the Titanic

[thebaileylee]

so for some reason i got interested in the passenger list of the titanic.  theres a lot of internet info on it.  (none of my relatives were aboard).  but its interesting that when you search.. it really was women and children first.  a lot of husbands perished.  a different time.  an honorable time.  but its curious which men did survive.  and im picking on mr spedden.  apparently a middle aged banker.  who liked to sail who was travelling with his wife a small child a manservant and a maid.  and he was lucky enough to get on a lifeboat.  how rich do you have to be to travel with a manservant??

[johnr]

Personally I don't believe it was the Titanic that sank. I think it was the Olympic with it's name changed. Insurance fraud.  The evidence is quite compelling at this stage.

A 1st class cabin on a trip across the Atlantic cost the equivalent of a medium size house in that day. It wasn't cheap.

[Dogwalker]

I have never heard that theory, interesting.

But false.
Olympic shipyard's number is 400, Titanic is 401.
Virtually every panel, every relevant piece of the engines, every tool on board of the two ships were marked with their contruction numbers. To "switch" them would have meant to simply dismantle the two ships and assemble them again.
the Olympic was dismantled in 1934, no piece marked "401" had been found. Every preserved part shows the "400" number on it.
Every recovered part of the Titanic where the number is still readable shows the "401" number.

[canuguzzi]

I have never heard that theory, interesting.
So if true what happened to the Titanic? Its like the MH270 hijack theory's, kinda hard to hide something that big.
Pieces of that 777 are starting to wash up on shores down in south Indian ocean.

mike

As the Olympic continued in service until scrapped there would either have to be four not three sister ships built or Titanic became Olympic. Would there be a benefit? There is no doubt a ship named Olympic continued in service until being retired and scrapped so how does the switching theory work and benefit the company? One of the ships still hit an iceberg and sank.

[cloudbase]

Word is that Linda Lovelace's grandmother went down on the Titanic.

[ibis1]

Word is that Linda Lovelace's grandmother went down on the Titanic.

Now that's a mouthful!

[kirkemon]

I was amazed when I found our that the Queen Mary was so much larger than the Titanic. Yea, it was built 20 years later but made over 1,000 Transatlantic crossings.
 http://www.queenmary.com/history/comparison-fun-facts/titanic-vs-queen-mary/

[JeffOlson]

Speaking of the Queen Mary:

[Dukedesmo]

how rich do you have to be to travel with a manservant??

Probably not rich enough to save his manservant?...

[wymple]

The Titanic remains to this day the only liner ever sank by an iceberg.

[lucydad]

The Titanic went down the same year my dad was born:  1912.  Years ago while visiting the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, UK I saw one of the very first Titanic recovery exhibits. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Maritime_Museum

What was an interesting historical event became, for me, an experience of the human tragedy of a major liner going down.  The Titanic tragedy was very much a "perfect cluster-+uck" of cascading events, mistakes, poor judgement, timing and just plain bad luck.  The upside: later changes in passenger vessel design making adequate life boats mandatory.  Those changes saved many lives later in WW II. 

I can think of few worse ways to die than a ship sinking and drowning. 

[Guzzistajohn]

Speaking of the Queen Mary:

My old man took the Queen Mary home from Europe when she was a hospital ship.

[Guzzistajohn]

I had dinner and a good bottle of wine on the old gal a while back...even got lucky and spent the nite!

:-)

Tell us about it, slowly.

[HardAspie]

But false.
Olympic shipyard's number is 400, Titanic is 401.
Virtually every panel, every relevant piece of the engines, every tool on board of the two ships were marked with their contruction numbers. To "switch" them would have meant to simply dismantle the two ships and assemble them again.
the Olympic was dismantled in 1934, no piece marked "401" had been found. Every preserved part shows the "400" number on it.
Every recovered part of the Titanic where the number is still readable shows the "401" number.

There were also a few external differences visible on underwater photos taken of Titanic. The bridge was different as was a porthole or two on the hull. These could have been altered, but it is doubtful. Looks like Titanic sank.

[boatdetective]

my hero:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlR6CdJtRWM

[cj750]

As the Olympic continued in service until scrapped there would either have to be four not three sister ships built or Titanic became Olympic. Would there be a benefit? There is no doubt a ship named Olympic continued in service until being retired and scrapped so how does the switching theory work and benefit the company? One of the ships still hit an iceberg and sank.

In 1911, Olympic sustained severe below-the-waterline damage in a collision with a Royal Navy ship. The official inquiry found the Olympic at fault, so insurance wouldn't pay. The theory was that, rather than pay for the very expensive repairs out of their own pockets,  the owners had the shipyard do a quickie patch job, put fresh carpet over the worn linoleum floors, add some fresh paint, minor cosmetic alterations, and send the damaged Olympic out as the new Titanic. By "accidentally" sinking the "Titanic" they'd get the insurance money to replace it with a brand new ship, plus have a new, undamaged "Olympic" without having to pay for repairs. There was actually quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that backed up this theory, but its been pretty well disproven by the discovery and examination of the actual Titanic. Not only are the recovered part numbers correct for the Titanic, but there is no evidence of hull damage consistent with that known to have been suffered by the Olympic.

[Sasquatch Jim]

 I don't believe Linda Lovelaces grandmother went down on the Titanic, although she may have gone down on
 I mean with the crew.

[Huzo]

What is it about your hero that makes him worthy of your adulation Boatie ? I watched his brave attempt at standup.

[johnr]

... there is no evidence of hull damage consistent with that known to have been suffered by the Olympic.

Well that's not entirely true.

Anyway here is a well presented docco on the theory which I find quite compelling, though not perhaps proven beyond all doubt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRvMPc1KuJQ

This one too might be of interest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdxJp2fVXJ8

Another thing to consider is that the Olympic had sustained major damage in it's collisions and, to quote, "Would never pass a Board of Trade inspection again" That meant that she was done. It would be illegal for her to ever carry passengers again. 

She would have to have been scrapped, and we know that this in fact did not happen and that she served for a good number of years there after.

This means she must have been repaired. That would involve the extremely expensive and time consuming process of cutting off her rear half and rebuilding it to spec. There is to my knowledge no record or photo of this work having been done.

The jury is still out, but my vote at the moment is "Guilty as charged"

[Dogwalker]

Another thing to consider is that the Olympic had sustained major damage in it's collisions and, to quote, "Would never pass a Board of Trade inspection again" That meant that she was done. It would be illegal for her to ever carry passengers again.

Allegedly.
Historically, the mixed White Star Line / Royal Navvy Commission that judged the damages, estimated them worth of 125.000 Pounds for repair.
They were repaired in 12 days of work, at the same shipyard were the Titanic was been completed.


The Titatic was underinsured (5 millions pound, when the ship costed 7.5 millions), so, its loss resulted in a net loss of 2.5 millions for the White Star Line.
2.5 millions Pound would be enough to repair any damage to a ship still able to float (and, in the end, they would have had three Olympic Class ship instead of two, and avoided a lot of bad press)

As said, there were not only slight differences between the Titanic and the Olympic (The Titanic was muche more similar to the sister ship Britannic). Apart from the construction number (that's plenty of evidence that the ship that sunk was the Titanic, since to switch all the numbered part would have meant to completely rebuild the two ships), the most obvious difference was in the upper decks.

This was not only aesthetical, but corresponded to a different dimensioning of the services of the first class. To switch the two upper decks would have required weeks of work of thousands of workers.

[fossil]

Olympic was for three months in a dock for the hull-repair. After the Titanic - desaster she got a double skin and a reinforced inner structure. This was done by Harland and Wolff, the shipyard that built all three ships of the series. All repairs and works are well documented, the shipyard still exists.

A follow-up of the Titanic desaster is the SOLAS - Convention, today the highest Set of Rules for the maritime world. 

[molly]

  how rich do you have to be to travel with a manservant??

I assumed everyone had a manservant old bean.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYf5YPNnfRY

[johnr]

Allegedly.
Historically, the mixed White Star Line / Royal Navvy Commission that judged the damages, estimated them worth of 125.000 Pounds for repair.
They were repaired in 12 days of work, at the same shipyard were the Titanic was been completed.


The Titatic was underinsured (5 millions pound, when the ship costed 7.5 millions), so, its loss resulted in a net loss of 2.5 millions for the White Star Line.
2.5 millions Pound would be enough to repair any damage to a ship still able to float (and, in the end, they would have had three Olympic Class ship instead of two, and avoided a lot of bad press)

As said, there were not only slight differences between the Titanic and the Olympic (The Titanic was muche more similar to the sister ship Britannic). Apart from the construction number (that's plenty of evidence that the ship that sunk was the Titanic, since to switch all the numbered part would have meant to completely rebuild the two ships), the most obvious difference was in the upper decks.

This was not only aesthetical, but corresponded to a different dimensioning of the services of the first class. To switch the two upper decks would have required weeks of work of thousands of workers.

Some of those statements differ considerably from those given in the doccos mentioned (and others) and I have been given cause to be a little less than trusting of the photos of the time too regarding which ship is what.

In any case, regarding the photos above, the whole deck would not need replacing, just some cosmetic plating on the outside of the upper one. There is also the question of when the Olympic  photo was taken. She did go through several transformations.

Frankly I don't know the truth of it. The question remains, at least for now. I think the first docco in particular is worth a watch however.

[Dogwalker]

There is also the question of when the Olympic  photo was taken. She did go through several transformations.

The Olympic upper deck's promenade had never been enclosed throughout its life. It was opened at its launch, Opened when the ship served as troop transport during WWI, and opened when the ship was finally scrapped in the '30s





and the differencies between the two ships were not only cosmetic. During the first trips of the Olympic it was seen that the B deck promenade was rarely used, so the B deck on the Titanic was heavily modified during construction, increasing the tonnage of the ship of 1000 tons. This is the rear part of the B deck on the two ships.

