Figure 8's on a Norge-advice

[steelby]

Maybe it's just me, but when I practice figure 8's, or do a sharp u-turn out on the road with my 2014 Norge there is a sort of drag/heavy roll to the turn.  I checked the tire air pressure, and all is good.  It's been like this since day 1 so it's not a new development. 

It just seems compared to some other bikes I've had (Honda's, BMW, Yamaha's) the Norge is a bit heavy handed in a close bite, especially when you get really tight almost to a lock position.  It's completely manageable, and will turn tight when needed, but when you get really close to a wheel lock it just feels sort of sluggish and slow, like I have to muscle it around. 

Not light, fast and smooth like it is everywhere else in life, but sluggish, heavy and seems to require a fair amount of persuading.  Anybody else seeing this, or is it just me? 

"When you come to a fork in the road, take it."  -Yogi Berra

[Gliderjohn]

I own a 2011. Not sure what to tell you except a Norge is a big somewhat tall bike and what you are describing is not it's forte. I don't find it a problem but then although I have been riding for decades I have only owned three bikes so I do not have much to compare it to. Are you sure you are not unconsciously dragging a brake?
GliderJohn

[fotoguzzi]

Wheelbase: 58.8 in.
Rake/Trail: 25 degrees/4.7 in.

[atavar]

I find I have to consciously weight the outer foot peg.  Get off the seat a bit, get your weight down low on the foot pegs and it will do a lot better. This lets you use your weight in the turn and keep the bike more upright and off of the sidewalls for a smoother roll.
The biggest problem doing this is with the drive lash from the tranny.  In opposition to an earlier post do drag a brake just a bit to load the drive train just a bit so you can keep a touch of throttle on and avoid the leading/trailing transitions and the slow speed maneuvers will be easier. 
The last thing that may sound silly but makes a huge difference is look where you want the bike to go.  Don't look just in front of the tyre, turn your head and look all the way to the next transition, like halfway around the arc you are just starting or to the point of entering the next arc.  Your bike and your body will automagically do what is needed to get you there. 

[Triple Jim]

Obviously not the same bike, but my Mille has heavy steering, meaning it feels like the front tire is half flat, when going 10 mph or less.  I have always attributed it to the fact that it's the heaviest motorcycle I own.  In the 20 to 45 mph range, steering is much lighter than I'd expect, and has a very "flickable" feel. 

[Huzo]

I find I have to consciously weight the outer foot peg.  Get off the seat a bit, get your weight down low on the foot pegs and it will do a lot better. This lets you use your weight in the turn and keep the bike more upright and off of the sidewalls for a smoother roll.
The biggest problem doing this is with the drive lash from the tranny.  In opposition to an earlier post do drag a brake just a bit to load the drive train just a bit so you can keep a touch of throttle on and avoid the leading/trailing transitions and the slow speed maneuvers will be easier. 
The last thing that may sound silly but makes a huge difference is look where you want the bike to go.  Don't look just in front of the tyre, turn your head and look all the way to the next transition, like halfway around the arc you are just starting or to the point of entering the next arc.  Your bike and your body will automagically do what is needed to get you there.

Although I don't disagree with the premise of what you say, I'd need to be convinced that weighting the pegs will have any effect one way or the other because whether you've got your weight on the pegs or the seat, your centre of mass remains essentially unchanged, however if I need correction here, I'd appreciate anyone's input. I've heard some damn good riders say stuff like that, but from an applied physics point of view I can't come to any other conclusion. The same thing I suggest is applicable to dragging the rear brake, in a previous post someone said the dragging the rear brake "stabilises" the bike, my thought is that would only be true if you were decelerating the mass, and that's not what we're doing in this instance, one must take into account that the rear wheel is being driven and braked at the same time, the rear tyre only feels the resultant of these two forces which if  you are at constant velocity is basically zero. However it is true that trailing some brake gives instant thrust when you reduce pedal pressure, and you have eliminated the dreaded lash. Am I a long way off here ?

[kingoffleece]

For those super slow turns I was instructed to counterweight and drag the rear brake to eliminate drive train lash.  Steady throttle and control speed with clutch.

Watching the instructors there's no questiom that whatever the "rules" are the technique works, and works well.  Those guys were spinning large bikes around on a dime!

[pikipiki]

For those super slow turns I was instructed to counterweight and drag the rear brake to eliminate drive train lash.  Steady throttle and control speed with clutch.

Watching the instructors there's no question that whatever the "rules" are the technique works, and works well.  Those guys were spinning large bikes around on a dime!

Yes thats what I was told back when I did training in 1987. People with cg125s were managing to do figure 8 in the required area even with bad technique but a couple of us had heavier, longer and higher stance bikes (MZs). The instuctor held the back of the rack runing round as I performed the instructed technique for my first few attempts.

