Crash on Interstate

[pikipiki]

Is it possible on a linked brake system that if the rear wheel bearing goes that the rear wheel will wobble forcing out the rear calipers which forces brake fluid hard and fast to the front caliper momentarily locking the front as the rear kicks to the side throwing you on your face?
just saying because i had something similar on a car when a left front bearing went and the right wheel locked up. Lucky not to roll.

[redrider]

One of the most neglected service items on any vehicle is the brake system. I flush yearly and inspect at every tire change. Glad you are still around.

[sib]

....Just a thought - would ABS have made a difference? Almost certainly not. Traction control?

Beerman

Glad you're still alive.  I would respectfully disagree with the above comment.  This is exactly the situation that ABS is designed to prevent.  As soon as you lock up your front wheel, you lose all control.  If the bike and the locked wheel are pointing even a little off dead straight ahead, you WILL go down.

[Dilliw]

Wow man glad you are all right.  Jeff and Byron will take good care of the bike; they serviced my EVT for years when I lived down that way.  Hopefully Byron will figure out what went wrong (for all of us).

I've lost the front wheel on dirt at only about 35mph but I know how it is.  You are going fine and then the next second your face is sliding on the Earth with no clue as to how it got there.  Unfortunately your section of Earth was paved and moving a lot faster.  Heal up.

 

[Moto]

This is exactly the situation that ABS is designed to prevent.

I agree. It is also exactly the situation the integral (linked) original braking system on the EV was designed to prevent. I suspect this particular EV was de-linked, since the OP referred to actuating the "front brakes," in the plural. In the original system only a single brake is activated by the front lever. The foot pedal activates a single front disk and the rear disk, as pehayes said earlier.

There is nothing more dangerous than overbraking a front tire that is not brought up to temperature by a gradual increase in braking force. The brilliance of the integral system is that the rider can use a more abrupt application of force without putting it all on the front tire too soon (before it heats up) -- that is, if they apply the foot pedal first, and aggressively.  A secondary benefit is that riders who habitually grab the front lever first will have less power at their disposal to lock the wheel, though this is not the optimal way to use the system.

I hope the OP will clarify whether the brakes were delinked, since this information could be helpful to others.

[sib]

...There is nothing more dangerous than overbraking a front tire that is not brought up to temperature by a gradual increase in braking force....

It's not only the tire "being brought up to temperature".  During braking, the effective moving weight of the bike shifts toward the front wheel.  During controlled hard deceleration, the front wheel bears as much as 80% of the full weight of the bike plus rider, which makes it grip the road better and able to brake harder without locking up, than an un-weighted wheel would.  In contrast, if the front wheel is braked suddenly before the weight transfer can occur, it can much more easily lock up and then more easily slide.

[TBShorty]

I had a similar get-off years ago on my brand new kawi. Fractured scapula and cracked ribs.  Couldn't understand why the bars nearly jerked from my hands and the slammed the pavement pretty hard.  I think I was only doing 45 mph.  I went back to the spot a few days later and sure enough there was a groove or crack in the pavement with some little bit of gravel in it.  The skid marks showed that was where the tire began laying rubber down.  Happy you didn't get hurt too badly.  Funny though, while I was in waiting in hospital to see the Doc They brought in a fellow who went down on US 60 on his Harley.  He was riding bare chested with no gear but his engineer boots.  The guy looked like raw hamburger. I was in the bed next to him and he reeked of booze.  Maybe that dulled his pain a bit because he was yakking at me the whole time they were scrubbing and bandaging him.  I told him my helmet and leathers kept me from looking as bad as him.  He called me a pussy and said s--t happens.  I wonder if he's still around?

[steveford]

Scary stuff!!! Glad you're going to be OK   

[johnr]

Not good news swbrenton but thank you for writing it up.

Broken bones equate to a seriously bad 'get off' in my book, as does a face plant!  Scares the bejeezus out of me  that, as I'm an open face man. I think you were unlucky but I suppose it could have been much worse. You could have been hit by someone!