[Dogwalker]

Ironically, the B deck of the Olympic was transformed to be similar to that of the Titanic during the late 1912 refitting of he ship.
So, think of it. In late 1911, in a desperate effort to switch the two ships, the first class cabins, restaurants,and so on, of the Titanic were shrunk to the dimensions of those of the Olympic, while, in the same time, those of the Olympic were enlarged, and all the fittings switched, all silencig hundreds of workers employed.
Then, one year later, the first class cabins, restaurants,and so on, of the Titanic (now renamed Olympic) were enlarged again, to a form similar to that they already had.
A completely useless work done twice. Since the White Star Line managers could have simply said to have taken advantage of the repairings, to upgrade the installations of the Olympic in late 1911.
And it would have been completely credible.

[johnr]

Well I agree that all that wouldn't have been done. However given the state of photography at the time added to the fact that pictures from the Olympic were often used to advertise the Titanic I'm not sure they would have to do all that to pull the stunt off (If in fact that is what happened)

Certainly full repairs to the bent keel of the Olympic implied a great deal more than the two weeks it took for a patch up. It would involve rebuilding the rear half of the ship.

However I should be clear. I'm not taking a "this is what happened " stance.  I'm taking a "there is something fishy about all this and here is one possible explanation" stance.

[Dogwalker]

Well I agree that all that wouldn't have been done. However given the state of photography at the time added to the fact that pictures from the Olympic were often used to advertise the Titanic I'm not sure they would have to do all that to pull the stunt off (If in fact that is what happened)

Really, is today that pictures of the Olympic, especially those taken after the late1912 refitting, are often sold for those of the Titanic, for the simple fact that many pictures of the Olympic exist, while the Titanic had not remained afloat enough to have every part of it pictured. But the state of photography at that time was developed enough to know that the B-deck of the olympic at his launch, and until the refitting, was like that.

While the same deck on the Titanic was occupied by the "A la Carte Restaurant" on the right side and the Cafe Parisien on the left side (and then by the cabins).

The two ships, at that time, were equally famous. The passengers knew what was expecting them once on board. It would have been very difficult to fool them.

Certainly full repairs to the bent keel of the Olympic implied a great deal more than the two weeks it took for a patch up. It would involve rebuilding the rear half of the ship.

Allegedly bent.
The only source stating that the keel of the Olympic was bent are the "switch teory" creators.
Apart from the conclusion of the official commission, the pictures taken only show slight damages to the side plating. The terrible "ram" of the Hawke only made that small indentation at the waterline (it was its function. It wasn't made to bend keels, but to open holes in the hulls and let the water enter).

It seems really difficult that those damages could bent the keel of a 90 feet large ship with a draft that extends 34 feet below that indentation.
We know, from multiple inquiries made on the fate of the Titanic, that those plates were very brittle. Is really unlikely that the damages appeared to be more slight on the surface than they really were.
Furthermore, the Hawke was a dwarf compared to the Olympic. it had only 17% of its tonnange, and the collision happened at a very reduced speed.

The Switch Theory, like most fortunate "conspiracy theory" is fascinating, but, to me, does not seem to have much substance.

[johnr]

You know Dogwalker, I got all interested in this stuff and ended up researching stuff way into the wee hours. In fact I noticed at 7am that it was still dark! Summer has definitely left us.

The net result is that I have in fact come round to your point of view.

Without going into details, the two main things that derailed the theory for me was; a/ The lack of evidence for increased insurance by the White Star line, without which a switch would have been pointless, and b/ The overwhelming evidence for the continued existence of the Olympic.

As conspiracy theories go though this was a pretty good one (and worth watching for it's own sake) and questions remain. Like just what was the California up too? 

Also, even if there was some plan as yet uncovered (seems unlikely) to sink the Titanic, the arrival of an iceberg dead ahead must have been fortuitous rather than planned. 

I bow to your argument Sir!

[fossil]

Who says that the Olympic was in the Yard for two weeks after the ramming? As I wrote above the time has been three months. And this is well-documented.

What about the idea that the real Titanic is stored in Area 51 and that the wreck we know is a fake consisting of an old trawler and some harbour boats painted adequately?

[Dogwalker]

Who says that the Olympic was in the Yard for two weeks after the ramming? As I wrote above the time has been three months. And this is well-documented.

The incident occurred on 20 sep 1911, after the incident it was decided to not transfer the passengers, and the ship returned to Southampton the day after.
There, a temporary wooden patch was applied to cover the hole, and, on 3 oct, the ship left Southampton, under her own steam but at reduces speed, to Belfast where it arrived 3 days later.

Then, the ship was drydocked, the damage enquired by the official commission, and then the real repairing works started. The definitive repairings took few weeks, and the Olympic left the shipyard on 20 nov, returning back to Southmpton on 23 nov, and starting its 5th north atlantic trip (technically the sixth, but the fifth compelted) on 29 nov.

Three months later, on 24 feb. 1912, while on its way from New York to Southampton, the Olympic lost a propeller's blade, and had to return to Belfast again for repairings. The famous picture of the Olympic next to the Titanic was taken on that occasion.


The two incidents occurred to the Olympic had the effect to delay the Titanic's completion, infact, on 25 Sep 1911, the Withe star line announced that the Titanic's maiden voyage would start on 20 mar 1912, but, then, it had to be posponed to 10 apr.