Do Friends Let Friends Buy a Used ST4?

[Bill Hagan]

Friend of mine has the hots for Ducati ST4.

http://www.ducpond.com/new_vehicle_detail.asp?veh=5634&pov=4415143

I came close to buying one (or a ST3; I forget  ) instead of the Norge, but remember little of my "research" back then ... most of which was probably asking Wayne ... thus the Norge in my stable. 

My buddy has had a '84 BMW RsomethingR since new, and has been fixing up a '74 Honda 350 of some sort, so he can wrench well enough.

So, as I need to sound learned to my friend ,  any thoughts from the ducognoscenti on this as good or bad buy WRT reliability, fun, cost, etc.?

Grazie.

Bill

[blackcat]

A friend of mine had one and the maintenance cost killed his love of the bike. Sold it and bought a Guzzi.

[Peter from Sch'dy]

Speaking of valve train issues...rockers losing chrome taking out camshafts primarily. First evidence is chrome flakes on oil pickup screen. Problem apparently solved in the 998? Friend had one of these and after 2 rounds of warranty rocker replacement, traded it on an FJ which then wore its guides out in 5000 miles with no help from Yamaha. He's really happy with his liquid cooled Harley now. By the way, he loved the Duc but lost interest after the second valve job.

Best,
Peter

[Travlr]

I love those bikes.  One of the 2 or 3 best sport touring bikes IMHO.  The Terblanche design wears well.

Every time I think about buying one my mechanic reminds me about how much it costs to replace the flaking valves or do a tune up.

Instead he did an ST2 project for a customer.  Tweaked the motor and put on a late model superbike suspension.
Very nice bike and easy to maintain.

You could also get an ST4 with slagged valves for a few grand and put in a Testeratta 998/999 motor.

Mike 

[Nic in Western NYS]

I love my 04 with ABS.  Different nose and dash.  Flaking can happen on the 998 as well, but not as often.  The ST4s is a 996 as you know.  The flaking problem is more hit or miss than the flat tappet problem talked about on this list.  My understanding is that the flaking rocker problem is a known defect and is covered (except for the big labor cost) even if out of warranty period.  http://www.ducati.ms/forums/80-hall-wisdom/85302-rocker-arm-flaking.html

Great bike, a real handful, I have a 34" inseam and it fits well but probably wouldn't if my inseam were shorter.  Mine has heli bars which provide a great riding position for me.  Previous STs have had a problem starting when hot, sometimes they need to cool a bit before restarting. It's the best sport bike and best mile eater I've had.
Nic

[Lannis]

I love those bikes.  One of the 2 or 3 best sport touring bikes IMHO.  The Terblanche design wears well.

Every time I think about buying one my mechanic reminds me about how much it costs to replace the flaking valves or do a tune up.

Instead he did an ST2 project for a customer.  Tweaked the motor and put on a late model superbike suspension.
Very nice bike and easy to maintain.

You could also get an ST4 with slagged valves for a few grand and put in a Testeratta 998/999 motor.

Mike

Once these bikes are 20 or more years old, I wonder if they'll literally be worth ANYthing?

We are constantly trading Converts and Cal IIs and SP-NTs and SPIIs and SPIIIs and G5s and such, and people use them for serious touring, and put serious miles on them and rebuild as necessary.

But water-cooled Ducatis?    Fantastic when they're "new", but will people be holding on to them and riding them and fixing them up?

Lannis

[Nic in Western NYS]

Once these bikes are 20 or more years old, I wonder if they'll literally be worth ANYthing?

We are constantly trading Converts and Cal IIs and SP-NTs and SPIIs and SPIIIs and G5s and such, and people use them for serious touring, and put serious miles on them and rebuild as necessary.

But water-cooled Ducatis?    Fantastic when they're "new", but will people be holding on to them and riding them and fixing them up?

Lannis

Ah, Lannis raises an important but distinct question.  Wonderful modern Ducatis, even air cooled, are often not great investments.  The ST4s, whatever its investment characteristics, will leave you with an unseemly brown streak if you are not up to it. Take that to the bank. (Whether I am up to this bike has not yet been firmly established.)

[Lannis]

Ah, Lannis raises an important but distinct question.  Wonderful modern Ducatis, even air cooled, are often not great investments.  The ST4s, whatever its investment characteristics, will leave you with an unseemly brown streak if you are not up to it. Take that to the bank. (Whether I am up to this bike has not yet been firmly established.)

I think that the Ducati ST2 and ST3 and ST4 and Aprilia Futura are wonderfully performing bikes.

