What is more attractive to you about the Guzzi V-twin vs. the Harley V-twin

[redrider90]

So the guy who told me his 1600 CC Star was fast was correct ? Compared to what , a Honda Super Cub ? Sorry , HD's and MG's are not fast . Heck , even a SV 650 will leave one for dead .
A fast bike will almost take the rider's breath away , not something any HD is capable of .

  Dusty

Now I think sub 10 second 1/4 is fast.
From that article
Quickest Quarter-Mile Times
1] 2006 Suzuki GSX-R1000. . . . . . . 9.55 @ 143.02 mph 2] 2012 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-14R. . 9.62 @ 149.00
3] 2008SuzukiHayabusa .......9.77@145.97
4] 2012BMWS1000RR .........9.80@148.35
5] 2008 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-14 . . . 9.83 @ 143.44
Highest Rear-Wheel HP
1] 2012 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-14R. . . . . . . . 189.34 hp 2] 2012BMWS1000RR ............... 183.8
3] 2010BMWS1000RR ............... 178.81
4] 2009StarVMax ................... 173.3
5] 2012Ducati1199Panig aleS........ 171.8
Shortest 60–0 Stops
1] 2006TriumphSpeedTri ple ......... 104.8' 2] 2008 BMW Megamoto . . . . . . . . . . . . . 106.4' 3] 1999TriumphSpeedTri ple ......... 106.7' 4] 1997F6Valkyrie ................... 107.4' 5] 1997SuzukiMarauder8 00 ......... 107.6'

[jas67]

By far the biggest surprise for me is that BMW came in last in reliability. So much for Air Heads being smart.   

I'm sure that airheads don't weigh into these numbers.    The biggest number of problems with BMWs are with electronics, and other techno-wizardry on the newer models.

[oldbike54]

 Harv, those numbers do represent spectacular performance levels . One thing they leave out is how freakishly fast those bikes are all the way to their respective top speeds .

  Dusty

[LowRyter]

I'd say an 11 sec bike will definitely get your attention if not take your breath away. 

I prefer to clip a good apex but it's always good for you (and the bike) to hit the redline on every ride.  And it's quite a rush on a fast bike.

[mjptexas]

I'd say an 11 sec bike will definitely get your attention if not take your breath away. 

I prefer to clip a good apex but it's always good for you (and the bike) to hit the redline on every ride.  And it's quite a rush on a fast bike.

A sub 3 second 0-60 has a pretty high pucker factor too (usually because the front wheel isn't on the ground).

[George_S]

2015 Michigan State Police test of police motorcycles
Summary of acceleration and top speed-

BMW R1200RTP...
0-60 MPH- 3.99 sec.  0-100 MPH-  9.14 sec. Top Speed 141 MPH.  1/4 mi- 12.52sec at 116.08 MPH

Moto Guzzi Norge 1200...
0-60 MPH-  4.69 sec.  0-100 MPH- 12.52 sec.  Top Speed 127 MPH  1/4 mi- 13.29 sec at 107.07 MPH

Moto Guzzi California 1400...
0-60 MPH- 4.94 sec.  0-100 MPH- 15.01 sec.  Top Speed  117 MPH  1/4 mi- 13.84 sec at 99.33 MPH

H-D Electra Glide...(Road King had almost exactly the same numbers)
0-60 MPH- 5.62 sec.  0-100 MPH- 19.34 sec.  Top Speed 113 MPH    1/4 mi- 14.44 sec at 94.70 MPH

Can Am Spyder RTP...
0-60 MPH- 6.55 sec  0-100 MPH-  20.56 sec  Top Speed 114 MPH  1/4 mi- 15.11 sec at 96.00 MPH

[Kiwi Dave]

2015 Michigan State Police test of police motorcycles
Summary of acceleration and top speed-

BMW R1200RTP...
0-60 MPH- 3.99 sec.  0-100 MPH-  9.14 sec. Top Speed 141 MPH.  1/4 mi- 12.52sec at 116.08 MPH

Moto Guzzi Norge 1200...
0-60 MPH-  4.69 sec.  0-100 MPH- 12.52 sec.  Top Speed 127 MPH  1/4 mi- 13.29 sec at 107.07 MPH

Moto Guzzi California 1400...
0-60 MPH- 4.94 sec.  0-100 MPH- 15.01 sec.  Top Speed  117 MPH  1/4 mi- 13.84 sec at 99.33 MPH

H-D Electra Glide...(Road King had almost exactly the same numbers)
0-60 MPH- 5.62 sec.  0-100 MPH- 19.34 sec.  Top Speed 113 MPH    1/4 mi- 14.44 sec at 94.70 MPH

Can Am Spyder RTP...
0-60 MPH- 6.55 sec  0-100 MPH-  20.56 sec  Top Speed 114 MPH  1/4 mi- 15.11 sec at 96.00 MPH

The figures for the Norge seem believable.

