The way back machine - 8v vs 2v/cyl comparison

[ohiorider]

I was looking over some older articles that were published about the time the Griso and 1200 Sport had the 4v (8v) engine transplanted into them.  And every article emphasized 'if you really want low down grunt, spring for the old 2v engine.'

Much as I love my old 2v 1200 Sport, there is no way it had the grunt down low, in the middle, or at the top exhibited by my 1200 Griso 8vSE.

Which begs the question ...... was the original 8v mapping so bad that magazine editors felt that the 8v was only at its best past 5000rpm?  Or did one editor simply encounter a badly tuned bike, assumed they all ran that way, published the article, and all the other lemmings followed suit?

I never rode an 8v except for my 2012 model, but I cannot imagine the first versions of the 8v being that much of a slug at lower rpms.

Bob

[oldbike54]

 Bob , did Guzzisteve set up your Griso , or was it the Sport ?

  Dusty

[Chuck in Indiana]

The Mighty Scura will take your 8V.. for a while. 

[canuguzzi]

Mag editors test bikes as they come from the factory. What good is a test if it isn't what you buy? We can say better maps make a difference, not everyone will get one.

Same with tires and brake pads. Put super sticky tires on a bike and test it against one with factory tires, can be a huge difference.

BTW, how many bikes made today can beat the old Suzuki Water Buffalo 60-0 in 117 feet?

[Vasco DG]

The early G8 mapping was really very ordinary. The GRS8V-01 map had nothing at the bottom and then a huge surge at 5.5K, it felt like a 2-stroke coming on the pipe but not in a good way.

The 68S map which was not homologated for road use was a huge improvement, in fact it remains, in my opinion, the pick of the factory maps. The GRS8V-03 map which is what is used on all of them post about 2011 is an improvement but it's a real compromise and remains pretty unexciting compared to what can be developed by someone with the requisite skills and Tunerpro.

There is no longer any need to pay either silly money for half arsed solutions or put up with e poorly developed mediocrity of the factory maps.

Pete

[oldbike54]

BTW, how many bikes made today can beat the old Suzuki Water Buffalo 60-0 in 117 feet?

 Not even a Suzuki water buffalo 

  Dusty

[ohiorider]

Bob , did Guzzisteve set up your Griso , or was it the Sport ?

  Dusty

The Griso.  Eddie's Vintage Motorcycles set up the 1200 Sport.  I think the Sport runs about as well as it can with stock mapping.  Good mileage, more than adequate acceleration, though not brutish like the '12 Griso.  I think an interesting bike would be (but one I'll never see) is a 1400 Sport.  Think Guzzi is on a different path now.  That's ok as long as that path includes a 1200 or 1400 standard (said oh so many times ..... a big block in V7 drag.)

Pete, I didn't realize the original map was THAT far off the mark.  Apparently those early ride reports weren't far off when they talked about the Griso coming alive over 5000rpm. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

The Griso.  Eddie's Vintage Motorcycles set up the 1200 Sport.  I think the Sport runs about as well as it can with stock mapping.  Good mileage, more than adequate acceleration, though not brutish like the '12 Griso.  I think an interesting bike would be (but one I'll never see) is a 1400 Sport.  Think Guzzi is on a different path now.  That's ok as long as that path includes a 1200 or 1400 standard (said oh so many times ..... a big block in V7 drag.)

Pete, I didn't realize the original map was THAT far off the mark.  Apparently those early ride reports weren't far off when they talked about the Griso coming alive over 5000rpm.

Centauro was the same way, only worse.  When I test rode one, I was wondering if I would make it back to the dealer's place except at WFO..  Of course, I bought one.  I knew that with the help of the COG and eventually WG.. it would get sorted. It did.

[toogrey]

Hello all,
I'm new to the forum. I just purchased a 2014 Griso, love the styling but what's up with the low RPM performance?  This thing must really be setup lean.. is there any better ECU mapping available?  I'm not trying to make it scream but there's got to be something better...Help. I've owned a couple Guzzi's before and had to install a PC's to get them to run right.  Thanks.
Otis

[rocker59]

Hello all,
I'm new to the forum. I just purchased a 2014 Griso, love the styling but what's up with the low RPM performance?  This thing must really be setup lean.. is there any better ECU mapping available?  I'm not trying to make it scream but there's got to be something better...Help. I've owned a couple Guzzi's before and had to install a PC's to get them to run right.  Thanks.
Otis

Define "low RPM". 

[toogrey]

Define "low RPM". 

Low RPM...from idle to about 4500, after that she starts to really pull and smooth out.

[Vasco DG]

Providing the throttle bodies haven't been messed with and it has been tuned properly it should fuel up OK but rather uninspiringly. Yes, they can be made to run much, much better for very little outlay but it is vital that you read up and find out how to tune a W5AM bike and to understand why the Guzzi 8V is so different to most other contemporary engines before you start messing with things.

As a starter DO NOT be tempted to try and alter the idle speed by playing with the throttle stop screw and don't be tempted by open pipes and rock strainer air filters. These will not improve performance but will destroy tractability and fuel economy.

Pete

[Wayne Orwig]

Low RPM...from idle to about 4500, after that she starts to really pull and smooth out.

Smooth out?
Sounds like you may want to first invest in a proper throttle body setup.
As mentioned, don't just start turning screws.
 

[toogrey]

Providing the throttle bodies haven't been messed with and it has been tuned properly it should fuel up OK but rather uninspiringly. Yes, they can be made to run much, much better for very little outlay but it is vital that you read up and find out how to tune a W5AM bike and to understand why the Guzzi 8V is so different to most other contemporary engines before you start messing with things.

As a starter DO NOT be tempted to try and alter the idle speed by playing with the throttle stop screw and don't be tempted by open pipes and rock strainer air filters. These will not improve performance but will destroy tractability and fuel economy.

Pete

Thanks,
I've be bouncing around different sites trying get smart on the whole mapping thing.  I figured not to mess with the throttle or idle screws.  I'm pretty satisfied with the stock exhaust right now, its decent sounding.  I have learned from experience opening up the exhaust seems to kill the bottom end and or move to power band higher. I'm willing to keep the torque at the expense of HP.
I've don't loaded Guzzidiag, waiting for the cables to arrive, to check the TPS.  The only thing I've done so far is adjust the valves. Intake at .006 and exh at .008

[wymple]

"BTW, how many bikes made today can beat the old Suzuki Water Buffalo 60-0 in 117 feet?"

Showing a little respect for one of the coolest bikes ever created

[bad Chad]

Seems highly unlikly a Water/Buf could stop anywhere close to 117 feet given the state of brake and tire tech at the time.

[Vasco DG]

Thanks,
I've be bouncing around different sites trying get smart on the whole mapping thing.  I figured not to mess with the throttle or idle screws.  I'm pretty satisfied with the stock exhaust right now, its decent sounding.  I have learned from experience opening up the exhaust seems to kill the bottom end and or move to power band higher. I'm willing to keep the torque at the expense of HP.
I've don't loaded Guzzidiag, waiting for the cables to arrive, to check the TPS.  The only thing I've done so far is adjust the valves. Intake at .006 and exh at .008

Valve clearances for roller motor are 4 and 6. You need a manometer and Guzzidiag or equivalent to tune the engine correctly. Unless it is tuned correctly you're on a hiding to nothing.

Pete

[toogrey]

Valve clearances for roller motor are 4 and 6. You need a manometer and Guzzidiag or equivalent to tune the engine correctly. Unless it is tuned correctly you're on a hiding to nothing.

Pete

I've read about clearances of both 4 and 6, and also 6 and 8.  She seemed to run a bit better set at 6 and 8, I figured better to err on too loose rather than too tight to start off.  I got the bike with only 6100 miles on it so I decided at a minimum to check the valves.  The left side was pretty much at spec(6 and 8) the right cylinder was pretty loose.
Would an electronic manometer work, I think it's call a Twin-max it's a leftover from my BMW days?
Otis

[Rough Edge racing]

Mag editors test bikes as they come from the factory. What good is a test if it isn't what you buy? We can say better maps make a difference, not everyone will get one.

Same with tires and brake pads. Put super sticky tires on a bike and test it against one with factory tires, can be a huge difference.

BTW, how many bikes made today can beat the old Suzuki Water Buffalo 60-0 in 117 feet?

 How do you know the bikes are as they left the factory?.  Does the factory fine tune the bikes loaned to journalists for testing reports? Reading through mags like Cycle and many bikes before electronic engine management were prepared by tuners before the journalists got them...That was then and maybe still the same way?
  Is 117 feet from 60 mph a good distance today? What would make a 70's bike stop so quickly?

