and now for something completely different...

[boatdetective]

For you land lubbers- check out what technology is doing with sailing and hydrofoil design. These things can go over 40 knots- (close to 50mph!). Also note that with the hulls completely clear of the water, there is no motion/slamming.   Yowzaa!

https://www.facebook.com/OracleRacingTeam/videos/972660122771034/?fref=nf

[jbell]

Wowser, that's impressive.   I'm not a sailing person but I assume you can't travel faster than the wind speed?

I remember back in my Navy days when doing high speed runs on a DLG it would about shake your fillings out and nobody allowed on deck that didn't have to be there.

[oldbike54]

 Wholey Schmoley , the crew needs parachutes 

  Dusty

[PJPR01]

Wholey Schmoley , the crew needs parachutes 

  Dusty

  INdeed...something similar is needed, a few of them went overboard last year, one fatality if I recall...amazingly exciting to watch these boats "lift" out of the water and begin flying.  They had a wonderful movie down there at the Pier in SF and great exhibits on how these boats are built, the equipment the sailors use and all of the gear needed.  Quite amazing!

[boatdetective]

Wowser, that's impressive.   I'm not a sailing person but I assume you can't travel faster than the wind speed?

Actually, once you get going over a certain speed, the boat actually makes its own wind. So yes, they can go faster than the wind!  Take a close look at the mast and mainsail. The spar is a huge, molded leading edge of of foam cored carbon. The sail behind it is two articulating airfoils with a thin skin of mylar.

The engimaneering to get them up out of the water and to keep them there through a tack is pretty heady stuff. the video shows how the cavitation is fierce enough to blast the blades clean.  The series from the last cup race in San Francisco was really great stuff. the heats were short and there was plenty of action.  The event succeeded in drawing non sailors into the action. I figure that any self respecting gearhead here would have a fun time watching. 

[Sasquatch Jim]

 Boat have been going faster than the speed of the wind for several hundred years at least.
 Ever since schooners and sloops were invented.
 The were even some polynesian outrigger canoes and double canoes that were capable of faster than wind speeds.
 Modern airfoils are simply much more efficient and do it better.  Then with the invention hydrofoils in the water,
 speeds went to outrageous capabilities.
  I would suspect that the vessel pictured could easily make 40 knots of hull speed from 20 knots of wind.

[pehayes]

Wowser, that's impressive.   I'm not a sailing person but I assume you can't travel faster than the wind speed?

A common misconception.  It is true when you sail straight, direct downwind.  You can't 'make' speed.  However, veer off at an angle (far reach) and you can easily exceed the wind.  Its just vectors and math.  No competitive sailor would sail on a direct downwind course.  Wouldn't be competitive for long.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Arizona Wayne]

Wowser, that's impressive.   I'm not a sailing person but I assume you can't travel faster than the wind speed?

I remember back in my Navy days when doing high speed runs on a DLG it would about shake your fillings out and nobody allowed on deck that didn't have to be there.

I was on a DD and the vibration felt like it came from the propeller  shafts on the fantail where we slept below deck.   DD-784  Think our top speed was 27 knots.  The newer DLGs made our Korean war DDGs look positively inferior in the sleeping quarters area. 

[boatdetective]

Boat have been going faster than the speed of the wind for several hundred years at least.
 Ever since schooners and sloops were invented.
 The were even some polynesian outrigger canoes and double canoes that were capable of faster than wind speeds.
 Modern airfoils are simply much more efficient and do it better.  Then with the invention hydrofoils in the water,
 speeds went to outrageous capabilities.
  I would suspect that the vessel pictured could easily make 40 knots of hull speed from 20 knots of wind.

Ummm- I'd beg to differ there. Sure, reaching gets you to exceed the theoretical hull speed of a boat (~1.34 x sq. root of the waterline length). However, that doesn't mean you'll "make" enough speed to exceed the true wind speed. "Apparent wind" that you generate will always be faster than true wind- but that has nothing to do with your velocity made good. No schooners or sloops can break that barrier. There's just too much boat in the water.  I tend to doubt that traditional Polynesian craft had the sails necessary to get there. From my recollection, it wasn't until modern multihulls with Dacron sails (like the Tornado class) that you could see speeds in excess of wind strength.