The circumstances worry me a bit too. A front wheel slide is a pretty quick way to exit ones bike as I know from experience (1970s Bridgestone front tire. 1st and last. Never been offed so fast in all my life! ) but I'm worried about the cause.

I hope someone does the fine tooth comb act with your brakes to see if there was a fault, because if there was I for one want to know about it! Frankly I'm hoping they are fine and it was something on the road. 

The comments about de-linking and ABS have been interesting but I don't think they hold any water in this instance.

You have over 100,000 miles up on this bike alone! That makes you a very experienced rider and I don't for a moment believe that such a rider would over brake his front end delinked or not. Or, even if in a neglectful moment he did he would a/ likely have eased off quick enough or b/ at least remembered that he'd done it.

Ergo, either your front wheel went out for some other reason (like yak fat on the road or similar) or, given that you had just applied the brakes, something, at this point unknown, locked them.

In either case I don't believe ABS would have helped.
I wonder, were you on a curve at the time?

Personally I haven't got enough miles up on my own Guzz to be comfortable with the linked brakes yet. In a "STOP RIGHT F******G NOW" situation I still grab the handlebar (front) brake, then follows a period of teeth gritted brow sweating terror while the following goes through my mind. 
"holycrap I haven't got enough brakes oh that's right I'm supposed to use the foot brake too"
Then there is the interminable wait while I get my foot off the board and up onto the brake peddle. Only then do we start to slow down at an acceptable rate.

I think there is room for improvement in this set up.

Thanks again for writing this up. Doing that gives us the opportunity to vicariously learn through others misfortune. It's a good way to do it.

A bit like the pub/campfire tales of "How I crashed and burned and lived to ride again" Such can be the cause of great merriment when properly told (though I realise that is not the intent here)  but they have their purpose and usefulness.
 

[Rough Edge racing]

 The OP mentions nothing about a emergency stopping situation that may have resulted in a skid. We know nothing about his rider skills..I believe no one can make a judgement  without more facts...

[Moto]

The comments about de-linking and ABS have been interesting but I don't think they hold any water in this instance.

You have over 100,000 miles up on this bike alone! That makes you a very experienced rider and I don't for a moment believe that such a rider would over brake his front end delinked or not. Or, even if in a neglectful moment he did he would a/ likely have eased off quick enough or b/ at least remembered that he'd done it.

I've got similar miles of experience, and I've scared myself silly inducing a skid by grabbing the front brake of my old TDM 850 in a panic situation. It's hard to brake with your best technique when you're surprised, I've found. (And I've practiced my technique lots and lots in non-panic situations.)

Personally I haven't got enough miles up on my own Guzz to be comfortable with the linked brakes yet. In a "STOP RIGHT F******G NOW" situation I still grab the handlebar (front) brake, then follows a period of teeth gritted brow sweating terror while the following goes through my mind. 
"holycrap I haven't got enough brakes oh that's right I'm supposed to use the foot brake too"
Then there is the interminable wait while I get my foot off the board and up onto the brake peddle. Only then do we start to slow down at an acceptable rate.

I think there is room for improvement in this set up.

There's room for improvement in your technique! With this system you should apply the foot pedal first. Then you can add the front lever for more power. Using the front lever first doesn't take advantage of the set up at all.

This is my considered opinion, at any rate.

I do hope the OP will provide more details when he's able. I imagine this is something that could have happened to any of us.

Moto

P.S. Thanks, sib, for adding the important point about weight transfer.

[Kentktk]

In either case I don't believe ABS would have helped.



 

Wrong

[canuguzzi]

One of the most neglected service items on any vehicle is the brake system. I flush yearly and inspect at every tire change. Glad you are still around.

 :1: 1000 times.