[Vasco DG]

I've read about clearances of both 4 and 6, and also 6 and 8.  She seemed to run a bit better set at 6 and 8, I figured better to err on too loose rather than too tight to start off.  I got the bike with only 6100 miles on it so I decided at a minimum to check the valves.  The left side was pretty much at spec(6 and 8) the right cylinder was pretty loose.
Would an electronic manometer work, I think it's call a Twin-max it's a leftover from my BMW days?
Otis

Twin Max is a pretty shitty tool but it will do in a pinch.

Read up on how to do the TB balance and be aware that you have to be ace to recalibrate the TPS after balancing so don't screw wth anything until you can do that. If the high seed balance results in a TPpS reading much over 5.3 the spark advance will cause the engine to race. You have to make sure it's recalibrated to 4.8 or it will simply exacerbate any issues you have.

Pete

[toogrey]

Twin Max is a pretty shitty tool but it will do in a pinch.

Read up on how to do the TB balance and be aware that you have to be ace to recalibrate the TPS after balancing so don't screw wth anything until you can do that. If the high seed balance results in a TPpS reading much over 5.3 the spark advance will cause the engine to race. You have to make sure it's recalibrated to 4.8 or it will simply exacerbate any issues you have.

Pete

Ok, I'll need to wait for my cables to arrive then to set the TPS. Sounds good I'll do some more reading up on the TB balance. I'll look for a decent manometer. Thanks Pete

[Travlr]

The Mighty Scura will take your 8V.. for a while. 

 

>The 68S map which was not homologated for road use was a huge improvement, the pick of the factory maps.

 

Mike

[oldbike54]

Seems highly unlikly a Water/Buf could stop anywhere close to 117 feet given the state of brake and tire tech at the time.

 2015 Aprillia Tuono can do 60 to 0 in 115 ft with Don Canet on board . That 117 ft figure for a Kettle is absurd .

  Dusty

[ohiorider]

Low RPM...from idle to about 4500, after that she starts to really pull and smooth out.

Toogrey, I think you may have a few issues with your Griso (either that, or my 2012 8vSE, set up by GuzziSteve, was as good as it got!)  My particular Griso pulled like a train from anywhere over 2500-3000rpm to redline.  No apparent flat spots.  Having said that, one of our map gurus might think me way off course, since I don't know what I don't know about what can be done to make the Griso really come alive.

However, I was more than satisfied with the Griso performance.  My issue was the suspension that I just couldn't get right, so I could ride my favorite roads that were less than perfect from a surface standpoint.

Anyway, hope you get yours set up so that it is all the bike it can be.  The Griso, had I been a few years younger, and more willing to experiment with (and spend money on) suspension tweaks, could have been my all time favorite machine.  I'm sorry it wasn't.

Bob

[toogrey]

Toogrey, I think you may have a few issues with your Griso (either that, or my 2012 8vSE, set up by GuzziSteve, was as good as it got!)  My particular Griso pulled like a train from anywhere over 2500-3000rpm to redline.  No apparent flat spots.  Having said that, one of our map gurus might think me way off course, since I don't know what I don't know about what can be done to make the Griso really come alive.

However, I was more than satisfied with the Griso performance.  My issue was the suspension that I just couldn't get right, so I could ride my favorite roads that were less than perfect from a surface standpoint.

Anyway, hope you get yours set up so that it is all the bike it can be.  The Griso, had I been a few years younger, and more willing to experiment with (and spend money on) suspension tweaks, could have been my all time favorite machine.  I'm sorry it wasn't.

Bob

ohiorider, I am a little older also, I'll be 60 in Feb and am reasonably satisfied with the Griso at lower RPM. The higher RPM rush is definitely fun, but hardly what I'd be dipping into that often. Don't ready need the tickets! I had a choice of 2008 2V Sport or the Griso, I chose the Griso because of the deal the dealer gave me on my Triumph 1600.  The Sport would have been a private party buy.  The Triumph has a great motor but it just got to be too heavy and cumbersome for the riding I enjoy now.  I have a 2001 Jackal that I purchased to teach my wife to ride, I was finding that I really enjoyed riding the Jackal, the Triumph was getting ridden less and less. I'm thinking that the Sport would have more of that relaxing feeling that I enjoy so much with the Jackal. I think the 2V motor is just a bit more relaxed for the way I'd use it, mainly around town and short day trips to the mountains. I thought about a V7 but the power was a little lacking and at 6'2" 230 lbs its a bit cramped and feels too small. The Griso is a great looking bike but the engine just seems to have that "urgent want to run" feel about it to me, it reminds me of my Ducati days. How do you like your Sport?