But what was wrong with the Cali 1400?  My experience is that it will eat the Norge.

[mjptexas]

I’ve really enjoyed this thread.  Wild Guzzi at it’s best (and worst)

To this point my input has been primarily snarky comments about  some of the posts.  Let me try to make some more thoughtful comments.

First, the disclaimer.  The opinions below are mine, not yours.  I'm not asking you to agree, and I'm not likely to enter into any argument with you about my opinions. 

Just curious for those who have some experience with the Harley V twin's as well as the Guzzi. What is it about the Guzzi-V twin engine that captivates you more so then the Harley twin? Overlooking the cultural differences, is it the feel, torque, power delivery� What is it that causes you to choose the Guzzi over a Harley?

I took the OP’s original post to be focused at the engine.  I see this as an apples to oranges comparison.   Lower revving high torque American engine vs. a higher revving, higher horsepower European engine.  No different that what we’ve seen in U.S. vs. American cars for decades.  I like both.

Harleys are ubiquitous.
Moto~Guzzi is not.
I like that.

I like this too.  It’s the contrarian in me and the desire to be different.

Lucian , are we not a cult 

  Dusty

Dusty,  I fear Lucian may actually be right.

Design and character. From the early years of the Guzzi twin, the Guzzi was more oil tight than the Harley. The crankcase is a box with a removable bottom sump, not an external tank with hoses. Also not split vertically. The rocker boxes, carbs, and spark plugs are where you can get at them for easier maintenance than HD, or Brit bikes. The shaft drive meant less oil being flung about. The overall gearing and superior cooling meant that the bike could be ridden further, faster. The primary balance meant that the engine could achieve much longer service life than HD or brit bikes. It was about the best you could buy.

Forget the early years.  Modern Harleys don’t leak, and what maintenance?  Change the oil and the spark plugs.   The belt on my Harley doesn’t fling any oil on my pants.

Having owned a couple Sportsters, and then a Sport 1100 and V11 LeMans, I'd say the engine personalities are very different.

The Guzzis like to rev, in relation to the HDs.

And, my solid-mount Sportsters were bone shakers compared to my Guzzis.

The Guzzis are much more enjoyable, long-distance / high-speed.

Agree down to the bone shaking part.  Rubber mount Sportster set up properly is an all day ride.    I’m with you on the high-speed riding – not Harley’s forte.

Now I've not ridden a V11 Sport, but again compared to my Jackal, Breva 1100, or V7, the difference in revs is pretty small (like I said about 1k).

Difference between a modern Sporty and a V11 or a pushrod Griso is 2k.

Look, I get it. I like the feel of the Harley engine. The bikes are anachronisms, though.

Chuck's right.  Is there anyone else besides Harley (and Harley engine clone builders) that still build engines with pressed together cranks and siamesed connecting rods?

When I bought my Vintage, I did seriously consider a Road King. It was gorgeous, had the kit I wanted, and was really comfortable. However, the weight and lousy cornering clearance was just a deal breaker...

Yep.  I swallowed hard when I bought the Cali 1400 as I had never owned a bike that weighed more that 550 lbs.  At least the fat old Italian gal handles well.

The reasons I ride a Guzzi and not a Harley are these,
1, When I started riding, only outlaws, old men and cops rode Harleys. I didn't fall into any of those categories
2, I like performance, acceleration, top speed, braking and handling. Guzzi surpasses Harley on all counts, except a drag race for the first 100 feet.
3, I don't need to own a certain brand of bike to make friends. I have plenty of friends, some even ride Harleys.

Agree on all front.  Except now it's mostly us old men that ride Guzzis.

Oh lord. Here we go again.

