Author Topic: Clutch issues, 03 California (Read 12074 times)

Boj1 · « **on:** September 29, 2015, 07:23:00 AM »

After spending the last two days going through the archives here....I think I have a clutch disc going bad. If anybody could help confirm this diagnosis, I would appreciate it.

A few rides ago, I stalled the bike coming to a stop with the clutch pulled in. Weird, I thought... but it only happened that once. Each subsequent ride, it has happened more and more where I pull the clutch in but the bike stays in gear. A blip of the throttle is usually enough to break the clutch free.

Clearly something is not right in there. About to start pulling the clutch apart to see what. Hoping for somebody to give me an easier fix. All the adjustments on the clutch cable seem fine, with no changes in pull and just a little bit of play. The rod that the arm where the cable attaches to is slightly sunk into the casting, not flush like I read it is supposed to be. Since I have bought it(less than a year and 1000 miles) it has occasionally had the clutch slip a little on takeoff. This is my first Guzzi so am still trying to identify problems from 'character'.

Thanks for any assistance,
Chris

fotoguzzi · « **Reply #1 on:** September 29, 2015, 07:39:34 AM »

how many miles on it? there are 3 adjustment points, at the lever on back, at the clutch lever on bar AND on the right side of the tranny where it bolts thru a flange, have you tried that adjustment? I'd want to be sure it was not just a cable set up before disassembling the clutch itself.

Dick · « **Reply #2 on:** September 29, 2015, 07:43:21 AM »

Did that year come with a single plate clutch, by chance?

Boj1 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 29, 2015, 08:18:52 AM »

ahhh, you guys want ALL the information :) sry

Bike has 27k on it and it is a dual plate clutch(verified through the inspection window based on pics from here). Cable seems to have the proper amount of freeplay and I did not notice it ever change. Would it still make sense to look at that adjustment on the clutch itself?

Wayne Orwig · « **Reply #4 on:** September 29, 2015, 08:37:55 AM »

Sounds like you have to go in.

No easy way to tell what is going on until you get in there.

kirby1923 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 29, 2015, 09:50:03 AM »

Might be the adjustment.
The test (for me) is you have to make it tight enough so that when in gear engine running you can easily find netural. Learned this from a long time guzzi guy here in France.
This is not to say you may be coming to the end if clutch life but you might try it.

m

JoeW · « **Reply #6 on:** September 29, 2015, 10:00:18 AM »

Your clutch hub is notched. Common problem back in the 80s, the 4mm spline was supposed to remedy this problem but, it's still an issue.

Dilliw · « **Reply #7 on:** September 29, 2015, 10:04:07 AM »

Where are you located? A second opinion could save you some trouble and there are many knowledgeable folks scattered around.

Boj1 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 29, 2015, 10:41:13 AM »

Quote from: Dilliw on September 29, 2015, 10:04:07 AM

Where are you located?

Rochester, NY

kidneb · « **Reply #9 on:** September 29, 2015, 11:33:06 AM »

Quote from: Wayne Orwig on September 29, 2015, 08:37:55 AM

Sounds like you have to go in.

No easy way to tell what is going on until you get in there.

+1

Though it sounds to me when I read your posts that it might be a clutch plate having gone into "shedding the friction material" mode. Starting with smaller chunks getting jammed between the plates.
Not the first time in history.
Also, I came to think of the possibility that your Cali model came with the spoked plates like this ? : http://www.harpermoto.com/29084450-clutch-plate-complete.html
They are prone to breaking, and are in my opinion reason enough to go in there and replace them with solid ones like this : http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=1165 as they often seem to break when you`re a long way from home. (emoticons not working today on my computer)

//Ben

Boj1 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 05, 2015, 10:40:43 AM »

Quote from: Wayne Orwig on September 29, 2015, 08:37:55 AM

Sounds like you have to go in.

No easy way to tell what is going on until you get in there.

Took me a while....but I am in there. Now what???

I have the gearbox off and am looking at the flywheel. Nothing obviously wrong...I expected something on the bottom of the housing, but all is clean in there(relatively). Looks like I need some special tools to do any further dis-assembly.