[redrider]

I have been a MSF instructor for 8 years and here is the scoop. Head turns are crucial. You should be able to see the rear of the bike in your peripheral vision. Counter weight by moving your upper body to the outside of the turn. Knees on the tank. Press down on the outside footrest. Control speed with the clutch and drag the rear brake slightly. Lean that bike! Do NOT touch the front brake or squeeze the clutch lever fully. Stay in the friction zone. Do not look down unless you want to go down. In or on any vehicle, the throttle controls engine speed only. Sear that into your memory. We can put 3 Ultra Classic bikes in the blue box at once. Not bragging, any one can manage it.

[rocker59]

  Counter weight by moving your upper body to the outside of the turn. 

 :1:

[tazio]

Although I don't disagree with the premise of what you say, I'd need to be convinced that weighting the pegs will have any effect one way or the other because whether you've got your weight on the pegs or the seat, your centre of mass remains essentially unchanged, however if I need correction here, I'd appreciate anyone's input.

Weighting pegs lowers center of gravity

[rocker59]

Weighting pegs lowers center of gravity

Not really.

 

[Huzo]

Weighting pegs lowers center of gravity

Can you explain that? Doesn't it just lower the point of support ? Your centre of mass is still somewhere arond your centre torso. I know that dragging some brake feels more stable but not for only because you are able to put the drive thru the wheel at a constant rate. The point of thrust is behind the centre of mass and so is inherently unstable. Ask Gliderjohn to explain a groundloop in a glider.

[Triple Jim]

Getting off the seat and putting your weight on the pegs doesn't change the position of your body's center of mass much unless you stand up, and it doesn't change the bike's center of mass at all.  But when you're seated, to some extent the two masses are connected and act as one larger mass.  What getting off the seat and onto the pegs does do is disconnect the two masses so they can more more independently.

I can envision this separation allowing the rider to change the position of the bike faster, and having his body lead the action, or catch up later, or a little of each.

[tazio]

Not really.

 

Well, learn something new all the time.
I've probably read that statement concerning the center of gravity being lowered when
you stand on the pegs a dozen times or so..
Huzo, I can no more explain gravity than I can the center of it! 

[oldbike54]

                                                                        Gravity
                                                              Not just a good idea
                                                                     But the law

 Dusty

[pikipiki]

Putting weight on pegs as opposed to seat helps balance when making slow speed manoeuvres (for most people). Counter balancing leans the bike over more tightening turning radius. I'd practice both keeping your weight on the seat and on the pegs: because maybe one day your knees wont work so well and you might need to relly on a seated technique.

[canuguzzi]

Weighting the pegs distributes weight outwards and while that doesn't change the center of gravity it does increase leverage of the carried weight. When the weight is carried by the seat body movement has less effect that if the weight is supported outwards from the seat. It works like handlebars in that the farther your grip is from the stem the less pressure it takes to turn the bars.

You can't change the weight but you can change the leverage the weight has and what it does by distributing it differenty.

[Huzo]

Kirbmeister, Triple Jim and Tazio, thanks for your responses, I've heard and experienced what we're talking about regarding brake trailing, if Hardaspie did a bit of practice at this technique she'd be riding Wolfie around today, and I really hope she has a change of heart about her riding future, but back to topic. I've noticed over (too many) years that there's a tendancy for people (including me) to use a technique that works then come up with a reason why it works which is often flawed, what you need is an explanation based on first principles, and there's a massive spread of knowledge on this forum, everyone knows a fair bit about something or other. Hey Kirbster, Gliderjohn and Cloudbase, can you believe I once read an explanation as to WHY a glider's airspeed increases and decreases in a stabilised turn when thermalling due to windspeed !!!!!! Fair dinkum, I couldn't beleive it !!!!!!!!Just to make the point how easy it is to beleive what you want to beleive 'cos it's so self fulfilling. Now Kirbster, ask me about P factor, 'nuff said from me. Huzo.

[Huzo]

Weighting the pegs distributes weight outwards and while that doesn't change the center of gravity it does increase leverage of the carried weight. When the weight is carried by the seat body movement has less effect that if the weight is supported outwards from the seat. It works like handlebars in that the farther your grip is from the stem the less pressure it takes to turn the bars.

You can't change the weight but you can change the leverage the weight has and what it does by distributing it differenty.

