ

[Kev m]

They've never done it for past safety recalls, they aren't going to start now. It's only 500,000 cars!!! Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda have had recalls in the TENS of MILLIONS!!!

-AJ

This ISN'T a Safety Recall.

A safety recall only effects the occupants of the vehicle so it behooves THEM to get it done.

In theory this would effect EVERYONE ELSE on the planet (not just the occupants of the vehicle).

[LowRyter]

http://www.laweekly.com/news/officials-knew-about-vw-pollution-in-early-2014-6079909

I bet VW lawyers will be all over this 18 month gap before the government reacted. Must not have been that big of a deal???

-AJ

Yeah, it was in orginal story that the EPA and CARB were dealing with VW for the last 18 months over this.  VW was pretty strident and arrogant with their denials. 

I think the govt is usually at a disadvantage going against big corporations and their lobbyists.  I think they gave VW every opportunity to come clean until they were caught dead to right.  It looks like the same situation might be happening in Europe as well.

[AJ Huff]

This ISN'T a Safety Recall.

A safety recall only effects the occupants of the vehicle so it behooves THEM to get it done.

In theory this would effect EVERYONE ELSE on the planet (not just the occupants of the vehicle).

You're joking right?? All of the sudden a VW emission issue has made the US the environmental leader of the world? US manufacturing companies only comply with pollution regulations because they are forced to. We scoffed at the Kyoto accords. Keystone pipe line or bust. Drill Baby Drill. America's love affair with giant SUVs. But VW Jettas and Passats, this is just too much.

Give me a break.

-AJ

[AJ Huff]

You're joking right?? All of the sudden a VW emission issue has made the US the environmental leader of the world? US manufacturing companies only comply with pollution regulations because they are forced to. We scoffed at the Kyoto accords. Keystone pipe line or bust. Drill Baby Drill. America's love affair with giant SUVs. But VW Jettas and Passats, this is just too much.

Give me a break.

-AJ

Apparently the European cars have the defeat code installed but even with it the emissions are below European standards.

-AJ

[AJ Huff]

For those that like raw data straight from the source:

http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf

I believe Vehicle A is the Jetta TDI, Vehicle B is the Passat TDI, Vehicle C is the BMW.

-AJ

[mojohand]

Theme song to this debacle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fssblRRCgmg

[Kev m]

You're joking right?? All of the sudden a VW emission issue has made the US the environmental leader of the world? US manufacturing companies only comply with pollution regulations because they are forced to. We scoffed at the Kyoto accords. Keystone pipe line or bust. Drill Baby Drill. America's love affair with giant SUVs. But VW Jettas and Passats, this is just too much.

Give me a break.

-AJ

No I'm not joking.

You read the quote and link in post #250, that's one example of the potential problem.

That US companies only comply with EPA regulations through force doesn't mean the regulations aren't necessary.

The litmus test for morality of an action is simple, "if everyone does it, would it hurt humanity". If the answer is YES then the action is immoral (and it is a resounding yes that IF every automaker or every vehicle owner, ignored emissions standards it would no doubt hurt humanity).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not weighing the value of this pollution vs. that of another source. I'm talking about the one, regulated and documented source. But it is one that has been cheating the system to the tune of 500,000 cars. That's not an insignificant piece of the puzzle.

But I was just pointing out what makes this different from a safety recall.

[AJ Huff]

I poured enough iron and worked around enough heavy metals to be a big fan of regulation. Heavy regulation. And I am a bleeding heart liberal socialist. But I don't see no way no how that industry and government in this country is going to increase regulations based on this on the CONSUMER. Heck we have such a non working bureaucracy there's no way state DOT offices are going to coordinate with Feds on this.

-AJ

[Kev m]

I'm not predicting whether they will or won't, but there if more justification and motivation than ever before.

[Steph]

Theme song to this debacle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fssblRRCgmg

Mr Blue Sky, where have you been hiding so long... -under a cloud of VW fumes!
http://youtu.be/98P-gu_vMRc

[tiger_one]

500,000 TDIs making 40% more emissions than required standard, is hardly a drop in the bucket of total traffic out there running every day.

UPDATE:  I heard that value on the news (40%), but after some searches, I find that they are saying up to 40 times the standard.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[PJPR01]

I thought it was 11 million vehicles worldwide (500K in US only) emitting 40 times the NOX levels, not 40% more!   Did I read that incorrectly somewhere?

[Kev m]

And it spreads...

BBC was saying it was over a false report.

This CNN story seems to suggest it is a fluke, one model testing out of parameters.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/24/bmw-shares-slip-on-report-of-high-emission-levels.html.

[pauldaytona]

Other perspective. Ive seen here news that American cars are less safe then euopean cars. Every car is more poluting and consuming on the road then in testenvironment. What is new?

[molly]

I'm sat at the computer and looking out of the window at my neighbour peering at the exhaust of his VW Golf diesel and scratching his head. Near it stands my wife's Vauxhall (GM) 1.6 petrol Astra which he often sniffs at for being downmarket. It's a good job I haven't got a weak bladder or I would be pissing myself.