For reference, I have been following:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/access-gearbox-clutch-big-twin-en-2004-07-04.pdf

And this looks to be hugely helpful too:
http://archive.guzzitech.com/Clutch-joeM.html

Triple Jim · « **Reply #11 on:** October 05, 2015, 10:58:34 AM »

Quote from: JoeW on September 29, 2015, 10:00:18 AM

Your clutch hub is notched. Common problem back in the 80s, the 4mm spline was supposed to remedy this problem but, it's still an issue.

That seems to be the most likely cause of the problem. The clue was that when you blip the throttle, the clutch releases. The spline is worn and won't move smoothly.

Wayne Orwig · « **Reply #12 on:** October 05, 2015, 11:19:14 AM »

Look at the splines on the transmission. Are the notched or badly rusted?

Takes the ring gear off and inspect the clutch plates and intermediate plate. No special tools needed to remove the plates. You will want the alignment tool to put it back together though. I hear it can be done without the tool, but I wouldn't.
(put a paint mark on the bits so you can easily realign them.)

Dilliw · « **Reply #13 on:** October 05, 2015, 11:38:38 AM »

Pictures would help.

Boj1 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 05, 2015, 12:39:27 PM »

Let's see if this works from my Google acct....

Boj1 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 05, 2015, 12:47:39 PM »

Quote from: Wayne Orwig on October 05, 2015, 11:19:14 AM

Look at the splines on the transmission. Are the notched or badly rusted?

Takes the ring gear off and inspect the clutch plates and intermediate plate.

Nothing notched or rusted. The third pic above looks like metal flakes on the bottom of the housing. Had to go back out in shop and look again, ,it is just the angle of the pic. I think that is oily clutch residue.

To remove ring gear, just remove the 6 large bolts with yellow dots on them in my pic?

Is the plate in the very center suppose to rattle a little? it has a slight amount of movement.

kidneb · « **Reply #16 on:** October 05, 2015, 01:02:02 PM »

Ahh,- so it is a single plater after all !

It`s normal for those that the center piece rattle a little.

Wayne Orwig · « **Reply #17 on:** October 05, 2015, 02:00:30 PM »

WHAT!

You still have a single plate clutch?
How many miles on that?

That used a diagram spring, and the center release piece does float and can rattle if I recall.
Most of those filled the bell housing with glittery metal bits and started to slip over 10 years ago. But yours is not slipping, it is dragging. Very odd indeed.

PS, I noticed that you pulled out the speedometer drive gear. Some times there was a hardened washer on the bottom of that gear that you do not want floating around in there. If it was there.

Boj1 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 05, 2015, 03:10:39 PM »

Crap! When I bought this last year, I compared the view through the inspection port with the pics floating around here. Apparently wishful thinking got the best of me, thought it was the dual.... at lease i got the hydro valve update and forks issue correct.

All I know is the odometer says 24,589. Guy I bought if from says he put almost no miles on it as he came across a screaming deal on a new Triumph soon after purchasing this from the original owner. All other indications show this bike was well taken care of.....

Guess it is time to research what to do next. Not thrilled with spending over a grand in parts for a dual clutch on a bike I 'only' paid $2,500 for. Suggestions welcome.

rodekyll · « **Reply #19 on:** October 05, 2015, 03:21:52 PM »

Find used stuff on ebay. I sold my 'take off' dual plate clutch and flywheel complete for $450. So they can be had reasonably.

Triple Jim · « **Reply #20 on:** October 05, 2015, 03:42:09 PM »

The teeth in the bottom photo look pretty rusty on my monitor.

Guzzitucky · « **Reply #21 on:** October 05, 2015, 04:18:06 PM »

I'm new to this forum and also recently purchased an '03 California with a sticking, single-plate clutch.

I've got mine torn down and there's no "readily apparent" reason I can see for its malfunctioning. Now I'm waiting on a used dual-plate clutch and flywheel to arrive which I purchased on eBay (I bought it mostly for the flywheel and ring gear).

I've done a lot of research on this, so far: You'll need a double-clutch flywheel with ring gear, and a different clutch gear (the dual-plate gear is different) along with the rest of the dual-plate clutch parts. I'm hoping to find the special tools to borrow since I don't relish the thought of spending $200+ in special tools, if I can avoid it!

Boj1 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 06, 2015, 10:40:01 AM »

Excuse my ignorance....but I am way out of my comfort zone now.

Would this work to replace my single plate clutch?