[not-fishing]

I wonder if it pitch-poles.....

[boatdetective]

I wonder if it pitch-poles.....

Yeah they do. Here's one of the cats from the last series up ending. It doesn't take much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KNql99zT6s

[Sasquatch Jim]

  I'm sorry boat detective, I only have a lifetime of being at sea to draw from.  The Brit round ships of the 18th century
 generally cruised at about 6 knots.  The polynesians they met in the Pacific sailed rings around them just to show off.
 They were estimated at as much s 18 knots with a large crab claw sail.  Schooners were mostly commercial fishing vessels in a very competitive market, as in who gets home with the fish first gets the best price.  They were schooner rigged to allow a variety of capabilities in different weather conditions.  Sloops were 19th century and faster and are the predominant rig on modern recreation vessels.  The were also very fast racing rigs up into the 20th century.  Many were, when on a reach, able to run faster than the true wind speed. 

 Chief Bos'ns mate heavy surf qualified, earned my oars at Cape Disappointment. USCG retired,  former commercial fisherman, USCG licensed captain,and sailboat live aboard bum, now having swallowed the anchor due to health difficulties.

 BTW some displacement hull sail boats are designed so that when heeled over the wetted area is a different shape and can actually allow planing on a fast reach.  We don't even need to get into catamarans and trimarans, which have been around
 since white men first tried to copy the polynesians and improve upon them.

[krglorioso]

I guess Egyptian cotton sails are out, eh?

Ralph

[MGPilot]

Have just been looking at a 1956 Kettenburg K38. Any thoughts about the design?

[H-E-ROSS]

I guess Egyptian cotton sails are out, eh?

Ralph

Classics never go out of fashion!

[oldbike54]

I guess Egyptian cotton sails are out, eh?

Ralph

 Did the Egyptians sail ?  Interesting stuff guys . One question , was the "boat" designed in New Zealand ? They seem to be the best sailors .

  Dusty

[boatdetective]

  I'm sorry boat detective, I only have a lifetime of being at sea to draw from.  The Brit round ships of the 18th century
 generally cruised at about 6 knots.  The polynesians they met in the Pacific sailed rings around them just to show off.
 They were estimated at as much s 18 knots with a large crab claw sail.  Schooners were mostly commercial fishing vessels in a very competitive market, as in who gets home with the fish first gets the best price.  They were schooner rigged to allow a variety of capabilities in different weather conditions.  Sloops were 19th century and faster and are the predominant rig on modern recreation vessels.  The were also very fast racing rigs up into the 20th century.  Many were, when on a reach, able to run faster than the true wind speed. 

 Chief Bos'ns mate heavy surf qualified, earned my oars at Cape Disappointment. USCG retired,  former commercial fisherman, USCG licensed captain,and sailboat live aboard bum, now having swallowed the anchor due to health difficulties.

 BTW some displacement hull sail boats are designed so that when heeled over the wetted area is a different shape and can actually allow planing on a fast reach.  We don't even need to get into catamarans and trimarans, which have been around
 since white men first tried to copy the polynesians and improve upon them.

Jim-  this is a topic that can be settled purely by design and numbers. Stories and anecdote are never a good basis for any debate.

The idea that any primitive proa with sails made from coconut palms ever went 18 knots is pure fantasy (unless, of course, it was blowing much, much stronger than 18). As a boat accelerates, it creates more and more apparent wind. The sail needs to be sheeted in tighter to the point that the boat looks like it is close hauled. There is no physical way those sails could have been snotted in tight enough nor would they have anything approaching an airfoil shape. The same seamen who reported that the boats were travelling triple their speed (ergo 18 knots) are the same observers who reported sea serpents and mermaids- so I'm not going to give their reports much weight.