[Beerman]

Glad you're still alive.  I would respectfully disagree with the above comment.  This is exactly the situation that ABS is designed to prevent.  As soon as you lock up your front wheel, you lose all control.  If the bike and the locked wheel are pointing even a little off dead straight ahead, you WILL go down.

Thanks SIB. I wasn't trying to in anyway suggest that ABS can not be a key safety feature, and thank you - and others - for comment on this point. I was trying to question whether ABS or Traction Control could/should help. My first thought was that because the OP described the action as an immediate reaction with the wheel moving to the right, ABS would not have helped - it didn't sound like the wheel locked. I'd love to be wrong on this, but it would be helpful to understand.

Beerman

[RayB]

Maybe too much of reaction on part of rider gave an inadvertent pull to the right on the bars????

[normzone]

Hey, all else taken into account, final score:

Rider 2, Misfortune 1.

[Trevor G]

.  As soon as you lock up your front wheel, you lose all control.  If the bike and the locked wheel are pointing even a little off dead straight ahead, you WILL go down.

There is almost always some camber involved, and of course the locked wheel goes ever so slightly downhill following the camber until you lose balance.

[swbrenton]

First of all thanks to all who have replied with wishes to get well soon.  I'm working on it.

I am pleased this thread is getting a responsible discussion of 'what-ifs'.  I had posted it to make anyone aware of my misfortune in hopes it may help them in the future avoid similar.  I found an article recently (before the crash) that had been weighing in my mind.  It was in the May 2016 issue of Cycle World, pg 36.  It read "I've really been focused on the first 3 percent and the last 3 percent of my braking."  I had been thinking about this a lot and wondering if I should take away anything from the article.  I like to read and attempt to improve my skills as much as possible, but I could not see the importance of this.  Now I see better. 

As for more detail regarding the conditions:  Time of day was just a little after 12 noon.  Clear sky, clear road, sunny warm about 75F.  The road ahead was straight and level.  I was in the middle lane of a three lane highway with light traffic.  I had just eaten lunch at Chick Fil A, and shortly after arriving in the ER I threw that up (sorry nurse Heather).

I went to Ridge Motorsports today with some buddies and a trailer to retrieve my bike.  I had been told the tow driver started the bike when he had it.  So one of the mechanics at the shop started it and rode it up onto the trailer.  I had a big smile on my face, this is, and has been, one durable bike. 

I will need a new fairing, windshield, front brake lever and mirrors.  The tip over bars, floor boards and saddle bags have road rash but are in working order.  There are two small scrapes to the front fender.  And that's it.  No other visible damage.   I cannot ride yet due to broken bones and generally I'm slow to get things done so I will take my sweet time and go over the bike very carefully.  (I have done all the maintenance on this bike myself) (Except for the camshaft recall, this is a hydraulic lifter engine).

Stephen

[Dilliw]

Steve I think I have the windshield that will fit the stock fairing if you can find one or repair the one you have.  I know I have two of the lollipop mirrors too. 

George

[Rich A]

I think I have a front brake lever, but let's check fitment.

Rich A

[Dilliw]

Is there a skid mark on the right rotor in the picture above?

[swbrenton]

Is there a skid mark on the right rotor in the picture above?

I didn't notice one today while looking over the bike.  I will check closer during teardown and rebuild.

I will probably replace both front rotors just as a precaution anyway.  Those rotors are EBC aftermarket which I installed several years ago.  I give rotors a very important safety rating and since they experienced this recent trauma I think I will just retire them and give the bike brand new ones.  She deserves it.

[brlawson]

Steve,

I have a full EV fairing with short and tall screens if you need.

[johnr]

I've got similar miles of experience, and I've scared myself silly inducing a skid by grabbing the front brake of my old TDM 850 in a panic situation. It's hard to brake with your best technique when you're surprised, I've found. (And I've practiced my technique lots and lots in non-panic situations.)

Interesting Moto. I can honestly say I have never experienced that problem.
(I have experience braking right on that edge though, but with drums anyway, you get sufficient feel for what your tire is doing to control it.)