I've tried to avoid posting on this thread. Non-H-D riders seem to be obsessed with dissing The Motor Company. Most of the time, the negative comments are based largely on ignorance and no experience riding the Big Twins, especially the ones built in the last decade or two.

I like both Guzzi and Harley.

Really, one can like more than one brand!  I promise.  It's okay.

Modern Harley Davidson bikes are extremely reliable and extremely low maintenance.  Not even Guzzi can match them in this regard. You don't have all the fiddling and major problems with H-D that you do with so many of the European bikes.  Just scroll through our own WG thread topics and take a look...

Yep

I also find it interesting that a lot of people who don't like Harleys gave them up before I was in grade school....

Well, for the most part Harleys really sucked from the late 60s until the EVO engine.  That's one reason Guzzi was able to sell so damned many Eldorados to the CHP.

Unfortunately we all remember our bad experiences with certain brands of motorized transportation. (My wife has standing orders to shoot me if I ever consider buying anything made by GM).

I just like them because they are quirky and different  ....

Yep

My Sportster is always on the bubble as the first bike to go to make room for the next toy.  But then I ride it, and every time I ride it, it makes me smile.  I really hate all the B.S. and trappings that is associated with Harleys, and many of the ignorant people that ride them.  However that doesn't keep me from enjoying my Sportster.

But after all the dust settles I find that Italian bikes speak to me.  I like the way they look, I like the way they ride, I like the way they handle, and I like how fast they can go. 

One other point - My Sportster is happy going down the rode at 65-75 miles an hour.  Much faster and it 'complains' a little.  At 65-75 every Italian bike I own is shouting 'go faster, go faster', which I usually do.  Since I don't have the self control (my name is Mike and I AM a speedaholic) maybe I should stay on a bike that reminds me to keep it under control.

[George_S]

The figures for the Norge seem believable.

But what was wrong with the Cali 1400?  My experience is that it will eat the Norge.

Must be weight and/or gearing. I think the 1400 did very well for a bike of its size and weight. It was clearly quicker than the Harleys.

Also, the Michigan State Police yearly tests are the premier testing venue, they are extremely thorough. There are multiple riders making multiple runs and all the runs are posted and the averages of the runs are too. The reports are fascinating. To describe each vehicle and each test, and present the results takes 128 pages. But that also includes about a dozen patrol cars tested too. Many other tests done also- braking, slalom, comfort, etc.

I was surprised to even see the Guzzis presented by Moto Guzzi for police service in the USA.
The MSP preliminary report for 2016 is also coming out and it doesn't show any Guzzis tested. Did Moto Guzzi withdraw them for police use consideration after one year? Or did MG not have their 2016s available at time of testing?  I guess we'll have to wait until the complete report is published.

[Rough Edge racing]

 Are Guzzi's faster than Harleys'    Of course they are ...  On the stripped 85 Cali 2 with a stock engine and open pipes "tuned"by me, my younger friend set a class record.....Of course 1000 cc push rod class should be dominated by older Sportys and BMW's, but none showed up 
  The fasted Guzzi on this site that has a certified timed top speed in the one mile standing start.....
  We are Rough Edges racing ....
     ECTA Ohio one mile     1000 CC Pushrod Records
9251    M/PG-1000/4    Rough Edges Racing    Lyjha    Wilton    116.6105    2013-09-29 09:35:12
417    M/PF-1000/4    Mark Rubin    Mark    Rubin    145.5369    2013-09-28 16:36:12
8949A    MPS/PG-1000/4    T. Reay / Old Fart Racing    Patrick    Malphus    134.3284    2015-09-27 13:37:40

[LowRyter]

RPMs

[Kev m]

2015 Michigan State Police test of police motorcycles
Summary of acceleration and top speed-

BMW R1200RTP...
0-60 MPH- 3.99 sec.  0-100 MPH-  9.14 sec. Top Speed 141 MPH.  1/4 mi- 12.52sec at 116.08 MPH

Moto Guzzi Norge 1200...
0-60 MPH-  4.69 sec.  0-100 MPH- 12.52 sec.  Top Speed 127 MPH  1/4 mi- 13.29 sec at 107.07 MPH

Moto Guzzi California 1400...
0-60 MPH- 4.94 sec.  0-100 MPH- 15.01 sec.  Top Speed  117 MPH  1/4 mi- 13.84 sec at 99.33 MPH

