My V7C has the charm of a carbureted bike

[thepittsburghguzzi]

5,500 miles in, the smiles never really stop. I adore this bike, and have never put on so many miles so quickly. I'm curious about a few things, which have more than likely been discussed at length here, but it's always good to keep things updated as we learn more and more about our lovely Guzzi. 

The single biggest question I have centers around the bike's attitude among startup and the first few minutes of riding. Mine (2012 Classic with 5,500 miles now) acts, to put it simply, like a carbureted motorcycle.

First, with starting. Sometimes it takes embarrassingly long. Other fuel-injected bikes might start within a half-second of pressing the button. Sometimes mine does too, but other times I've got to press it and crank it for quite a while while passerby give me a puzzled look. Why is his shiny fuel-injected Guzzi taking so long to wake up? It seems like she starts quicker when it's really cold outside (never in my life has a vehicle preferred the cold), but it's variable.

The 2012's still had the enricher, and it's a guessing game as to wether or not she wants it upon startup. The gentleman I bought it from advises that it should always be used, but sometimes (I think usually when it's hot outside, above maybe 62 or 63F) it has a harder time starting with the enricher on. Sometimes, it starts cutting in and out while idling with the enricher on until I turn it off completely, only a few seconds later.

Finally, I'm pretty sure I've read a lot of you guys saying the bike really prefers to be warmed up for a few minutes. Absolutely yes here. Mine won't tolerate a quick start-and-go. If I try, she'll buck and get all herky-jerky, as if I was cracking the throttle back and fourth. And if I pull in the clutch, it might stall. I have to pull aside, let it warm up for a few minutes, then she's a happy camper.

Is this the same behavior everyone is experiencing? I am wanting to do a valve adjustment to see if that'll help, and I might throw in a new set of plugs. The owner's manual lists BR9ES, as I understand a cooler-running plug, as an alternate to the standard BR8ES... has anyone tried this, just out of curiosity?

Thanks for any advice... just seems like my girl is a little cold-blooded, but once she's warmed up, she's nothing but love.

[vstevens]

Very nice V7!  Yes. My 2013 V7 stone prefers a minute to warm up.  Don't know why, though I've read posts here from many guzzi faithful speculating about it.  I think it was Pete Roper that recommended letting the bike warm up for about 10 or so minutes.  Something about a heat sensor on the throttle bodies needing to be set.  Anyway, I did that and now my bike only needs a minute to warm up while I put on jacket and gear.  It's never stalled or lurched after a one minute warmup or after a hot start. 

The more miles you put on the V7, the better it gets. 😊

[timonbik]

You described my Breva 750 to a "T".  Acts like a carbed  bike.  You will likely experience hard starts after sitting in the sun on a hot day, especially if the tank is more full than empty.  Has to do with vapours collecting in the canister. Others have experienced similar issue on their small blocks.  After a couple of months you will begin to understand all of your bikes "quirks".  It sure isn't a Honda!!!!
Cheers,  Tim

[oldbike54]

 The device in question is merely a fast idle lever . Yeah I know , pedantic 

 Dusty

[thepittsburghguzzi]

Dusty - does it do anything other than manually open the throttle slightly more? Like, send the ECU a message or anything? Or does it just hold the throttle open a tad more?

timonbik - Quirks aplenty! It's impossible not to love the bike anyhow :P

vstevens - Anything more in-depth about this heat sensor (or anyone else?) Curious to know if mine needs to be reset?

[oldbike54]

 I think it just opens the throttle . Pete or one of our small block gurus speak up here .

 Dusty

[Kev m]

It's not pedantic, it's actually pretty important to the discussion.

It doesn't ENRICHEN the air/fuel mixture per se (except that opening the throttle lets in more air and the ECU does introduce more fuel when you've got more air, still the RATIO is predetermined by the air temp/engine temp and startup mapping).

Now couple of related things:

* Every 2TB smallblock I've heard of is a little troublesome on cold starts.