There's room for improvement in your technique! With this system you should apply the foot pedal first. Then you can add the front lever for more power. Using the front lever first doesn't take advantage of the set up at all.

You are probably right about my technique there Moto. The trouble is I am finding  it difficult to retrain my self after what in reality is only a year of Guzzi riding when stacked against  over 40 years of doing it the other way round. Despite my best efforts to date, my right hand still thinks it's in charge of 80% + of the braking.  I did think of delinking them but I think there might be a better way.

That also doesn't address the time lag. It takes time to translate the recognised need to active application of the foot brake. In  cars that has been measured as 3/4 of a second. How far does one travel in 3/4 of a second at say 70mph? I can't be bothered working it out, but I'm sure that time would be better spent with the brakes applied. 

[johnr]

Wrong

kentktk, this is'nt a simple pol so that won't do. You need reasons behind such an opinion.

At this point of time I am not convinced that the wheel did lock up, or if it did, that it was not caused by something physical (rather than over braking) which would have rendered ABS null and void.

We'll just have to wait and see what the OP comes up with in his postmortem.

I am not however dissing the effectiveness of ABS, it's the kind of thing that I would not mind having but don't feel sufficient need to fit it.

[Darren Williams]

No dog in this fight, but since I have a few different types of bike in the stable, non of which have linked brakes of this type, having to react differently from one bike to another in an emergency/panic situation would be a no go for me.  I'd de-link them.  YMMV

[RayB]

Johnr:
0.75 sec @70mph equates to 77 feet

[Moto]

Interesting Moto. I can honestly say I have never experienced that problem.
(I have experience braking right on that edge though, but with drums anyway, you get sufficient feel for what your tire is doing to control it.)

You are probably right about my technique there Moto. The trouble is I am finding  it difficult to retrain my self after what in reality is only a year of Guzzi riding when stacked against  over 40 years of doing it the other way round. Despite my best efforts to date, my right hand still thinks it's in charge of 80% + of the braking.  I did think of delinking them but I think there might be a better way.

That also doesn't address the time lag. It takes time to translate the recognised need to active application of the foot brake. In  cars that has been measured as 3/4 of a second. How far does one travel in 3/4 of a second at say 70mph? I can't be bothered working it out, but I'm sure that time would be better spent with the brakes applied.

I should say that I haven't locked my brakes at highway speed, just coming to an unexpected downhill stop, at a stop sign that I hadn't seen. I've spent a lot of time bringing my front tire to the howling stage, to judge its lockup threshold. But I do think emergencies are different.

Having to use the foot pedal from a floorboard set up -- so you need to raise your foot to move it to the pedal, if that is what you face -- is a real concern. My T3 has foot pegs, so there is no greater delay than in using the hand lever. For a floorboard set up, one of Honda's systems in which (I recall) the front lever operated the rear disk and one front disk, would be better. This might not be too difficult a change to make on your bike, if you can source the appropriate master cylinders. Maybe you are considering this?

[Moto]

No dog in this fight, but since I have a few different types of bike in the stable, non of which have linked brakes of this type, having to react differently from one bike to another in an emergency/panic situation would be a no go for me.  I'd de-link them.  YMMV

Agreed, this is a bit of a problem, though I've found I can adapt to using different systems better than I first expected. In my case, with only two bikes, my preference would be to link the brakes on my Griso, rather than de-link the ones on my T3. Maybe someday.

I definitely prefer the everyday riding experience of the linked brake system.

[pyoungbl]

Stephen, glad you are still with the living!  I guess you were not towing the trailer this time.  Are you going to have the Roadcrafter repaired or just replaced?  I'm so used to us being in matching gear that I'd hate to see you change, particularly after this testimony to how well the suit works.  Looking at the left knee I can only imagine what would have happened if you were wearing jeans. 

Peter Y.