Clutch issues, 03 California

[pehayes]

To convert from a single plate, you need the clutch hub center to go on the transmission. I would replace the oring and seal on the transmission.

Actually, there are TWO different sized o-rings under the input shaft hub. Do them both.

Look at the pieces of the speedometer drive which you removed.  Do you see that little washer between the helical drive and the outer housing?  That is a thrust bearing.  There is another identical one for the bottom of the helical drive shaft.  Normally it stays down inside the transmission resting on a little support shelf and held in place by the sticky oil.  However, if you roll the transmission you have a fair chance of dislodging or losing that lower washer.  Get in there NOW with a flashlight and a magnet to pull it out and keep it with the speedo bits.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[pehayes]

Might be the adjustment.
The test (for me) is you have to make it tight enough so that when in gear engine running you can easily find netural.

Please don't make the clutch cable snug or tight.  Always keep freeplay.  A tight cable constantly loads the throwout bearing at the back of the transmission and it is not engineered for continuous load use.  It is a momentary use bearing.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Petrus Rocks]

Well good luck on finding a clutch Chris!  You can have it shipped to me while you are gone.  Plenty of Guzzi storage here

[vf84pc]

I have a 2004 California with the same clutch problem. I spoke with Dave in Moto International although those kits are listed he is unsure of their availability.
I priced out the pieces form Harpers and MG cycle no difference in cost from the factory kit. Dave and Curtis (From Harpers) said an option was relining the existing plate. The original was 6 mm and it should have been 6.5 mm Rochester brake and clutch said they can reline the plates.Their is a member on the board called cave he is in Syracuse he has the tools and is willing to lend them out.
I live near Batavia but work in Rochester so anything I can do to help just let me know.

[rodekyll]

If it's a reline-able plate any good brake shop should be able to reline it with the surface of your choice.  I worked at a custom brake shop that did nothing but that sort of thing all day.

[John A]

That eBay clutch is a ten spring unit which is preferable to an eight spring if you are heavy or have successfully modified for more power.I would buy that and replace the discs as well as the floater.

[Wayne Orwig]

At one time Greg Field talked about relining them to get them to last longer. I never heard what material he tried, or what results he got.

[Boj1]

At the risk of overstaying my welcome here....one more question.

What else would I get in a $500 used ebay clutch that I do not get in this new $725 kit from Moto International(besides the $225 and two months it would take to order from Italy where they do have them in stock)?

http://www.motointernational.com/store/clutch--flywheel-parts/twin-disc-clutchflywheel-kit

After a long winter away from the snow and this project, finally got back in town a few weeks ago. Ended up getting the kit above from Moto International and it seems to be just what I needed. Got it on the bike yesterday, still have a long way to go to get her all back together....

PS, I noticed that you pulled out the speedometer drive gear. Some times there was a hardened washer on the bottom of that gear that you do not want floating around in there. If it was there.

Look at the pieces of the speedometer drive which you removed.  Do you see that little washer between the helical drive and the outer housing?  That is a thrust bearing.  There is another identical one for the bottom of the helical drive shaft.  Normally it stays down inside the transmission resting on a little support shelf and held in place by the sticky oil.  However, if you roll the transmission you have a fair chance of dislodging or losing that lower washer.  Get in there NOW with a flashlight and a magnet to pull it out and keep it with the speedo bits.

The two quotes above have me concerned as i could find no washer or bearing where the speedometer drive was. I ended up removing the gearbox cover to verify it was not in there. I do not see anything on the parts diagrams but there have been many references to it so I am a bit concerned... Also, while in there does it make sense to replace the shifter return spring?

Thanks for any assistance,
Chris

[Dharma Bum]

If you're going in, definitely replace the shift spring!

[pehayes]

Unless Guzzi changed the design, your 5-speed should have 2 thrust washers on the speedo drive.  Often, they just stick in position held by the oil viscosity.  The lower one just rests on the shelf where the tip of the speedo drive gear resides.  Looking down the hole it might not be readily apparent that a steel washer is sitting atop an aluminum shelf.  A magnet might help.  Strong light and a long probe tool to reach to the bottom of the speedo drive hole and examine for a not-quite-so-loose washer.  Meanwhile the upper thrust washer should still be on the upper shaft of the drive gear or on the bottom tip of the outer housing.