H-D Electra Glide...(Road King had almost exactly the same numbers)
0-60 MPH- 5.62 sec.  0-100 MPH- 19.34 sec.  Top Speed 113 MPH    1/4 mi- 14.44 sec at 94.70 MPH

Can Am Spyder RTP...
0-60 MPH- 6.55 sec  0-100 MPH-  20.56 sec  Top Speed 114 MPH  1/4 mi- 15.11 sec at 96.00 MPH

I like this test data, this and the MCN performance index. They mean more to me for bench comparisons than say the MCN list of top 10 fastest bikes (literally there's not a single one on there in which I have the slightest interest, even though I've ridden a couple of them).

That said there's nothing surprising or compelling about this data.

Seriously a 1200cc or 1400cc with 4valves/cylinder makes more power and is a little quicker than a 1700 or 1800cc with 2 valves per cylinder that weighs more (and in the case of the 1200cc MUCH more).

Where's the surprise ending?

The only surprise I see, and maybe it's because of the testing methods, is that they all sound close to a second slower than similar models are rated at MCN. But they remain in the right positions relative to each other.

Now, and here's the big part of this, that data doesn't sway me into wanting an R1200 or Norge over an RK or Cali, nor does it make my mind up between the RK and Cali (both of which I've ridden).

[LowRyter]

I don't think I have seen any thread that has had more printed words and communicated so little.









>insert your deadhorse emoticon here<

[HDGoose]

Design and character. From the early years of the Guzzi twin, the Guzzi was more oil tight than the Harley. The crankcase is a box with a removable bottom sump, not an external tank with hoses. Also not split vertically. The rocker boxes, carbs, and spark plugs are where you can get at them for easier maintenance than HD, or Brit bikes. The shaft drive meant less oil being flung about. The overall gearing and superior cooling meant that the bike could be ridden further, faster. The primary balance meant that the engine could achieve much longer service life than HD or brit bikes. It was about the best you could buy.

Was. Back in the 70s and 80s. Today, I know of several long distance HD riders with 100K on their machines. Today's Guzzi's require a knowledgeable dealership, or an individual investment in tools and software of about $1000.

Most current motorcycles will easily obtain 100k with just routine maintenance. In the 1970's, Guzzi's and their quirks made sense. Today, harder to justify.

[Kev m]

I don't think I have seen any thread that has had more printed words and communicated so little.

Well, it IS just about preference.

How many ways can someone say they like chocolate better than vanilla, or Andouille better than Chorizo? 

[RinkRat II]

I don't think I have seen any thread that has had more printed words and communicated so little

 :1: And it's only taken 9 pages to get here. Winter??


      Paul

[HDGoose]

So if you are going to compare apples to apples then quote the Road King after you  "spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner".  If HD is so good at taking care of their customers then it's fairly obvious  setting up their bikes to purposefully require upgrades to increase power is a complete contradiction of that notion.  And the amazing thing is 75% of HD owners are loyal to a company that detunes their bike at the factory so you drop and extra $1k or more to get it running like it should have right out of the crate. They are laughing all the way to the bank on that one.

Now that's funny! Guzzi did well with hydro and flat tappets didn't they. And I see many Guzzi's with low mileage, 40k or less on a 10 year old bike. And most HD riders I personally just gotta have some new farkle, and buy it. I remember when most motorcycle riders were mechanics, or could and would maintain their own machines. But since cars rarely need much before 70k, and most motorcycles, there are fewer people doing mechanics. But also because the computers that are almost required these days, are expensive.

[LowRyter]

I don't think I have seen any thread that has had more printed words and communicated so little

 :1: And it's only taken 9 pages to get here. Winter??


      Paul

RPMs

[Tom]

There are more mopeds ridden worldwide that are faster than any motorcycle in traffic and on a daily basis.  So there........:-0

[HDGoose]

"Fast ?" 

  Dusty

Same to be said about Guzzi...

[oldbike54]

Same to be said about Guzzi...

