Flat tappets ok???

[esmurrell]

I need some help.  I have a 2012 Norge with flat tappets.  I just got my 6K service completed and requested my tappets be inspected/converted to rollers.  My dealer took some pictures and sent them to Moto Guzzi for approval to convert.  Moto Guzzi says my tappets are in great working condition and denied the request to convert.  I don't know what I'm looking at and need ya'lls help figuring this out (especially Pete Roper) as I don't know what I'm looking at.  Hopefully these pictures will make it;






Thanks for all of the help.

[Wayne Orwig]

You have to pull the cam box and look inside.
At only 6000 miles, it may be fine. But it will eventually fail.
This is one at about 8000 miles from a 2012 Griso.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Uhhhh.. oh never mind. 

[MotoG5]

The pictures you have posted don't really show anything other than the tops of the cam boxes. No wonder Piaggio said they were OK! As OMG said you need to pull the boxes out to see any damage. The picture of the cam lobes and tappets from my bike show the damage. Any missing DLC like on the upper tappet in the picture is enough to be a fail. Also note overheating discoloration on the cam lobe. Its not if its when for all flat tappet engines.

[Dilliw]

You have to pull the cam box and look inside.
At only 6000 miles, it may be fine. But it will eventually fail.
This is one at about 8000 miles from a 2012 Griso.

This amount of damage was accepted by MG for repair and I now have rollers.

[Xlratr]

Hi Esmurrell. Those photos you posted, are they the only ones your dealer submitted?
Wondering if the dealer is the same one from the "Is my Norge a lemon?" thread! 

[esmurrell]

I just spoke with my dealer and these are the only pictures they took.  They tell me that if clearances on the valves are off at all, that's the tell tale sign the look further.  In my case, the clearances were spot on and they had no reason to look any further.  This is the reason I asked the question on this forum because I don't know what to look at or for and need some guidance from folks that know more than me.  My dealer did also say that he will make another run at Moto Guzzi for me to see if he can get this authorized as I don't want problems down the line.  I'm open to more feedback from others.

Thank you,

Eric

[Waltr]

  A cam box needs to come off.  Even at 6,000 miles I would bet to see some wear of the coating material.  Dealer did not do his job.  Of course you need to approve a tear down and submission of a report to the factory service rep.  We did have a bike bike with over 20K have hardly no wear at all but they approved. Your dealer needs to have a good working relationship with  the rep.

  If he does pull it apart and NO wear is found the labor is on you.

[jlburgess]

  A cam box needs to come off.  Even at 6,000 miles I would bet to see some wear of the coating material.  Dealer did not do his job.  Of course you need to approve a tear down and submission of a report to the factory service rep.  We did have a bike bike with over 20K have hardly no wear at all but they approved. Your dealer needs to have a good working relationship with  the rep.

  If he does pull it apart and NO wear is found the labor is on you.

Which is exactly what happened to me.  I'm out $500 for the inspection and still have flat tappets that are supposedly in perfect shape with 13k miles on them and counting....

[Xlratr]

Yep, at 6,000 miles it could go either way. But I think the general opinion is that it's only a question of time until they fail. As far as i recall, everybody here who had them inspected (and saw the result themselves!) reported they were worn. I'd wager they probably show some wear already, but having them inspected at 10,000 would probably be a safer bet if you're worried about sitting on the cost of inspection.

For your information, mine were worn but never showed any sign of the valve lash opening up. I think when it gets to that stage, they are well gone!

I would think about finding a different dealer. It seems they don't really know what they're doing.

[pete roper]

Good grief. I posted up a vid not long ago of me pulling a cambox on a Griso. I wasn't hurrying and it took me thirteen minutes. ITS NOT A $500 JOB!

Unfortunately relying on the valve clearances not changing is NOT adequate. I too believed this was a logical observation and it cost me my engine. It isn't adequate because of the way the DLC fails. The gaps won't change appreciably until all the coating has abraded, then they open up very quickly. Unfortunately by that time they will of fed diamond dust all through the engine. The results of this can be catastrophic.

It's unfortunate that many dealers don't seem to have anybody in their workshops capable of pulling a cambox. Believe me I see it a lot here too.

Pete

[ohiorider]

The surprising thing is ......... how could Piaggio/MG look at these pics and say 'things are ok?'  Change dealers asap.

[pete roper]

That vid is in this thread.

http://www.grisoghetto.com/t1987-roper-tech-tappet-inspection-on-flattie-8v

Note all usual caveats on Ghetto threads. 'May contain coarse language, Not safe for work etc'. If you are of a tender disposition don't look.

Pete

[Wayne Orwig]

Which is exactly what happened to me.  I'm out $500 for the inspection and still have flat tappets that are supposedly in perfect shape with 13k miles on them and counting....

The photo above that I took was after Dilliw drove HOURS to near me, picked up the Griso, drove to my place, I found the damage and took photos, and he drove HOURS back home. No way near a $500 job.

[pete roper]

On something like a Norge you have to remove the fairings, or at least part of them. That adds another whole fifteen minutes to the job. Actually swapping out the camboxes on models that need the heads to come off takes considerably longer and to rollerise properly you need to drop the sump for a check but the actual inspection is very quick. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either a dolt or incompetent.

Pete

[beetle]

Which is exactly what happened to me.  I'm out $500 for the inspection and still have flat tappets that are supposedly in perfect shape with 13k miles on them and counting....

Bollocks! I'd bet dollars to donuts your flatties are shagged.

[Xlratr]

Bollocks! I'd bet dollars to donuts your flatties are shagged.