How about posting a pic of your speed drive parts laid out?  We might spot something for you.  Consider that the speedo drive gear is a worm drive affair.  As such, during acceleration and deceleration, that gear is going to try and move up and down vertically.  Without thrust washers, the steel drive gear would quickly wear the surrounding aluminum.  If someone knows that the design has changed, please speak up.  Every 5-speed I have seen has two thrust washers.  They are likely never shown as individual parts but only sold as a combined package.  So, the washers don't have a unique part number.

Here is a parts diagram from early 5-speed LoopFrame.  Note one washer is clearly shown without a part number designation.  The second washer is in position half way up that shaft.  Also note that these parts are never shown as part of the transmission diagram.  They are shown as part of the instrument diagram page. 





Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Boj1]

How about posting a pic of your speed drive parts laid out?  We might spot something for you. 

As requested:







Sure does look like room for another washer down there.... It appears someone else has been in here to do work on the clutch. The writing on the starting gear says 11/5/07, assuming that means the clutch was changed(keeping a single plate????) in 07. My guess is they lost that washer...unless someone has a better explanation, I am going with that. Does not look like any wear on the cover, so I guess I will find a matching washer to the one that is on the worm drive. Cover is off and internals inspected so the washer is definitely not in there anywhere. Below is the parts explosion i was working off of that does not show any washers at all. I clearly have at least one...

[pehayes]

I doubt you will find any source for a new washer.  It is not a plain washer, but rather a hardened thrust washer to serve as a load bearing surface.  The good news is that every five speed has two of them.  They seldom wear.  So, you should be able to contact one of the salvage sources and get an original washer from another unit.  Contact Mark Etheredge at Moto Guzzi Classics or Ed Milich at GuzziPower.com

I'd still be curious about where that original went.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Wayne Orwig]

My 2004 EV did not have a lower washer. The direction of rotation means it likely isn't needed anyway.
The aluminum had no wear without it.

[pehayes]

My 2004 EV did not have a lower washer. The direction of rotation means it likely isn't needed anyway.
The aluminum had no wear without it.

Well, that is an important bit of news since the OP has an 03.  I wonder if anyone knows for certain when the system dropped from two to one.  Interesting data point could save someone a lot of grief and disassembly.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Boj1]

I like OMG's answer best as I do not have to do anything! :)

On a dif subject...I have yet to find any reason for the original issue of sticking in gear when the clutch was pulled. What should I look for? There is no obvious debris or worn parts.

[kirby1923]

This from John Noble's gearbox rebuild tutorial>concerning washers for speedo drive.

Although not a problem for most, I subsequently found the washers I had made were a bit too thick at
1.5mm and fitting both caused the drive and layshaft to lock, they should have been 1mm. Apparently
running the drive without washers is not a huge deal but not ideal. I overcame the problem by getting a
1mm spacer made to install under the top stationary collar which lifted the housing out of the endcase
and accounted for the extra thickness of the washers. This allowed me to run a top and bottom washer.
The washers spread the axial load of the spinning helical drive

[pehayes]

Here's a brief test that might give you some peace of mind about the non-existent second washer.  You'll need a common caliper with a depth probe slide (could potentially do it with a stick and ruler).  First measure the thickness of your existing washer.  By above report, that should be 1mm.  Now, compress your drive gear into the carrier housing and measure the distance from under the large hex head, to the bottom lip of the tip of the drive gear.  That is where the lower washer should reside.  You've just measured the MINIMUM internal distance required in the bore.  I copied and edited your pic:





Now, using the depth probe of your caliper, measure from the top lip sealing surface of the transmission housing down to the 'shelf' which bears the lower end of the gear.  Compare the dimensions.  Ideally, you wouldn't want this drive gear moving up or down very much and you wouldn't want the tightening of the top hex to bear or bind on the gear and washer(s).  Your internal depth should be at or slightly more than the measured length of your gear components.  If your interpolated gap is less than 1mm, then I'd go without a lower washer and conclude that you never had one.  If it should be substantially more than 1mm then you might want to consider use of a lower washer to close most of the gap.

Should be a simple measure and compute.  Can you report back?  This is really important to know that Guzzi may have a design change mid-stream.  I'd hate to have someone give me a pile of parts to rebuild and then stress over a potentially missing washer when one wasn't intended in the first place.  Obviously there are work-arounds, but it is good to know that the parts discrepancy exists from year to year.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA