Flat Tappet Recall for 8v - Complaint Pending with US Recall Agency

[ohiorider]

I no longer own an 8v Guzzi.  Not because of the potential issue with the flat tappets, but more because I didn't want to throw what I thought would be a bunch of $$ at taming the very rough suspension.  I was fearful I'd end up with something different than stock, but not an improvement over stock.  so she's gone.

So, I now have no dog in the fight.

But I keep noticing that several posts talk about how small a boutique manufacturer like Guzzi is, and how a total recall would wreck them ..... and I have to ask myself .... how big is Piaggio?

As I recall reading, Piaggio is one of the largest manufacturers of two-wheel transportation in the world.  Doing a recall, and reimbursing the dealers in cash for time spent fixing the problem shouldn't bankrupt them.  Sure, it'll hurt them a bit, but they won't be the first manufacturer to be hit with recalls that hurt.

OTOH, if Piaggio is attempting to dump the problem on their tiny subsidiary, Guzzi, then that is a different story.

With my limited knowledge of things legal (aside from a divorce several years ago) I'd say it's time for Piaggio Corporate, not little Moto Guzzi, to step up to the plate and do the right thing.

Bob

[canuguzzi]

Many motorcycle recalls for safety related concerns cite an component that causes or could cause the engine to stop running.

HD, Honda, Kawasaki and just about every motorcycle manufacture says that loss of engine operation while riding can be a cause of a crash. It isn't a debate, they are on record saying it and have recalled bikes because of it.

You don't have to believe me, but arguing that losing engine operation while riding isn't dangerous or that it could cause a crash goes against common knowledge and the accepted positions of the largest and second largest motorcycle manufacturers in the world.

The NTSA supports those positions. Something does not need to happen for a regulatory agency to demand the potential problem be fixed. A regulatory agency can also send and advice to the appropriate agency if it believes it is not the one. It is their duty to report.

Sure, the tappets might take a while to fail. So what? They start failing during the warranty period, not wearing normally. Owners are not reasonable expected to inspect the tappets other than what is required by scheduled maintenance. If the maintenance schedule does not include inspecting the tappets for the problem as described then no one needs to do it.

What is said on some forum is not considered notification to do anything. If Moto Guzzi put out a service bulletin then the inspection should take place. Anyone see one advising owners to inspect their tappets?

[rocker59]

Load up your bike, passenger included, enter a sharp lean over turn and hit the kill switch as if you weren't expecting it. Make sure the turn is off camber with an incline.

Better yet, get really crossed up, you know the kind and do the same thing.

Do post a video cause I like a laugh as much as you do. Make sure to be on the nerf road when you do it.

But having read the posts here about people falling over in driveways and such with no other traffic in sight, maybe a non running engine works better for them.

If all that is too much, here is the easy way. Sit on your favorite bike, feet up, stand stads up, engine off. Take a still picture and show everyone how its done.

I can't wait.

NP,

I've lost power on more than one occasion over the past twenty years on a couple different bikes.

Guess what?  The bike didn't fall over, and I didn't crash.

Usually, it's been running out of fuel.  But on one occasion, I was 2-up on my Quota when the engine locked up because of loss of oil pressure.  A quick grab of the clutch lever, and all was good.

A two-wheeled vehicle does not need a running engine to stay upright.  The gyro effect of the two rolling wheels does that.

Coast down a hill sometime on your Norge with the engine off, if you dare, and report back.

[rocker59]

I really don't understand why you guys are arguing with Norge Pilot.  He's the only one posting on this that has worked as a govt regulator.  Everyone is pretending to know something and one guy here has some real experience.

This recall deal might be a long shot but man, you're a bunch of naysayers.

Oh great.  That explains it.

He probably stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, too...

[rocker59]

So essentially someone would have to convince the NTSA that a failed tappet could stall the motor? How do you do that  without an actual case of that happening?

I think Norge Pilot is volunteering.

[LowRyter]

No , my intent was to prevent a misguided attempt at embarrassing other members .

  Dusty

then I totally don't see your point.

[LowRyter]

Oh great.  That explains it.

He probably stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, too...

my goodness,  aren't we all the cat's growl. 

[bad Chad]

Ok, I'm askin NP, because you said you know multipal people who have crashed because of engine failure, what were the circumstances?   I don't personally know anyone who suffered such, but you have knowledge of multipal events. Bad luck maybe?

[kirb]

I didn't want to throw what I thought would be a bunch of $$ at taming the very rough suspension.

Grisos are typically very harsh out of the crate due to the comp damping cranked way down. I can make my Griso ride like a gold wing or stout like a track bike with a few clicks. I lowered the forks in the trees and set up the suspenders correctly...it works. It'll never handle like a sport bike, but you can get pretty close with the stock bits.

Sorry, didn't mean to derail the love fest...

[canuguzzi]

Ok, I'm askin NP, because you said you know multipal people who have crashed because of engine failure, what were the circumstances?   I don't personally know anyone who suffered such, but you have knowledge of multipal events. Bad luck maybe?

Loss of engine operation.  Also, that was the only instance I know of where a bike engine stalled with the bike in motion other than letting the clutch out too quickly and you know, the stall.

Does everyone who falls report it to some database we can look up? Nope. Lots of people fall, pick the bike up and never give it a second though if they are ok, they figure something happened. There could be many people who have fallen or crashed because of engine failure or loss of engine operation, there is no place to go to find all of them and if they said nothing, you don't know about it. The Internet is not the sum of all knowledge or experience.

It is not bad luck when an engine fails to operate when the bike is being ridden, something is wrong. Either the rider messed up or the engine messed up or some component that affects the engine messed up.

The situation was this:

Going through some mountain passes or what pass as mountains in California (hills everywhere else). Up hill, road off camber (seems to be a California design affliction) and sharp turns. Other rider was fully loaded up but no over weight. Had his wife on back. The turns would go from 30-40 mph to some that meant going maybe 10 mph.

He rode into the turn at about 20 I guess and it was one of those that had you lean way over and then power out up the incline. Midway to power out and the engine coughed real loud and died. There was no recovery. There was not enough momentum I am guessing, to let the bike straighten out and get it upright. I am certain that oncoming traffic would have made that unwise in any case.

Down they went. She did the knees, hands and chin thing, I didn't see exactly what he did other than they both made it out of that mess ok. That was about 20 or so years ago.

Look, I get it, the thing is, this isn't about me as some are trying to make it out to be. Why I don't know but not wanting to face the fact that an engine failure in a motorcycle  can cause a crash leaves me to believe some people would rather try to argue things already proven.

You know, things happen to people all the time and just because they didn't happen to us doesn't mean they don't happen. This "it never happened to me" is BS, so what if it never happened to me? I never had a car accelerate by itself either but would I be the dumbass if I said because of that all the Toyota Priius owners who experienced it were crazy.

Some riders are better riders than others too. Some might be able to compensate for an engine failure, goodie for them. That isn't everyone though so it means squat.

Engine failure isn't a matter of luck, something goes wrong. You don't buy a bike and depend on luck for the thing to run right or be built right.

The whole point is and I've presented more than enough evidence to prove it true, is that an engine failure while the bike is being operated can precipitate a crash. That means it is a safety issue and the NTSA agrees and has said as much. If they will see it that way for this issue remains to be seen but even if not, there are other ways and avenues to continue pushing until MG does the right thing.

I hope the OP succeeds and the NTSA declares it a safety issue or finds some other cause to make them recall all the affected bikes and compensate those that paid for the fix themselves. If not, perhaps some consumer protection agency will take it on, all the OP needs is that California flat tappet 8V rider.  Maybe it is time someone ran it up far enough to make them cough up canolies and they will simply do what is proper, in the end it doesn't cost them a penny, it creates good will and people buy bikes if they think that they will be reliable and that the company stands behind their products.

MG is wrong on this. It isn't even a question.

[Vasco DG]

It will cost the dealer though.

Pete

[canuguzzi]

It will cost the dealer though.

Pete

Pete, if you were my dealer I would make sure that you were not out of pocket to do the repair, not one penny.

That is me though.

 I have always done this on major warranty work if I knew the dealer was taking it in the shorts. When my Honda 750F had the bad vale guides, I contributed to make it fair because I see the dealer as more than just someone to use but someone to collaborate with to keep the bikes I have in top performance. I don't hold them responsible for bad design or faulty assembly at the factory.

Dealers do not lose money on my warranty repairs. I try to have them do other services in coordination with the warranty work. Tomorrow my Norge goes in because of the oil weeping out if the cable stay holes on the swing arm. While they are doing that I'll have them check the swing arm bearings for grease, flush the rear brake fluid and check all the fasteners. Simple stuff and maybe not even needed. It evens things out.

But they take care of me so I take care of them.

[George_S]

Lucian, don't waste your time. He knows everything.
There have been recalls over equipment and engine parts before, but not by the U.S. government. They were voluntary recalls issued by the manufacturers. Even when there were many instances of engines suddenly shutting down (BMW K1600GTs is one of them) the government didn't entertain any requests. Several years ago I was told by NHSTA in so many words that there has to be shown there were injuries, deaths, or an extreme likelihood of injury or death from a part failure for them to get involved. Obviously, not every manufacturer defect falls under those "rules".

[lucian]

Personally I wish NP and the OP all the luck in the world with this. But I don't think I'll hold my breath waiting for a check from Piaggio for the $1400 bucks the C kit costs me. At least they did design a fix for the problem. Imagine where all the 8v owners would be now if they hadn't. And jump through a couple of reasonable hoops and get a $1400.00 dollar kit free, I just don't see what all the fuss is about. I'll save my energy for life's real problems. Why kick a niche manufacturer of cool bikes in the nuts when their down? I kinda get the step up if you've f'd up argument, but I think they have done that to the satisfaction of many and probably many more to come. Did it damage the brand? I don't believe it, I love my custom and have not had a single problem with it and would buy it again tomorrow even knowing what I know. To try and pin a safety related claim against anyone without the issue at hand ever even remotely causing an unsafe condition seems like two wrongs trying to make something wright. Not my fight but good luck.

[Demar]

A two-wheeled vehicle does not need a running engine to stay upright.  The gyro effect of the two rolling wheels does that.

It's not the gyro effect that keeps a bike (motorcycle and bicycle) balanced and upright. The balancing of the center of mass does that. Have you seen a bicyclist stay upright at a stoplight with no forward motion. That is center of mass balance. What the gyro effect helps to do is provide resistance to motion. That's why it's easier to balance when you're moving. The faster the wheels spin the greater resistance there is to get out of balance from a balanced position. A spinning mass will want to keep going in the direction it's already going.

From Wikipedia " Hence gyroscopic forces do not provide any resistance to tipping."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics

Rocker is correct about the engine off rolling downhill. The bike will want to continue to stay upright more than it wants to tip because it was already moving in that direction. That's why a truck wheel (and skinny bicycle wheel) will roll downhill and not tip over.

[canuguzzi]

Not everyone rides a constant downhill. Basically, one scenario was taken and turned into something it wasn't and then attempted to be turned into the entire premise of the issue.

Let's be clear, a motorcycle going downhill with the engine off still has acceleration and forward motion right? What happens is that gravity takes the place of the energy usually imparted by the engine to produce forward momotion. If the argument is replacing one means of forward motion with another, OK, replace the gasoline engine with an electric one, so what?

Using a motorcycle going downhill as an example is ludicrous, engine on or not, the bike is still moving forward right? Now remove the downhill since they all come to and end at some point. Just how long before the bike falls over without putting your feet down?

I'd still like to see the video of a feet up, stands up going uphill with sudden loss of engine in a hard leaned over turn and the result of rider, passenger and luggage. Out of 100 riders, how many would fall?

I have yet to see motorcycle riders doing the balancing act at stop lights but maybe it happens in some places. As an example it doesn't apply except in theory because probably not more than one in a thousand riders, if that could balance their bike with a passenger on it without feet or foot down or while in motion.

However, a motorcycle without a running motor is rather useless as it sits. Here, the cause is kniwn, the responsible identified, it just comes down to who writes the checks: the people it was done to or the people doing it.

[canuguzzi]

Yeah well , Swedish medical researchers like to quote Bob Dylan in research papers .

  Dusty

And the only cure they came up with was for wrinkles.

[bad Chad]

We seem to have a seriousness pissing match at play here

I'm not real smart, but if we were all sitting around a fire, suronded by tents and cool motorcycles, we would have put this to bed by now.   And at this point a bottle of George Dickel would start to make its wAy around the circle, and all would be ok.

[Cool Runnings]

I like Dewar’s Highlander Honey Flavored Whisky. 

[oldbike54]

And the only cure they came up with was for wrinkles.

 Nope , no cure , only internet , er , opinions .

  Dusty

[oldbike54]

We seem to have a seriousness pissing match at play here

I'm not real smart, but if we were all sitting around a fire, suronded by tents and cool motorcycles, we would have put this to bed by now.   And at this point a bottle of George Dickel would start to make its wAy around the circle, and all would be ok.

 Besides , we all know the correct answer is Jane Leaves 

  Dusty

[Aaron D.]

Doesn't everybody balance at stop signs with feet up, at least for the short stops?

[tazio]

Track Stand.
Yes, do it all the time.