Author Topic: The Referendum is done! (Read 8234 times)

johnr · « **on:** March 24, 2016, 07:42:11 AM »

It's all over and the votes are in and binding. The people have spoken. We are to keep our current flag.

I am well pleased!

rocker59 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 24, 2016, 08:00:09 AM »

Sheepdog · « **Reply #2 on:** March 24, 2016, 08:07:20 AM »

The new one was nice, but I think I agree.

oldbike54 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 24, 2016, 08:49:43 AM »

Well dangit , didn't even know there was an attempt to change the Kiwi flag

Glad you guys kept the old version , lovely flag for a lovely country

Dusty

leafman60 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 24, 2016, 09:26:41 AM »

Quote from: johnr on March 24, 2016, 07:42:11 AM

It's all over and the votes are in and binding. The people have spoken. We are to keep our current flag.

I am well pleased!

Can you elaborate?

I assumed that there was an effort to ditch the Union Jack????

Did anyone suggest substituting the American Confederate Battle Flag from Virginia? (joooooking)

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #5 on:** March 24, 2016, 10:09:07 AM »

I did see one or two of the others on my trip, and it certainly created a discussion.
I would have been happy either way, glad it's put to rest.

https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/

boatdetective · « **Reply #6 on:** March 24, 2016, 10:10:18 AM »

Good on ya! The controversy seems a bit pandering to me.

ITSec · « **Reply #7 on:** March 24, 2016, 12:13:55 PM »

Well, having seen the debate in Canada back when the maple leaf displaced the Jack ensign, I didn't see anything in the new designs that was as simple and eloquent as the maple leaf was for Canada. With no new design capturing the spirit, why change? Good on ya, mates!

injundave · « **Reply #8 on:** March 24, 2016, 07:09:23 PM »

For many people, myself included, a new flag would have been a great idea, except we got the one the prime minister preferred shoved at us. It was better to keep the old one than give him the satisfaction. I am happy to stay with what we had until we get a fairer way to decide on a new one.

Arizona Wayne · « **Reply #9 on:** March 24, 2016, 11:53:59 PM »

What's the specialness of a silver fern?

All the ferns I've ever seen are green.

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #10 on:** March 25, 2016, 01:00:53 AM »

Quote from: Arizona Wayne on March 24, 2016, 11:53:59 PM

What's the specialness of a silver fern?

All the ferns I've ever seen are green.

That's why the silver one is special

http://www.nzflag.com/silverfern.cfm

johnr · « **Reply #11 on:** March 25, 2016, 01:34:13 AM »

Quote from: leafman60 on March 24, 2016, 09:26:41 AM

Can you elaborate?

I assumed that there was an effort to ditch the Union Jack????

Correct.

I had planned not to elaborate as any such runs a grave danger of becoming political and that I do not want. But as there are no party politics involved or "leftnesses or rightnesses" I'll give explaining the situation a shot.

A British Dominion such as ourselves, is a nation that is entirely independent but in which the Monarchy (NOT the UK government) continues to play a role, albeit a very minor and background one for the most part.

The queens representative (The Governor General) must sign off on any new law, and is responsible for the acceptance of a new government after an election. The monarchy has the power to dismiss a government if the need arises (as it did in Australia some years ago. You could just about hear the Australian citizens cheers from over here at the time) All the Armed forces 1st loyalty is to the Monarchy and part of the dedication of a regiment is to "The preservation of good government"'

Without going into this more deeply, The Monarchy serves the same function for us as the constitution does for those in the USA. though it is some what more flexible in nature. There are great advantages in it for the New Zealand citizen.

Politicians in general do not like this as being for the most part seekers of power over the people they have no love for a power over themselves to keep them in line.

Over the years they have made moves to distance us from the Monarchy. For example the Governor General is now selected from among our own citizens by our Government rather than being selected and sent out here by the Queen. This means the possibility now exists for political appointments, or, should the governor General refuse to sign off on a law, he or she may have then live with a hostile and vengeful bunch of powerful politicians. The are a number of other examples.