The schooner was first developed for the Gloucester fishing fleet. They were built in Essex. I live a half hour away. They were developed at the end of the 19th century and their heyday was the 1890s-1920s.  They sailed from here on Cape Ann out to the Grand banks off Nova Scotia. Compared to square rigs, they were quite fast and of course could point.

Gaff sloops first appeared at the end of the 19th century, but it wasn't until the 1930s that the modern "Marconi" rigs with "Bermudan" mains started to come into vogue.

Displacement sailboats with keels physically cannot plane, much less sail faster than the wind- they are limited by skin friction/drag. There's a good discussion here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_faster_than_the_wind

Designers at the turn of the 19th century certainly knew these limitations. Most notably, N.G Herreshoff designed Amaryllis after seeing South Seas multihulls.

If we really have to get into qualifications- I've been sailing since I was eight, have grown up in one of the original yachting capitals, have worked in the recreational boating biz for the past 35 years, was a rigger for Ted Hood, marine surveyor for the last 25 years, and a regular speaker at the Intl. Boatbuilder's Expo for the past 20 years.     

[boatdetective]

I guess Egyptian cotton sails are out, eh?

Ralph

Egyptian cotton was the best stuff you could get until the 1960s. The credit for the invention and production of modern Dacron sailcloth is generally given to designer/sailmaker Ted Hood. Back in the 60's until the mid 80's, Hood Sails were The Sh*t.  Tremendous quality of material and excellent craftsmanship.

Racing sail technology has gone from Dacron to fiber reinforcements sandwiched in mylar. I'm not keen on the laminated sails.  There is a German company - Dimension Polyant- who make a Dacron weave that has tremendous thread count- super dense weave. It looks like ripstop material- and the thicker strands are made from Spectra. You could pick up a truck with this stuff it's so strong.

[John Ulrich]

Wow,  As a Hobie Cat sailor 35 yrs ago......fricken unreal!!!!!   

[boatdetective]

Have just been looking at a 1956 Kettenburg K38. Any thoughts about the design?

RUN AWAY!!!  No joke- Kettenbergs were built in the San Diego area and were very, very lightly built. You will find every single frame broken on the boat. I guarantee it. 

[boatdetective]

 Did the Egyptians sail ?  Interesting stuff guys . One question , was the "boat" designed in New Zealand ? They seem to be the best sailors .

  Dusty
[/quote]

Sure they did. The traditional Arab sailboat is called a Dhow.

Not surprisingly, all sailing craft were work boats up well into the 19th century. Some consider that the first pleasure "yacht" in America was Crowninshield's "Cleopatra's Barge" (1830s?). The first America's Cup race was in 1851.

The word "yacht" is Dutch in origin. Due to their rich trading history and unusually shallow water, the Dutch have some lovely and unique indigenous craft. Most are voluptuous double enders with large leeboards. The interiors tend to be quite elaborate. 

[oldbike54]

 Damn that is a beautiful boat Jonathon  So , did the Kiwis design that fast boat in the first post? Where is John r , he loves this stuff .

  Dusty

[boatdetective]

Damn that is a beautiful boat Jonathon  So , did the Kiwis design that fast boat in the first post? Where is John r , he loves this stuff .

  Dusty

The first boat is the US team Oracle. The design work at this level involves a lot of people. I'm sure there's a Kiwi in there somewhere. I'm pretty certain though that the Morelli and Melvin firm from San Diego directs the design team.  Where the Kiwis totally dominate, however, is the skippers and crew.

[Sasquatch Jim]

  This article speaks mostly about multihulls, but some monohulls can exceed wind speed under the right conditions
 and angles. 

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_faster_than_the_wind

 

[jbell]

Aha! so it's like an airfoil, creating a low pressure on the leading side and pulling the boat ahead.  Thanks Jim. 

[Penderic]

Push button sailing?

Weird!

[Kiwi_Roy]

The wing foil for Oricle was built in NZ. cured in the Air New Zealand oven.
Air NZ wouldn't let the Kiwi team use their oven because they are sponsored by a rival airline.
My Wife and I took in some of the sailing in San Fran, it was spectacular to see the boats streak past the wharf.