[Mark in TN]

My wife drives a 2012 Jetta Sportwagon TDI with approx 50k.  Bought it for mileage, but was amazed with performance.  Has the sport 6 spd auto.  Got a letter from VW last Spring to bring it in for a software upgrade.  I rarely drive it, but recently did and mentioned that it didn't feel as 'peppy'.  Haven't checked for mpg changes. I'm wondering if they didn't try to switch things back before this story was broken? 

[Kev m]

Other perspective. Ive seen here news that American cars are less safe then euopean cars. Every car is more poluting and consuming on the road then in testenvironment. What is new?

They are DIFFERENT perspectives. Not likely based on reality, but different.

I doubt highly that ALL EU cars are safer than ALL US cars. Unless there was some ridiculous standard not adopted by US cars that's just not going to be the case. I'm sure there are individual examples that perform better and worse in both camps.

As for "more polluting" on the road, that's a skewed perspective since it ignores that it is EXPECTED to be a linear difference, not a 40 times the regulated amount spike the second the car KNOWS it's not being sniffed.

But given the same rpm, load, etc. no car is EXPECTED to be more polluting just because it's not on the roller.

Other perspective. Ive seen here news that American cars are less safe then euopean cars. Every car is more poluting and consuming on the road then in testenvironment. What is new?

Assholes are assholes whether individuals or corporate.

[Kev m]

My wife drives a 2012 Jetta Sportwagon TDI with approx 50k.  Bought it for mileage, but was amazed with performance.  Has the sport 6 spd auto.  Got a letter from VW last Spring to bring it in for a software upgrade.  I rarely drive it, but recently did and mentioned that it didn't feel as 'peppy'.  Haven't checked for mpg changes. I'm wondering if they didn't try to switch things back before this story was broken?

I thought someone posted a link already (maybe it was on another discussion board).

I was chuckling about this yesterday with all the "they won't make me change this" crowd. Or the "don't blame VW crowd".

Seems that VW has been aware of this and working with at least CARB (if not the EPA too) since at least DECEMBER 2014 and in April 2015 they issued the first recall on this already and yes anyone who has been in since then for that recall has already been reflashed.

With that recall (and I'm assuming others they had planned) they had hoped to satisfy the EPA and avoid the penalty. I'll see if I can find that link again.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/24/us-usa-volkswagen-letters-exclusive-idUSKCN0RO0BD20150924

In April of 2015, Volkswagen of America, Inc.(VOWG_p.DE) sent letters to California owners of diesel-powered Audis and Volkswagens informing them of an “emissions service action” affecting the vehicles.

Owners were told they would need to take their cars to a dealer for new software to ensure tailpipe emissions were "optimized and operating efficiently."

The company didn’t explain that it was taking the action in hopes of satisfying government regulators, who were growing increasingly skeptical about the reason for discrepancies between laboratory emissions test results and real world pollution from Volkswagen’s diesel cars.

[jas67]

Assholes are assholes whether individuals or corporate.

That picture shows a truck that is obviously off-road, which may or may not be legal, but, tampering with the emissions controls to "roll coal" on a road-going truck is absolutely illegal, just not enforced as it should be.   

I lurked on some of the diesel truck forums for a while before buying my F-350 w/ Powerstroke.   The general attitude there is "eff the EPA".   There are lots of threads about removing EGR, DPF, and DEF systems, as well as talk of installing tunes for the express purpose of "rolling coal."    I can sort of understand removing the emissions crap to make the truck perform better, get better MPG, or be more reliable ( one of the benefits of an EGR delete on the 6.0L Powerstroke), but tuning for the express purpose of beltching out black smoke w/o the benefit of additional HP/torque?    That is the definitely of assholeness right there.

I think any LEO that sees a truck "Rolling Coal" should have the truck impounded on the spot for an emissions inspection.     Heck, I can see these jerks causing accidents because the hapless individuals behind them can't see where they're going.

[jas67]

Seems that VW has been aware of this and working with at least CARB (if not the EPA too) since at least DECEMBER 2014 and in April 2015 they issued the first recall on this already and yes anyone who has been in since then for that recall has already been reflashed.

With that recall (and I'm assuming others they had planned) they had hoped to satisfy the EPA and avoid the penalty. I'll see if I can find that link again.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/24/us-usa-volkswagen-letters-exclusive-idUSKCN0RO0BD20150924

I had both our TDI's in for that recall.   Neither seems to have lost any performance or MPG, but, then again, it doesn't seem to have reduced the emissions enough to appease CARB or the EPA either.

VW was real vague about the reason for the recall in the letters they sent out.

[Kev m]

That picture shows a truck that is obviously off-road, which may or may not be legal, but, tampering with the emissions controls to "roll coal" on a road-going truck is absolutely illegal, just not enforced as it should be.   