If I have not said it before, thank you all for your assistance. This is one of the more helpful forums I have been on.

Guzzitucky · « **Reply #23 on:** October 06, 2015, 04:40:45 PM »

I'm not able to see the pic you attached, for some reason.

You managed to get the bike torn down and the gearbox removed: That's a big step.

Have you looked at the parts diagrams on guzzitek.org?

My used, dual-plate flywheel and clutch are due to arrive tomorrow and I'll be resuming work on my swap very soon...

kidneb · « **Reply #24 on:** October 06, 2015, 05:30:06 PM »

Quote from: Guzzitucky on October 06, 2015, 04:40:45 PM

I'm not able to see the pic you attached, for some reason.

Neither am I, but I guess it`s this one ? : http://www.ebay.com/itm/221198889035?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_ftrt%3D901%26_sop%3D12%26_sadis%3D15%26_dmd%3D1%26_ipg%3D50%26_ftrv%3D1%26_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D221198889035%26_rdc%3D1

Both 8- and 10 spring clutches will fit your bike.
I wouldn`t buy this set though, - notched flywheel and spoked friction plates.

BigDave in PA · « **Reply #25 on:** October 06, 2015, 10:27:45 PM »

[quote
I wouldn`t buy this set though, - notched flywheel and spoked friction plates.
[/quote]

I can see the notched flywheel but my '01 EV has over 97,000 miles on a clutch like that. I had it apart around 90k for a rear crankshaft seal and the clutch & u-joint still look as new.

Boj1 · « **Reply #26 on:** October 07, 2015, 07:03:07 AM »

Quote from: kidneb on October 06, 2015, 05:30:06 PM

Neither am I, but I guess it`s this one ? : http://www.ebay.com/itm/221198889035?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_ftrt%3D901%26_sop%3D12%26_sadis%3D15%26_dmd%3D1%26_ipg%3D50%26_ftrv%3D1%26_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D221198889035%26_rdc%3D1

Both 8- and 10 spring clutches will fit your bike.
I wouldn`t buy this set though, - notched flywheel and spoked friction plates.

That was the one I was looking at, tks. Looking like she will stay tore down for winter so I have time to find something good.

Thanks again for everybody's assistance.

Boj1 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 07, 2015, 07:38:51 AM »

Quote from: Guzzitucky on October 06, 2015, 04:40:45 PM

Have you looked at the parts diagrams on guzzitek.org?

My used, dual-plate flywheel and clutch are due to arrive tomorrow and I'll be resuming work on my swap very soon...

Yes I have seen that parts diagram. Good luck with your swap...i may be picking your brain in the near future

Boj1 · « **Reply #28 on:** October 09, 2015, 06:45:46 AM »

At the risk of overstaying my welcome here....one more question.

What else would I get in a $500 used ebay clutch that I do not get in this new $725 kit from Moto International(besides the $225 and two months it would take to order from Italy where they do have them in stock)?

http://www.motointernational.com/store/clutch--flywheel-parts/twin-disc-clutchflywheel-kit

In addition to the kit above, what else would I need besides the clutch centering tool? Sorry, that was 2 questions

Wayne Orwig · « **Reply #29 on:** October 09, 2015, 11:01:00 AM »

Quote from: Boj1 on October 09, 2015, 06:45:46 AM

At the risk of overstaying my welcome here....one more question.

What else would I get in a $500 used ebay clutch that I do not get in this new $725 kit from Moto International(besides the $225 and two months it would take to order from Italy where they do have them in stock)?

http://www.motointernational.com/store/clutch--flywheel-parts/twin-disc-clutchflywheel-kit

In addition to the kit above, what else would I need besides the clutch centering tool? Sorry, that was 2 questions

To convert from a single plate, you need the clutch hub center to go on the transmission. I would replace the oring and seal on the transmission.

You need to replace the screws and lock washers attaching the flywheel to the crank. They are not supposed to be reused. MGcycle has a kit.

If I were using used parts, I would replace the plates and maybe the springs if there are many miles on the used one. MGcycle has plates that are riveted AND bonded. I've had good luck with those.

But then that sort of makes up the cost difference for the used parts.

News:

Author Topic: Clutch issues, 03 California (Read 12074 times)

kirby1923

kidneb

kidneb

Guzzitucky

Guzzitucky

kidneb

BigDave in PA