But I'm afraid that in the long-term span of time, like we Guzzi riders tend to think in, they will be little more than "nickel rockets" - great while they're all in one piece and one or two owners, but no one is going to be hauling an old one out of shed 15 years from now and getting it back on the road, like you could with a Cal II or something of that era?

Lannis

[Nic in Western NYS]

I think that the Ducati ST2 and ST3 and ST4 and Aprilia Futura are wonderfully performing bikes.

But I'm afraid that in the long-term span of time, like we Guzzi riders tend to think in, they will be little more than "nickel rockets" - great while they're all in one piece and one or two owners, but no one is going to be hauling an old one out of shed 15 years from now and getting it back on the road, like you could with a Cal II or something of that era?

Lannis

Yup, that's a great question with big implications regarding parts availability. We'll see, these STs might have more soul (and crazed lovers) than one might think...

[pikipiki]

He may soon be short of money, so long as you don't mind buying his beer down the pub.

[pyoungbl]

Having owned a ST2 and Multistrada 1000DS I think I can add to this discussion.

The good:  fantastic handling, wonderful engine, basically bulletproof....exce pt for the rockers (I think that problem is overblown)

The bad:  The ST series is a real PITA to work on due to all that plastic that must be removed.  Figure an hour to take the plastic off and those little fasteners just won't want to go back together like they are supposed to.  This PITA factor applies to lots of normal stuff like checking the battery.  You know that desmo valve checks are a challenge...more so on the 4V heads because so much is crammed into so little space.  The horizontal cylinder is bad, the vertical one.....much worse.  Plan to buy a shim kit an a bunch of extra half rings.  It's actually easier to take the heads off and do the job on the kitchen table.  The valves, once set, tend to stay in spec for a long time but you still need to check from time to time.  Oh, those $90 belts have to be changed too.  Plan on the clutch not lasting much more than 15,000 miles....$500 for basket and plates. 

I rode the ST2 from Virginia to California and back.  That was a great trip and the only mechanical issue was a starter solenoid on my brother's ST2.  On the highway these bikes were perfect, lots of power, good weather protection, enough storage, and actually pretty good fuel mileage.  Still, I would not buy another one.  For $5K you can get a lot of bike, other brands included.  It's very much a buyers market.

Peter Y.

[mtiberio]

duc pond is a good shop, can't go wrong there...

[swmckinley54]

The Aprilia Futura should not be lumped in with the Ducati. I owned a 2004 and put 30,000 miles on it. Motor built by Rotax and basically bullet proof. Change oil and tires and ride it.

[Lannis]

The Aprilia Futura should not be lumped in with the Ducati. I owned a 2004 and put 30,000 miles on it. Motor built by Rotax and basically bullet proof. Change oil and tires and ride it.

My bad.   You're right.

Lannis

[oldbike54]

 Yeah but who thought CB 350 Hondas would ever be collectible ? Or Cushmans ?

  Dusty

[Lannis]

Yeah but who thought CB 350 Hondas would ever be collectible ? Or Cushmans ?

  Dusty

But they're:

1) Made out of metal.

2) Simple with minimal unobtanium electronics and easy electrics

3) Made by the hundreds of thousands.    Hard to ever run out of parts.

A little different than an ST4 ....

Lannis

[Nic in Western NYS]

But they're:

1) Made out of metal.

2) Simple with minimal unobtanium electronics and easy electrics

3) Made by the hundreds of thousands.    Hard to ever run out of parts.

A little different than an ST4 ....

Lannis

I don't know if these criteria explain why the Honda 350 is collectible.  These criteria fit any popular bike of that vintage.  There is a certain something that makes a bike collectible.  Something that resonates with a discerning collector as special.  I have no idea if the STs will have that sort of cache in 20 years.  If they don't, it won't be because they have plastic on them, or because the electrics are complicated, or that there aren't parts.  It will be because they didn't stir enough souls.  Time will tell...

[Lannis]

  I have no idea if the STs will have that sort of cache in 20 years.  If they don't, it won't be because they have plastic on them, or because the electrics are complicated, or that there aren't parts.  It will be because they didn't stir enough souls.  Time will tell...

I ain't gonna be in the Army long enough, Sarge ....

[jas67]

Ah, Lannis raises an important but distinct question.  Wonderful modern Ducatis, even air cooled, are often not great investments.

There are those who said that about bevel twins, well, maybe not the Super Sport, but, the 750GT was probably not considered investment grade at some point in time.   

Now, Darmahs too are heading up in value, likely to be followed by the no-so-loved 860GT and only slightly less ugly 860GTS.