 I already said that 

 Dusty

[HDGoose]

All this talk about slow Harleys....other than the 883 Sporty and perhaps the most optioned BT baggers, I believe all the rest made recently turn low to mid 13's in the 1/4 mile, some are faster of course.
 What does this mean to me? One of my old 650 Brit bikes is a bit slower and all the performance, with in reason, can be used on back roads. The 85 Cali 2 cafe bike might turn a low 13  1/4 mile and not all the performance can be used on secondary roads. My 97 Buell is faster, high to mid 12's and just some of the performance can be used. Riding my friend's newer 1050 Speed triple, high 10's in the 1/4 mile , very little performance can be use on the roads here. It's like a guy bragging about his 650 HP Vette...you can only use the power for a few seconds.
  And we have to remember not all riders need to corner like a GP bike...
 Maybe for a rider out west in Utah there's more opportunity to use the performance....
 I look at Harley BT riders like guys driving around in full sized 4x4 Diesel PU trucks that never drive in deep snow or mud or carry weight...Why do they need such a vehicle? Because they like it.....

HEY!! LOL.

Out of the 54k I have on my 2013 RAM 2500 diesel, I have only pulled trailers for 2000 miles. But I get better fuel mileage than my 1998 Chevy 1500 did in its best days. And later this year we will be buying the camper.

[HDGoose]

Somethings not right about some of these numbers. 
- I've got a XL1200C.  The table says it will top out at 124 mph - MAYBE if you run it off a 200 ft cliff, but it sure as hell won't do it on a straight road. Best I've seen is 110 mph, downhill with the wind at my back.
- I'm pretty sure my Cali 1400 will take the XL1200c in a 1/4 mile too.  Guess I'll need to check that out.

Unless you are under 150 pounds, you are over weight for being a tester or racer.

[HDGoose]

When the majority of US riders loose 50 pounds, their bike will be much faster.

And my LeMansIV was a blast to ride in a fast manner. But a rebuilt suspension on my 89 ElectraGlide made it a hoot to ride also.

At 300 pounds, and even back when I weighed 220, I always rebuilt/upgraded suspension and brakes on every bike I owned.

If I buy a new Guzzi this year, I will also spend the mney on the computer software so I can maintain it because of scarcity of good Guzzi dealers.

[bpreynolds]

Wait a minute.  Top speed on a Cali 1400 is only 117mph?     
Didn't expect Panigale numbers, still surprising though it doesn't mean much to me in general.  Kinda like this thread.   

[Kev m]

Wait a minute.  Top speed on a Cali 1400 is only 117mph?     
Didn't expect Panigale numbers, still surprising though it doesn't mean much to me in general.  Kinda like this thread.   

It essentially means nothing to me.

There's no place for me to legally ride 100+ mph on a road in this state or any surrounding states.

And I really have no need to.

I'm way more interested in how the bike feels in the 40-80 mph range.

[bpreynolds]

It essentially means nothing to me.

There's no place for me to legally ride 100+ mph on a road in this state or any surrounding states.

And I really have no need to.

I'm way more interested in how the bike feels in the 40-80 mph range.

I would say how a bike feels in the 40-80mph range is "one" interest for me as per my own personal riding but I'm not sure if I would say it's my specificaly most important one.  But I wouldn't expect my preferences to be the same for most others.  My daily 30 plus mile commute on the bike involves mostly highway work and there it does interest me more how a bike performs in the 70-100mph range. 

As per top speeds, as stated, doesn't mean much to me either, but it is a bit surprising about the 1400 given all my previous Calis would do 117 maybe not easily but without great drama.  Shoot, I think I've probably caught a tail wind and done 110 on the V7.  Again, I almost never spend any kind of time at those speeds on those bikes but the 1400 topping out at 117 is surprising given that I expected it to be in the 125-130 range.  But again good sirs I say, "Not that there's anything wrong with that."   

[Kev m]

I would say how a bike feels in the 40-80mph range is "one" interest for me as per my own personal riding but I'm not sure if I would say it's my specificaly most important one.  But I wouldn't expect my preferences to be the same for most others.  My daily 30 plus mile commute on the bike involves mostly highway work and there it does interest me more how a bike performs in the 70-100mph range. 

Yeah, no ... just no.

I really have no NEED to be doing 90 mph even in a pass around here, never mind 100 mph, it just an un-necessary risk (not to say I haven't).

I've had plenty of bikes that CAN run a 90 mph all day, but it is extremely stressful between worrying about traffic, cops, and unexpected obstacles (poor pavement, debris, animals) that I really have no interest.