I wouldn't risk my donuts! I think you're right!:-(

[pete roper]

I've had a couple of 1200 Sports in recently one of which had only 6,000km on it and there was already detectable wear. Wear patterns and the amount of wear tends to vary greatly and is certainly severely impacted by climate/temperature but since I instigated my 'Inspect every Flattie that comes through the shop' policy I have found a 100% failure rate.

100%

Every last motherless one of them. It's very disappointing.

I can take some pics documenting the decay if anyone's interested?

Pete

[esmurrell]

I just spoke with my dealer and after getting an earful from me, he figured out a way to get Guzzi to cover this.  So at this point I'm waiting for the kit to arrive and he will make the conversion for me.  My next question is around how long it will take to do the conversion.  My dealer is telling me about 6 hours.  Is this consistent with what others have seen?  If not, what's a good amount of time?

Thanks again everyone - really appreciate your help!

Eric

[pete roper]

IF the job is done correctly that will be about right I'd guess. A 2012 Norge will require an 'A' kit which won't require removal of the heads BUT ask your dealer to drop the sump and clean it thoroughly and be prepared to pay him to do it. The factory recommendation is simply that after rollerisation you just 'Flush' the engine by adding a couple of litres of oil and running it for a few minutes before draining it again and refilling with a new filter. This is about as much use as an ejector seat in a helicopter! To get the diamond dust out of the sump it needs to be removed and cleaned thoroughly. This isn't difficult but it is a bit time consuming but as I said, it's really worth doing.

If your dealer hasn't done this before advise his mechanic to just read through my 'Rollerisation' thread. It may help him avoid some of the easier pitfalls that can trap the unwary novice.

Pete

PS, your dealer shouldn't have to 'Figure out a way' to get it covered. What is required is pictures of the damage, pictures of the inner faces of the heads, (To show if there is a 'Dot' in the paint.) and pictures of the inside of a rocker cover to show what type of plug tube gasket is used. The claim will then be sent to Italy for approval. The only one I've had knocked back was one with a Vin# that didn't exist because the stupid bastard operating the dot matrix machine that stamps the frames at the factory had typed in an X instead of a 6 and the claim was denied! Assholes!

[pyoungbl]

Us non mechanics tend to think that you can just pop the valve cover and take a look-see to determine if the tappets are OK.  Think back to older V8 engines.  You could pull up the tappet by using a magnet and there it was.  In the case of the 8V Guzzi engine you cannot do that.  The engine has a high cam that sits off to the side of the cylinder.

Here you can see the cam with the lifters and pushrods above.  The pushrods are only about 2" long.
  The tappets sit under a cam box.  The tappets themselves are like a top hat...see the photo:

so you have to take the cam box off in order to see the bottom of the tappet.  Mine were toast.  My shop had just given up on Guzzi a few months before so I did not get a free kit.  Nevertheless, the bike runs like a scalded ape and I love it!

Peter Y.

[pete roper]

I think there is some confusion as well due to people talking about "Adjusting the tappets" on an engine. When setting the valve clearance the measurement is, on an engine like a Guzzi, in between the tip of the valve and the rocker with the adjuster being either on the pushrod end of the rocker like smallblocks and 2V big blocks or on the 8V's on the valve ends of the rockers. The tappets themselves are not involved in the procedure but the adjustment does allow them clearance between themselves and the cam when the tappet is on the base circle of the cam.

The 'Tappets' themselves are also sometimes referred to as 'Cam Followers' and referring to them like this might help avoid confusion but a tappet is a tappet as far as I'm concerned and this leopard is far too old to change his spots! 

Pete

[jim mac]

pulled the cambox on my 2012, 13000 miles Norge today, after eventually working up the nerve to do it - both sides show wear, left much more than right with one tappet having lost 100%, but not much marking on the cam.  Piaggio UK wont pay for it so i will be �750 down


PETE,  I have been trying to pm you but am failing with this new phone. There are drill edits on back of cylinders - I'd this an A kit ?

moral of story - get them checked now !!!!

Left side


right side

[jim mac]

pulled the cambox on my 2012, 13000 miles Norge today, after eventually working up the nerve to do it - both sides show wear, left much more than right with one tappet having lost 100%, but not much marking on the cam.  Piaggio UK wont pay for it so i will be �750 down


PETE,  I have been tryin to pm you but am failing with this new phone. There are drill dots on back of cylinders - is this an A kit ?

moral of story - check them checked now !!!!

Left side


right side

[Wayne Orwig]

PETE,  I have been tryin to pm you but am failing with this new phone. There are drill dots on back of cylinders - is this an A kit ?

Not Pete, but my info indicates that the Norge only ever used an A kit.

But what for Pete to verify that.

[cruzziguzzi]

From those photos? Of course they look fine, so does the crankshaft.

Flat tappets - the "chrome bore" of the modern age.


Seems it's not if but when.

I wonder if Guzzi will warranty my '73 El Dorado bores? This I ask in a flippant, rhetorical yet instructive manner.



Todd.

[pete roper]

Jim, your email bounces.

Yes, AFAIK all Norges are 'A' kit.

Pete

[jim mac]

Thanks all, bit the bullet and ordered  the kit from TLM so should get it all sorted by next weekend

[pete roper]

Don't neglect to drop the sump and give it a good clean.

Pete

[Steph]

I need some help.  I have a 2012 Norge with flat tappets.  I just got my 6K service completed and requested my tappets be inspected/converted to rollers.  My dealer took some pictures and sent them to Moto Guzzi for approval to convert.  Moto Guzzi says my tappets are in great working condition and denied the request to convert.  I don't know what I'm looking at and need ya'lls help figuring this out (especially Pete Roper) as I don't know what I'm looking at.  Hopefully these pictures will make it;






Thanks for all of the help.

This is sicknening, shame on you Piaggio