I lurked on some of the diesel truck forums for a while before buying my F-350 w/ Powerstroke.   The general attitude there is "eff the EPA".   There are lots of threads about removing EGR, DPF, and DEF systems, as well as talk of installing tunes for the express purpose of "rolling coal."    I can sort of understand removing the emissions crap to make the truck perform better, get better MPG, or be more reliable ( one of the benefits of an EGR delete on the 6.0L Powerstroke), but tuning for the express purpose of beltching out black smoke w/o the benefit of additional HP/torque?    That is the definitely of assholeness right there.

I think any LEO that sees a truck "Rolling Coal" should have the truck impounded on the spot for an emissions inspection.     Heck, I can see these jerks causing accidents because the hapless individuals behind them can't see where they're going.

It's hard to say "I can understand removing or altering emissions controls to make it perform better" but then get pissed about someone who rolls coal (which is just an extreme of the same thing).

So now you know why for 20 years I've PRETTY MUCH kept my bike motors stock.

The Breva 1100 was one of the only exceptions and I only did that when I felt both the constant pinging that couldn't be cured through the dealer network and the exceptional heat from the cat-con couldn't otherwise be dealt with. But first I exhausted all legal options.

Even my Harleys have all been 50 state street legal.

That's why my EVAP canisters are in place.

[Kev m]

I had both our TDI's in for that recall.   Neither seems to have lost any performance or MPG, but, then again, it doesn't seem to have reduced the emissions enough to appease CARB or the EPA either.

VW was real vague about the reason for the recall in the letters they sent out.

INTERESTING.

It's encouraging that you haven't noticed any loss of performance or MPG.

But yeah, maybe it was because it wasn't a big enough of a change.

[rocker59]

That picture shows a truck that is obviously off-road, which may or may not be legal, but, tampering with the emissions controls to "roll coal" on a road-going truck is absolutely illegal, just not enforced as it should be.   

I lurked on some of the diesel truck forums for a while before buying my F-350 w/ Powerstroke.   The general attitude there is "eff the EPA".   There are lots of threads about removing EGR, DPF, and DEF systems, as well as talk of installing tunes for the express purpose of "rolling coal."    I can sort of understand removing the emissions crap to make the truck perform better, get better MPG, or be more reliable ( one of the benefits of an EGR delete on the 6.0L Powerstroke), but tuning for the express purpose of beltching out black smoke w/o the benefit of additional HP/torque?    That is the definitely of assholeness right there.

I think any LEO that sees a truck "Rolling Coal" should have the truck impounded on the spot for an emissions inspection.     Heck, I can see these jerks causing accidents because the hapless individuals behind them can't see where they're going.

Last evening, as I was approaching the stop sign at the main road outside my neighborhood, some d00d went by in his bro-dozer and rolled-coal for about 500-feet.  I literally could not see the oncoming traffic to my right until the smoke/soot settled to the ground, so I just sat there at the stop sign shaking my head...  Waiting until I could see well enough to make my left turn...

[AJ Huff]

See it all the time driving round here. Truck of choice send to be the Dodge Ram with stacks in the bed or Chevy'sv with huge tail pipes smoking  everyone behind them. Haven't seen to many Ford'sb with the diesel belch, not sure why. There a reason why rural America does not have emission testing. ;)

-AJ

[blackcat]

Last evening, as I was approaching the stop sign at the main road outside my neighborhood, some d00d went by in his bro-dozer and rolled-coal for about 500-feet.  I literally could not see the oncoming traffic to my right until the smoke/soot settled to the ground, so I just sat there at the stop sign shaking my head...  Waiting until I could see well enough to make my left turn...

It has happened to me on the bike and in the Prius which is one of their targets. Assholes.

"That picture shows a truck that is obviously off-road..."

Maybe in PA but not down here and I don't know how they can stand the noise from those tires.

[blackcat]

About the little group in WV that busted VW:

"Volkswagen was cheating. That's what everyone in the project began to suspect but wouldn't dare to say out loud.

"It's the sort of thing you just don't go around accusing companies of doing unless you're absolutely sure," says John German, with the International Council on Clean Transportation — the group that commissioned the test. German immediately suspected Volkswagen had done something not completely unheard of in the car business: install what's called a defeat device.

"The quick definition is something that tells the computer when you're on the official test cycle and when you're not. And when you're not, you change how the emission control system works," he says.

German says the deceit doesn't just stop with a programmer writing code.

"It's both writing the code, but you also need to do validation. So someone had to take these vehicles out, test them on the standard test cycle, make sure that the emission controls are supposed to be working when they're supposed to be working," he says.

German's group turned its data over to the Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board. He says things like this start with one little lie or cheat at a time.

"You take a little step, you don't get caught. So yeah, you take another little step," he says. "And then maybe you don't even realize how far over the line you are."

So does he feel vindicated?

"I think vindicated is the wrong word. I feel satisfaction that we have contributed to something that will have a major impact on public health," he says. "But vindication implies that we are out to get somebody. And we weren't. We had no idea that this was out there."

The question now for investigators and prosecutors from Korea to Germany to the U.S. is how many people at Volkswagen knew and how far up that knowledge went."

http://www.npr.org/2015/09/24/443053672/how-a-little-lab-in-west-virginia-caught-volkswagens-big-cheat?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20150925