As per top speeds, as stated, doesn't mean much to me either, but it is a bit surprising about the 1400 given all my previous Calis would do 117 maybe not easily but without great drama.  Shoot, I think I've probably caught a tail wind and done 110 on the V7.

I dunno man. Older Cali's had notoriously inaccurate speedos. I'm not even sure I ever bothered trying to see it read the ton on the Jackal, maybe once.

And though I will confess to uhhh, pushing the V7 once to see what I thought she could do (and GPS verifying it), I'm not entirely certain mine was going to ever make it to 110 (though it was much newer than and a repeat test might be interesting).

Again, I almost never spend any kind of time at those speeds on those bikes but the 1400 topping out at 117 is surprising given that I expected it to be in the 125-130 range.  But again good sirs I say, "Not that there's anything wrong with that."   

Well, FWIW, it is a LOT MORE MASS and surface area than the V7 or even either an old Cali.

[bpreynolds]

Yeah, no ... just no.

I really have no NEED to be doing 90 mph even in a pass around here, never mind 100 mph, it just an un-necessary risk (not to say I haven't).

I've had plenty of bikes that CAN run a 90 mph all day, but it is extremely stressful between worrying about traffic, cops, and unexpected obstacles (poor pavement, debris, animals) that I really have no interest.

Well, FWIW, it is a LOT MORE MASS and surface area than the V7 or even either an old Cali.

But Kev.  Why do any of us go faster than we should, eh?  I think you've discussed at length on the board here about riding in quite a spirited and capable manner on curvy roads - here referring specifically to your mention of being able to ride the V7 as quickly as your wife's Monster.  Heck, I've even read on here testimonies of admiration from folks who tried to follow you, they admiring your riding skills/ability to ride slow bikes quite fast on backroads and that sorta jazz.  And surely you were betraying some measure of safety and speed limits then?  Are you saying that riding 90 on the highway in a straight line is more dangerous than scraping a peg, daring blind corners, gravel, etc.?

[Kev m]

But Kev.  Why do any of us go faster than we should, eh?  I think you've discussed at length on the board here about riding in quite a spirited and capable manner on curvy roads - here referring specifically to your mention of being able to ride the V7 as quickly as your wife's Monster.  Heck, I've even read on here testimonies of admiration from folks who tried to follow you, they admiring your riding skills/ability to ride slow bikes quite fast on backroads and that sorta jazz.  And surely you were betraying some measure of safety and speed limits then?  Are you saying that riding 90 on the highway in a straight line is more dangerous than scraping a peg, daring blind corners, gravel, etc.?

It's just my personal risk vs. reward evaluation.

To be clear, I'm not making a judgment call for anyone other than myself or trying to suggest that you should agree with me.

And I'm NOT saying people need to take no risks at all in their lives. We pick and chose what's worth it to us - just riding motorcycles in general means we're picking. Skiing/Snowboarding, Boating/Diving, hell, Karate, etc. all have some risks involved.

Just going fast in a straight line requires no skill and doesn't really provide me any thrill. I may cite 1/4 times as a metric of performance capability, but though I live only what 10 miles or so from a drag strip now (Atco), I don't see myself ever attending to watch or run something. It's short attention span theatre to me (even if I realize there's a lot of skill to a launch in that case).

To directly answer your question, I dunno what is more "dangerous" riding curves at speeds above the speed limit or riding highways for extended periods above the speed limits? The hazards are different, but so are the speeds. I mean even if I top out a 70 on a sweeping curve is that as dangerous as what might occur from an incident at 100+ on a straight away?

But at least the curve was fun.

I should probably add that I limit my speed on blind corners and I try to make sure I know if there is (or might be gravel). I go deep and look through them, and if I can see or tell to my satisfaction then I just slow down.

And coming full circle back to Harleys, I can have a lot of fun in a curve on a Harley at 10-20 mph slower than the same curve on say a Ducati. So does that make the Harley "safer"??? Potentially.

This also goes back to my recent 4-wheel purchase - a Jeep rather than a Focus RS/WRX. It's for the same reasons - not looking to go fast in a straight line and the Jeep is fun even AT the speed limit (go figure).

So yeah, I just have no NEED to do 90+ mph on the highway for any length of time (and every bike I own CAN do it for a short time if I wanted to).