* Similarly, my Cali Jackal (a 2TB big block with a fast idle lever) ALWAYS needed the fast idle lever for a cold start AND I USED TO DO SOMETHING ELSE. I'd set the fast idle lever, and grab the right throttle grip and open it a LITTLE BIT MORE and it would fire RIGHT UP. The additional air/fuel was just perfect for that motor, and the fast idle lever KEPT IT RUNNING ONCE IT STARTED.

Now 1TB smallblocks are fussy on cold starts too and it MAY be for some related mechanical reasons with regards to cold combustion in the smallblock heron head, but since there's an IAC valve and no fast idle lever I wouldn't go comparing the two.

And NO, this isn't even REMOTELY like the "charm" of a cranky carburetor.

[Kev m]

PS - in case anyone is interested. Let me explain why a Fast Idle Lever is COMPLETELY different from a Choke OR enrichener.

A Fast Idle Lever SIMPLY allows more air because a cold motor doesn't idle well at slow speeds. The fast idle allows the motor to warm up quicker and run smoother as the combustion chambers are coming up to temperature. The air/fuel ratio is still completely controlled by the ECU.

A CHOKE physically blocks incoming air on a carburetor in order to increase the air/fuel ratio.

An ENRICHENER allows the same amount of incoming air, but adds ANOTHER passage from the carburetor float bowl for the venturi effect to draw additional fuel, AGAIN in order to increase the air/fuel ratio.

So Choke or Enrichener both increase air/fuel ratio - one by choking or blocking air, the other by adding more fuel.

But a Fast Idle Lever does NOT change the air/fuel ratio - it simply holds the throttle open a bit more.

That make sense? Once you understand that you understand a lot more about how to start a motor with any of these things.

To make matters even MORE complicated, some EFI Ducatis contained a Fast Idle Lever that operated in exactly that way but it was CRITICALLY important NOT to open the lever BEFORE turning on the ignition key. The REASON - because EACH TIME the ECU was powered up it relearned the TPS idle/throttle closed position. IF you opened the Fast Idle Lever (opening the throttle) BEFORE the ECU was powered up it would learn a partially opened throttle as idle, meaning it would under-fuel the whole way up the throttle position always thinking the throttle wasn't quite as open as it really was.

[thepittsburghguzzi]

Thanks for the clarity, Kev 

It's currently 61F and sunny in Pgh (wow, rare elusive Pgh sun), cool air but warm sun. So we'll see what method it takes to start her up this morning 

I may try using the fast-idle lever with maybe 1/8 or so throttle like you described with your Jackal.

[Penderic]

I have the two TB unit V7C with the Marelli 15rc ECU - 2009

Same cold start problems as yours.

Reflashed the ECU using GuzziDiag program, - reused my original map that then I modified with a slight increase in fuel pulse duration in the START map (I think it was 5% or something like that), fixed the cold start stumble completely.

The START map is used for the first minute of running every time the ignition is turned on. It modifies the main fueling map, which I left alone, just enough to eliminate any cold stumbling.

I can start the bike and ride off immediately with no drama, no worries when the temperature is as low as 40degreesF.

I did this a few years ago and forgot about the software details but there is info here on the forum on how to do it. Best to find a owner close by that has done it recently and can help with the cheap finiky usb cable dongle that is required.

[v65tt]

I have the two TB unit V7C with the Marelli 15rc ECU - 2009

Same cold start problems as yours.

Reflashed the ECU using GuzziDiag program, - reused my original map that then I modified with a slight increase in fuel pulse duration in the START map (I think it was 5% or something like that), fixed the cold start stumble completely.

The START map is used for the first minute of running every time the ignition is turned on. It modifies the main fueling map, which I left alone, just enough to eliminate any cold stumbling.

I can start the bike and ride off immediately with no drama, no worries when the temperature is as low as 40degreesF.

I did this a few years ago and forgot about the software details but there is info here on the forum on how to do it. Best to find a owner close by that has done it recently and can help with the cheap finiky usb cable dongle that is required.

Now Penderic thats a gorgeous V7, stunning


so dare is day that my V7 engine with carburettors starts and runs from cold perfectly...

[sign216]

For hot starts, hold the throttle about 1/2 to 3/4 open.  It should start right away then.

As for cold starts, yep, many have reported the problem.  There's a drill that helps (for older 2 TB engines), I forget what it is, but it's something like: crank it with the throttle wide open, stop, then re-crank with the throttle closed + fast idle lever set.  It should start up then.  Others, am remembering the starting drill correctly?

I usually start it and let it run while I put on my gloves and helmet, but that time it's road-ready.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I'd set the fast idle lever, and grab the right throttle grip and open it a LITTLE BIT MORE and it would fire RIGHT UP.

On my Centauro.. I know.. apples and oranges.. you could crank it until the cows come home without it firing a lick..UNLESS.. you opened the throttle just so, and it would start right up. Hot or cold, didn't matter.

[thepittsburghguzzi]

Welp. It's sunny and pretty warm out by now. Attempted a cold start without the fast idle lever pulled, no dice after probably four seconds of cranking. Opened the fast idle, and gave it maybe 1/8 throttle, started up in maybe two seconds. Always a guessing game with my Scarlet. 

I'm proud to say that she always does end up starting, so no big worries. Quirks, charm, whatever you call it, Guzzi got it 

[Kev m]

On my Centauro.. I know.. apples and oranges.. you could crank it until the cows come home without it firing a lick..UNLESS.. you opened the throttle just so, and it would start right up. Hot or cold, didn't matter.

and

Welp. It's sunny and pretty warm out by now. Attempted a cold start without the fast idle lever pulled, no dice after probably four seconds of cranking. Opened the fast idle, and gave it maybe 1/8 throttle, started up in maybe two seconds. Always a guessing game with my Scarlet. 

I'm proud to say that she always does end up starting, so no big worries. Quirks, charm, whatever you call it, Guzzi got it 

My Jackal could be temperamental or at least unpredictable, UNLESS I followed that procedure - lever on, partial twist of throttle, and crank. If I followed that procedure - HOT OR COLD, it started right up immediately.

[Lcarlson]

The fast idle lever on my Beemer is a little sticky, so I don't use it. I just hit the starter and gently roll on the throttle, and hold at about 2000 rpm for twenty seconds after it starts. Don't know if this would work with a Guzzi, but it'd be easy to find out.

[timonbik]

My Breva 750 is the same.  Fast idle cable needs replacing so if it is cold I just give it about 1/4 throttle, hit the starter bottom and she usually fires up.  Hold the revs up for a minute or so and she is ready to go.  Hot I just barely crack the throttle.

[guzzipete]

Here is what I did to help reduce the cold start issues with my 2009 V7C,

1 If your state does not require a DEQ inspection, remove the evap canister. The canister is connected to the intake runners for each cylinder. Remove those hoses and either cap the nipples or run a piece of tubing to connect them together. I ran the tube.

2. I installed an intake air temp spoofer. It makes the computer think the ambient air temp is cooler than it really is so the computer will fatten up the mixture. Fuel mileage did not change.

I made those mods over 4 years ago and I have had no problems. I never use the fast idle lever. I open the throttle about a 1/4 and hit the starter button. Engine starts right up and settles into a 1K idle.

I let the bike idle while I put non my helmet and gloves, and then I'm off.

[Muzz]

2003 Breva.

DON"T touch the throttle. If it does not start in the first two seconds stop, let everything do it's St Vitus's dance and hit button A again. It will start straight away. Then and only then use the throttle. Set the fast idler while the helmet is done up and the gloves go on. Good to go.

It may do the odd lurch as the ECU goes from open to closed, but even that is pretty minimal.