The flag change was indeed an attempt at furthering this distance. None of the alternative flags selected by Government (after a competition to provide designs) included the Union Jack.

The way the referendum was carried out was sneaky and wrong too. It was done in via two referendums in fact. The first should have asked "Do you think we need a new flag?" I suspect that the answer to that would have been about an 80% to 90% NO! Instead they asked "If we were to have a new flag, which of these 5 designs would you choose?" This then gave about 6 months for the "Gobles department" to do it's stuff and try to persuade us to the new one thus selected. It didn't work and $29m later, after the second referendum, we still have the same flag.

Quote

Did anyone suggest substituting the American Confederate Battle Flag from Virginia? (joooooking)

Strangely, no.

johnr · « **Reply #12 on:** March 25, 2016, 01:48:44 AM »

Quote from: Kiwi_Roy on March 24, 2016, 10:09:07 AM

I did see one or two of the others on my trip, and it certainly created a discussion.
I would have been happy either way, glad it's put to rest.

https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/

Sorry I didn't get to meet you on that trip Roy. I hope it was a good one though.

molly · « **Reply #13 on:** March 25, 2016, 05:21:37 AM »

I'm pleased the NZ people kept the old flag. Many people here in the UK would rather we dumped the European Union and strengthened our links once again with the Commonwealth before our union flag is replaced with something shall we say more 'eastern'.

johnr · « **Reply #14 on:** March 25, 2016, 06:46:48 AM »

Quote from: molly on March 25, 2016, 05:21:37 AM

I'm pleased the NZ people kept the old flag. Many people here in the UK would rather we dumped the European Union and strengthened our links once again with the Commonwealth before our union flag is replaced with something shall we say more 'eastern'.

There is much virtue in that approach Molly. Best to get to work strengthening the Commonwealth quick smart though. There have been forces at work to destroy it for years now.

O · « **Reply #15 on:** March 25, 2016, 07:23:05 AM »

As a complete outsider, I prefer the new flag aesthetically, and also appreciate the historical significance of the silver fern.

Johnr, Thanks for the background behind this debate. The perspective for keeping the original flag makes a lot more sense now.

trippah · « **Reply #16 on:** March 25, 2016, 08:53:09 AM »

Interesting situation, and now the silver fern will be etched in my mind. Must admit the new flag was more esthetically pleasing but the history (and politics) attached to the old flag is an understandable draw.

oldbike54 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 25, 2016, 09:07:04 AM »

I will admit to not being all that familiar with the politics of the commonwealth , or the EU , but let's be careful here folks . Thanks

Dusty

Xlratr · « **Reply #18 on:** March 25, 2016, 09:08:29 AM »

Good decision. I think the old one has more class.
But I must say, I think the Canadians made a good choice! That's a pretty flag!

Spuddy · « **Reply #19 on:** March 25, 2016, 02:42:56 PM »

Now that I know the NZ has the southern cross, I hope not to get it confused with the Aussie flag. Before they were just flags with night time stars...

Spud

rocker59 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 25, 2016, 03:08:43 PM »

Quote from: Spuddy on March 25, 2016, 02:42:56 PM

Now that I know the NZ has the southern cross, I hope not to get it confused with the Aussie flag. Before they were just flags with night time stars...

Spud

There are a couple extra stars on the Aussie flag...

versus the Kiwi flag...

twowings · « **Reply #21 on:** March 25, 2016, 03:44:58 PM »

Somehow, it seems fitting there should be a portrait of Burt Monro or his bike incorporated into the design....

johnr · « **Reply #22 on:** March 25, 2016, 08:53:48 PM »

One of the reasons for the debate was that our flag was too similar to the Australian one.
Both show the Southern Cross, (though I would argue that the NZ flag is the prettier of the two with its red stars) However We had our one first and the Ozzies copied it. (they claim a lot of our stuff, The recipe for pavlova for example) If the similarity is a problem, let the Ozzies change theirs I say.