[pyoungbl]

Lannis, look at the Paul Smart series...could not give the darn things away when new, now gold plated.
Peter Y.

[K250]

Bill, not sure how to word this for a forum.  Would be easier in real life.

Owning an Exotic Italian motorcycle is exciting.  They are a TON of fun to listen to, look at, and ride.  There is a certain amount of commitment to it.  Your friend is mechanically inclined, so long as he doesn't mind buying some special tools and shims, and the service on this one is current, and reasonably priced, that bike represents a LOT of fun for not a lot of money...

I own a Ducati and have for years.  Don't do any work on it myself.  The local Duc mechanic is a good guy I trust.  Every three years mine goes in for a mid winter visit, full service with belts and valve adjust, and winter pricing on it isn't that bad. 

Life is SHORT ride what makes you smile!   

[wymple]

I think that the Ducati ST2 and ST3 and ST4 and Aprilia Futura are wonderfully performing bikes.

But I'm afraid that in the long-term span of time, like we Guzzi riders tend to think in, they will be little more than "nickel rockets" - great while they're all in one piece and one or two owners, but no one is going to be hauling an old one out of shed 15 years from now and getting it back on the road, like you could with a Cal II or something of that era?

Lannis

15 years?? That's not broken in good yet for us older Guzziphiles. My son and I both have 84's, 31 years old. And we are not afraid to get them out on the road. He took his V65C to Canada this year, a 2000 mile trip.

[Lannis]

Lannis, look at the Paul Smart series...could not give the darn things away when new, now gold plated.
Peter Y.

Of course, there are lots of "specialty" bikes like the Honda GB500, or John Player Nortons, or Paul Smart series Ducatis, or "sand-cast" CB750s that are huge collector's items now, much like Shelby Mustang GTs or Hemi Cudas - no big deal at the time, huge money now.

And the racers are buying up all the CB350s - there's a very popular race class for those now, and most of them are being put on the track.  Whooda thunk it?

I'm just comparing the common-or-garden variety 2004 Ducati STs of 2035 to the 1980 Tonti Guzzi of 2015.   What will be their fate?   We know what we're using the Guzzis for ... we're RIDING them!!

Lannis

[jbell]

There are those who said that about bevel twins, well, maybe not the Super Sport, but, the 750GT was probably not considered investment grade at some point in time.   

Now, Darmahs too are heading up in value, likely to be followed by the no-so-loved 860GT and only slightly less ugly 860GTS.
[/quote

Yaaaaaayyy.   

[JeffOlson]

I miss my Ducati ST2. Of all the bikes I have owned, it was the one that most stirred my soul (and my wife's!). It was not the most practical (that was my Norge) or the one I fiddled with the most (that was my Triumph Thruxton, with thousands of dollars of after-market bits). It was the one that sounded the best, looked the most exotic, and handled the best. [Snif...]

[Nic in Western NYS]

I miss my Ducati ST2. Of all the bikes I have owned, it was the one that most stirred my soul (and my wife's!). It was not the most practical (that was my Norge) or the one I fiddled with the most (that was my Triumph Thruxton, with thousands of dollars of after-market bits). It was the one that sounded the best, looked the most exotic, and handled the best. [Snif...]

That's what I'm talkin' about.... QUACK!

[nc43bsa]

A guy here in town has a ST4S that he converted into a replica Paul Smart Replica.  IIRC, he didn't permanently modify anything, so it could be refitted back to original;  I believe he still has the OEM parts.

[Chuck in Indiana]

As for the original question.. just how good a mechanic is he?  I had an ST2 and it was a great bike. I understand the ST3 is the best of the lot. ST4? Woo hee. That's a mechanic's dream. The ST2 is a piece of cake. Takes longer to pull the plastic than to do the valves. *I don't know, because I haven't done one, * but I understand doing the valves on an ST4 is an engine out job.
That sounds mondo expensive to me. <shrug> Unless you do it yourself..

[guzziboy66]

JUST MY OPINION HERE - I'M NOT A DUCATI SAGE

Yes, they are a PITA to get to the valves and then to do them.
Rockers can be changed out with hardened versions - costly, but worth it if you plan to ride it a long time.
These rarely see high mileage (30,000?)  And it's a shame because the more miles, the less the valves actually change.
Put in hardened rockers, Regularly change the belts (every 2 yrs, cheap insurance) and check the valve clearances regularly...
Eventually it all becomes second nature and no big deal.

After typing all of that I have to admit that I got rid of Duc and got a GRiSO...


Eric