Otis

[Wayne Orwig]

Would an electronic manometer work, I think it's call a Twin-max it's a leftover from my BMW days?

I use a Twinmax. It absolutely will do the job, if that is what you have.
But I would never recommend it, if someone wanted to buy one..

You want the GuzziDiag software and cables.

[jlburgess]

>The 68S map which was not homologated for road use was a huge improvement, the pick of the factory maps.

 

Mike

+1. Pete loaded the 068 map in my bike several years ago.  End of flat midrange.  I think it's called a "diagnostic map" wink, nudge. I also put the db killer back in my Zard pipe and woke it up even more.  Again Pete's suggestion.  We should give that guy a pay raise! 

[canuguzzi]

Not even a Suzuki water buffalo 

  Dusty

As seems to be the usual case, you can't even imagine half the things others know.
http://www.abacuscaralarms.co.uk/bikes/Test_Reports/Suzuki_GT750_H2_test.html

The collective memories of a lot of people who also read the published tests of the 60-0 stopping distance of 117' by the GT750 is there for the culling.

The report above show the distance to be 118' but bested by other tests. I can still remember those years, you?

For some reason, some can't believe a 70s era bike couldn't stop that quickly. 

[ohiorider]

ohiorider, I am a little older also, I'll be 60 in Feb and am reasonably satisfied with the Griso at lower RPM. The higher RPM rush is definitely fun, but hardly what I'd be dipping into that often. Don't ready need the tickets! I had a choice of 2008 2V Sport or the Griso, I chose the Griso because of the deal the dealer gave me on my Triumph 1600.  The Sport would have been a private party buy.  The Triumph has a great motor but it just got to be too heavy and cumbersome for the riding I enjoy now.  I have a 2001 Jackal that I purchased to teach my wife to ride, I was finding that I really enjoyed riding the Jackal, the Triumph was getting ridden less and less. I'm thinking that the Sport would have more of that relaxing feeling that I enjoy so much with the Jackal. I think the 2V motor is just a bit more relaxed for the way I'd use it, mainly around town and short day trips to the mountains. I thought about a V7 but the power was a little lacking and at 6'2" 230 lbs its a bit cramped and feels too small. The Griso is a great looking bike but the engine just seems to have that "urgent want to run" feel about it to me, it reminds me of my Ducati days. How do you like your Sport?

Otis

If I shower any more praise on the 1200 Sport on this forum, I'll get booted off! 

She still provides a relaxed, comfortable ride after 62,000 miles.  A plush ride, by comparison with my recently-sold Griso.  I don't find the 1200 Sport lacking in performance, but in a straight line drag, my seat of the pants dyno say the Griso would have eaten the Sport alive starting the run at any speed.   I think I set the red flashing 'shift' light to come on at approx. 7200rpm on both bikes, and either bike was ready to keep on spinning up.

I think you're correct on two counts ..... the Sport is a more relaxing ride (IMO) than my Griso was, and yes, the 8vSE did have that "urgent want to run" feel to it.  That bike would roll from 70 to 100 quicker than my reflexes could keep up.  Or for that matter, from 30 to 70!  It was a little bulldog.  I'd love to have that engine in roller version in a big Guzzi standard, or, for that matter, in the 8v Sport that was only made available overseas, but not in N America.  8v Stelvio is too big/tall for me, and I have no interest in the 8v Norge.

EDIT: Either the Griso or 1200 Sport would be a hoot on AZ 89/89A from Prescott to Jerome.  Unfortunately, both times I've been on this stretch of highway, I've been driving, not riding!

[oldbike54]

As seems to be the usual case, you can't even imagine half the things others know.
http://www.abacuscaralarms.co.uk/bikes/Test_Reports/Suzuki_GT750_H2_test.html

The collective memories of a lot of people who also read the published tests of the 60-0 stopping distance of 117' by the GT750 is there for the culling.

The report above show the distance to be 118' but bested by other tests. I can still remember those years, you?

For some reason, some can't believe a 70s era bike couldn't stop that quickly. 

 Yep , remember them well . In fact , had friends then AND now that own(ed) kettles . No way no how would a steamer stop that quickly from 60 MPH . Lots of testing done in that era was suspect.
I guess you are telling us that a 1970's motorbike with single piston brakes and period tires would stop as rapidly as some of the best modern bikes , sorry dude .

  Dusty