But see Norgie, I honestly don't want to troll especially you,but mate, if you put your weight on the outside 'peg, you have to lean the bike inwards to keep your centre of mass in the correct place, to remain balanced, in fact the bike will assume the correct angle all by itself, if you try it in a large open area, start by doing a large circle standing, then lift your inside foot snd see qhat happens to the bank angle (lean) without altering anything else

[Huzo]

Norgie, Just reading the first half of your post again, you've got me second guessing myself a bit when you say that you're increasing the leverage of that weight, thinking about what you say, I'm bound to agree, but wouldn't that mean you'd have to have the bike leaning in even more to counteract that stronger effect ? 'Cos after all Norgie, at the end of the day, you are still a single track vehicle and the resultant of your vectors in the rolling plane have to be zero, unlike pitching plane. Jump in Kirbster, this is a good chat with good informed opinions.

[Bisbonian]

But see Norgie, I honestly don't want to troll especially you,but mate, if you put your weight on the outside 'peg, you have to lean the bike inwards to keep your centre of mass in the correct place, to remain balanced, in fact the bike will assume the correct angle all by itself, if you try it in a large open area, start by doing a large circle standing, then lift your inside foot snd see qhat happens to the bank angle (lean) without altering anything else

If you put your weight on the inside peg it is harder to get a good counterweight. In some cases your inside foot will not even be in contact with the peg depending on the severity of your counterweight.

Go try it instead of just typing about it.

[Scud]

Turning - in Lee Parks' "Total Control" book, he describes slow-speed tight turns as something like "force the bike to lean into the turn, keep your body higher (more upright), and look where you want to go." It helped me a lot - and I think this is similar to what others have already posted - and what it being taught in courses.

Center of Gravity - this is an often-misused term. Center of gravity is just a mathematical construct based on the location of mass. This comes up a lot with dirt-bike riders who feel more in control when we stand up while riding over rough terrain. Standing on the pegs actually RAISES the center of gravity, because the mass (of your ass) is higher. But it LOWERS the pivot point of the bike relative to your body from your ass to your feet. Your legs become part of the suspension and the bike feels easier to control. The same principle works, but to a smaller extent, by weighting the footpegs on a street bike.

[Huzo]

If you put your weight on the inside peg it is harder to get a good counterweight. In some cases your inside foot will not even be in contact with the peg depending on the severity of your counterweight.

Go try it instead of just typing about it.

Yeah Bis, I don't think I said anywhere that putting your weight on the INSIDE peg was the thing to do, My suggestion was that just by standing on the OUTER peg you are not moving your centre of mass appreciably because as soon as you stand on the outer peg, you consequently have to lean the bike inwards to remain balanced. I've re read my post and I can't equate what I said to what you're saying, but if I'm missing something Bis I'm sorry to be a pain. Now what was it that I was supposed to go and try, and how do you know that I haven't, I don't understand where a "good counterweight" comes into the argument, if you think you have a need to defend Norge Pilot you can save your energy. No need to start a slanging match Bissy, we've been doing OK for a little while now. Huzo.

[Two Checks]

Dragging the rear brake...on a bike with integrated brakes you also apply the front.
Affects handling.

[Huzo]

Yeah Bisbonian, I've just looked back through the posts and noticed what red rider says, he's gonna be up with things damn well and I see he used the "counterweight" term, so if you're drawing from his comment then fair enough. From a Physics point of view I can guarantee that your centre of mass will be directly in line with a line from the contact patch up through the wheels and thru' the riders torso somewhere. The force of gravity acting directly vertical will equal centrifugal force horizontal, changing your position on the bike will bloody well not alter that fact, but I freely admit it "feels" better. Again as for "going out and trying it",I have been, since 1970. Anyway whatd'ya reckon ?

[steelby]

Counter weight by moving your upper body to the outside of the turn. Knees on the tank. Press down on the outside footrest. Control speed with the clutch and drag the rear brake slightly. Lean that bike! Do NOT touch the front brake or squeeze the clutch lever fully. Stay in the friction zone.

I think this is good advice.  The only thing I have not paid any attention to is pressing down on the outside of the footrest.  All the rest I do okay, probably don't turn the head fast enough or far enough, as several have emphasized.

[steelby]

Posted by: Two Checks
« on: Today at 07:55:51 PM »

 

Dragging the rear brake...on a bike with integrated brakes you also apply the front.
Affects handling.

So every time with ABS (standard with a Norge) when you drag the rear brake, you are also engaging the front?  Is that correct?  It does not feel like the front is engaging at all when I drag the rear slightly, and I think I would maybe feel that?  Even at slow speeds?  Help me understand this.

[Huzo]

Yeah I've never said that it doesn't work, just that I think some of the reasoning is a bit lame and not based in fact, does feel good though.

[Huzo]

Posted by: Two Checks
� on: Today at 07:55:51 PM �

 

So every time with ABS (standard with a Norge) when you drag the rear brake, you are also engaging the front?  Is that correct?  It does not feel like the front is engaging at all when I drag the rear slightly, and I think I would maybe feel that?  Even at slow speeds?  Help me understand this.

No mate, the brakes on your Norge are not linked but you do have ABS.