[Zoom Zoom]

On my Centauro.. I know.. apples and oranges.. you could crank it until the cows come home without it firing a lick..UNLESS.. you opened the throttle just so, and it would start right up. Hot or cold, didn't matter.

That was always my observation as well. Cali, Norge, LeMans. I refer to it as "tickling" the throttle. It seems to work on the Stelvio as well. Just let warm for a few seconds after it starts. The 1400, OTOH, I press the button and it starts. No tickling required.

John Henry

[sign216]

2003 Breva.

DON"T touch the throttle. If it does not start in the first two seconds stop, let everything do it's St Vitus's dance and hit button A again. It will start straight away. Then and only then use the throttle. Set the fast idler while the helmet is done up and the gloves go on. Good to go.

It may do the odd lurch as the ECU goes from open to closed, but even that is pretty minimal.

Muzz, you've got a world of smallblock experience, and you're saying to keep the throttle all the way down when starting?  Not to use the fast idle lever until it's already started?

[ClassicV7]

Nice V7, have the same one (don't see too many in red). I usually set the fast idle regardless of outside temp, start it up, let it run a minute tops and go. After riding a 1/2 mile or so, turn off the fast idle and never have/had and issues in all these years.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Oh.. forgot.. if it had the charm of a "properly" carbureted bike, it would start faster than an injected version. (Beetle content) <grin> emoticons aren't working with Chrome again.

[thepittsburghguzzi]

Outstanding! Apparently you and I have two of only 24 of these Ibis Red 2012's in the US. Yours is lovely, and I really want that rear rack.. May very well be my next addition.


 

Nice V7, have the same one (don't see too many in red). I usually set the fast idle regardless of outside temp, start it up, let it run a minute tops and go. After riding a 1/2 mile or so, turn off the fast idle and never have/had and issues in all these years.

[ClassicV7]

Cool. Never knew there were so few in Ibis. Where'd you get that stat from? The rear rack is awesome, I use it often. Only thing I added has been Dart / Marlin flyscreen (pics of my bike are featured on their site - http://www.dartflyscreens.co.uk/products/moto-guzzi-v7-marlin).

All in all V7 has been problem free, a blast to own and I will likely never part with it (especially since I have an RT for longer trips and riding two up w/ the wife).. 



 

[Muzz]

Muzz, you've got a world of smallblock experience, and you're saying to keep the throttle all the way down when starting?  Not to use the fast idle lever until it's already started?

Correct

I will edit that to say that is my bike's way of doing it. The salesman who sold it to me stressed that method. Have tried using throttle etc but it tends to fluff out if I do that.

Pete Roper put his machine on it when he was over some time back and other than a wee tweak to compensate for an older air filter it read spot on. The engine has always felt real smooth all through the range. Pete's tweak did give a 5% increase in economy.

[thepittsburghguzzi]

Phil at Cleveland Moto informed me of the rarity of the Ibis. He and someone else from either his dealer or another dealer recall that in 2012, Guzzi shipped 1 box, or 48 total V7 Classics to the US, half of which were Ibis w/ gold emblems and the other half were black w/ gold emblems. Just like you, I plan on holding onto mine forever.

Cool. Never knew there were so few in Ibis. Where'd you get that stat from? The rear rack is awesome, I use it often. Only thing I added has been Dart / Marlin flyscreen (pics of my bike are featured on their site - http://www.dartflyscreens.co.uk/products/moto-guzzi-v7-marlin).

All in all V7 has been problem free, a blast to own and I will likely never part with it (especially since I have an RT for longer trips and riding two up w/ the wife)..

[Tkelly]

our 13 v7 had this problem until dealer installed new map.runs much better now.

[Steph]

Which carburettor charm are you referring to? The cold non-idling one, out of sync idle one, out of sync cable pull one, wrong jetting one, wrong float height one, leaking bowl one or stuck wide open one?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well, there *are* those charms.. <smile>