If you want to read a good book on sailing ships pick up a copy of "The Last Grain Race" by Eric Newby I think.
It describes sailing from Australia to London just before ww2.

Penderic, I used to sail an old Kitty Cat on Whangerei harbor, there was a boat there fitted with a helicopter rotor driving a prop.

[johnr]

I wonder if it pitch-poles.....

It certainly can. When things do go wrong on such a boat they go wrong very quickly.

[johnr]

Ralph

 Did the Egyptians sail ?  Interesting stuff guys . One question , was the "boat" designed in New Zealand ? They seem to be the best sailors .

  Dusty

Yes, the Egyptians sailed. Far and wide I believe.

Dusty, both team Americas boat (at least in part) and Team New Zealands boat were designed and built in New Zealand for the last America's Cup. Foiling was invented and developed there. 

Personally I would like to see a return to national teams. Team NZ was one and some of the others too, but team USA (Oracle)  was a truly international team.  Boat from NewZealand, team managed by a renowned sailor from NZ (Russell Coutts), skippered by an Ozzie, other team members from  all over the world. There was only one American in the crew and if you go through the personnel list for that team the next American you find is among the service people supplying food etc. Hardly a "Team America".

I was disappointed by the last Americas cup event. True the boat speeds were very spectacular and it was great from the spectators point of view but;
1/ A there and back drag race is not a proper sailing race which should be triangular. In
     that way the tactics which are so much a part of sailing racing can be brought into
     play, rather than just boat speed.
2/ Sailing match racing is done with boats that are all the same, so that it is the sailor who
    wins the race, not the boat. In that respect allowing the Oracle team to change the
    design of their foils (so that their angle could be adjusted for and aft) gave them an
    unfair advantage and was outside both the spirit of the competition and the rules.
    How they got away with that I don't know. (but team NZ did not win a single race
    once that was done)
3/ The idea of arranging such a big event around the convenience of TV stations
    absolutely appalls me. Far better to let the televisors organise themselves around
    the event instead. It was this that led to obscenely short maximum times for the
    races and led to Team NZ losing both a race and the cup despite sailing well at
   10 knots. At that speed, a speed that for many cruising sailors would be blindingly
   fast, there should have been plenty of time to finish the race.
4/ Despite their being very fast boats and amazing to watch, the cost of developing
   a competitive boat for these events has discouraged many from entering and will
    continue to do so. Personally,  I would like to see a return to the beautiful 12 metre
    boats for this event.

In some respect it is a pity NZ did not win last time as had we done so there were plans afoot for rule changes that would have made for far greater appeal to more entrants and a fairer event all round.

As to the sailing faster than the wind question. In THEORY, any sailing vessel can do it on a reach (sailing with the wind coming from the side, or a bit behind that) in certain conditions.
Other factors come into play though, Water line length limits ultimate speed as do such things as hull shape and design and such things as the amount of wetted surface (friction through the water).  For example is the vessel a fat old cargo carrier of a racing yacht?

It comes down to a thing called apparent wind. You have wind coming from the side of the boat (which is the angle that provides the fastest boat speed) Say that wind is 12 knots. Since the boat is moving through the water at, lets  say 7 kts, it is moving through the air too and there for creates a head wind of 7kts. The APPARENT wind is the wind as experienced on the boat which is a combination of the two (the 12 kt wind and the 7kt air speed) which, when strength and direction are taken into account adds up to say a 16 kt wind coming from forward of the beam.  Whether this stronger apparent wind is sufficient to propel the boat faster than the 12kt wind speed depends on the other factors I mentioned. 

I hope that clarifies thing a bit.

Some pics of the 12 meter  boats (Boats which I am unreasonably and inordinately enamoured  of). These boats despite being displacement boats could definitely sail faster than the wind under the right conditions.









 

[MGPilot]

Years ago there was a picture of a guy water skiing behind a racing catamaran (may have been an Olympic team messing about for the cameras). The second picture showed the leeward hull digging into the water, flipping the boat and the skipper in mid air, getting catapulted over the main.

Made traditional sloops seem just fine.