I should also point out that flag as it stands is the one that has been fought under since our becoming an independent Dominion in 1902. That includes the Boar War, (Edit. oops, we became a Dominion in 1907. The Boar War would have been faught under the Union Jack) the 1st and 2nd world wars Korea, Borneo, Malaysia, Vietnam and various other conflicts right up to Afghanistan. Such things tend to build an affinity and loyalty to a flag.

Motu · « **Reply #23 on:** March 26, 2016, 01:30:35 AM »

I'm not too fussed about changing the flag, if it was a good one, I'd be all for it. But that flag was not my choice, and no one is going to tell me what to do.

What really concerns me is the money, the country is still broke, and with dairy prices still down there will be no budget surplus any day soon. So who got this $27 million dollars? I'd like to see the paper trail. I bet none of this money got into the community, I know who the non productive people were that made millions out of this farce, their name starts with C and ends in T.

pikipiki · « **Reply #24 on:** March 26, 2016, 02:33:53 AM »

Quote from: johnr on March 25, 2016, 08:53:48 PM

One of the reasons for the debate was that our flag was too similar to the Australian one.
Both show the Southern Cross, (though I would argue that the NZ flag is the prettier of the two with its red stars) However We had our one first and the Ozzies copied it. (they claim a lot of our stuff, The recipe for pavlova for example) If the similarity is a problem, let the Ozzies change theirs I say.

You could tell those ozzies they need an away colours flag for sporting events in New Zealand just like football teams have away colours. Of course you'd then be the butt of jokes because you'd be assuming that they might win to hoist thier flag. That and they might also joke it's only NewZealanders who struggle to tell the difference.
These flag debates in NZ and Australia are always doomed to failure regardless of thier merrits because they are always used as a form of distraction politics. Oh dear our economic policies aren't going down as well as we hoped, I know lets have a referendum about changing the flag or leaving the commonwealth. What we have seen is that Australians and NewZealanders aren't suckers for that kind of BS and that can only be a good thing.

Trogladyte · « **Reply #25 on:** March 26, 2016, 06:38:51 AM »

Quote from: molly on March 25, 2016, 05:21:37 AM

I'm pleased the NZ people kept the old flag. Many people here in the UK would rather we dumped the European Union and strengthened our links once again with the Commonwealth before our union flag is replaced with something shall we say more 'eastern'.

Many of us don't, too.

johnr · « **Reply #26 on:** March 26, 2016, 08:21:45 AM »

Quote from: Motu on March 26, 2016, 01:30:35 AM

So who got this $27 million dollars? I'd like to see the paper trail.

Me too. I'm just itching for that question to come up publicly. However Motu, I'm not sure we should head off on that 'in house' track in this forum.

oldbike54 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 26, 2016, 10:43:08 AM »

Quote from: johnr on March 26, 2016, 08:21:45 AM

Me too. I'm just itching for that question to come up publicly. However Motu, I'm not sure we should head off on that 'in house' track in this forum.

Yeah , probably a discussion best had somewhere else

Politics is politics , even in a country of 4 million folks .

Disclaimer , no slight intended , you guys know I am a great admirer of New Zealand

Dusty

cruzziguzzi · « **Reply #28 on:** March 26, 2016, 12:23:46 PM »

Being grounded in tradition as I am, I am happy to see an issue in which I have no reasonable say, fall in my favor.

Fearing all which is new and unusual - I do not like the Lord Of The Rings alternative at all.

Todd.

ScepticalScotty · « **Reply #29 on:** March 26, 2016, 01:15:01 PM »

Oh thats a pity I liked the new design. Too bad we Aussies don't have a flag of our own yet. Something incorporating the Eureka Stockade flag and the Aboriginal flag and the Torres Strait Is flag would be good.

News:

Author Topic: The Referendum is done! (Read 8234 times)

oldbike54

oldbike54

twowings

oldbike54