lucydad - geology question

[red2002]

lucydad,

New guy here (no Guzzis, but been riding for 47 years), with a really NGC question.

If you would be so kind as to don your geologist's hat for just a moment......

Is is possible to see the K-T (K-pg) layer in Ohio? I live along the east-central Ohio Valley; the river itself is ~600' above sea level and the adjoining hilltops are 500' - 600' higher. There are many strata visible in the tall highway cuts, so many million years are exposed.

From what I understand, Ohio was high and dry 60+ million years ago and not part of the inland sea.

This stuff fascinates me and I've worn out Google in trying to find an answer. I'd greatly appreciate any direction you could give me in finding reference material about the K-T in Ohio. Our sons live in Colorado and I understand there are sites out there where it's really easy to see.

Now: what I'm rambling on about with the K-T stuff is that when the dinosaur-killing meteor hit down around Cancun, it raised a global dust cloud and when the dust settled, it left a deposit that can be seen in the rock layers, if you know where to look.

WG is a great site and I've been lurking for several years now.

Carried on an e-mail conversation with a member called DesmoHead (Bruce R.) a few years ago, but he's fallen off the radar. He had a whole bunch of interesting bikes, Ducs, Guzzis and more. Anybody know how he is?

Thank you,

Mike

[oldbike54]

 Interesting first post Mike , I think  Rodekyll might also have some insight .

 Greg , here is a chance to show us watcha know 



 Dusty

[cbxtc6]

I am not a geologist, but I am a scientist, so will give my .02

I believe most Cretaceous rocks in OH have been eroded away, so no K-T boundry layer in OH today.

[rodekyll]

I'm more coastal and northern geology -- outbound from the cratons.  Don't know Ohio beyond general classes.  LD is the better choice.

[Doppelgaenger]

This is a question I had as well a while back, I live in WA and was trying to find a place where I could see it locally.. but no such luck. From what I was able to find, this is the only place you're guaranteed to be able to just walk up to the boundary on public lands

http://coloradogeologicalsurvey.org/colorado-geology/colorado-points-of-geological-interest/pogi-interactive-map/huerfano-and-las-animas/trinidad-lake-state-park

[red2002]

Everyone,

Appreciate the comments.

Doppelgaenger, glad to know I'm not the only one that has found interest in this. We may trek over that way next time we're visiting the boys in Colorado. Thanks for the link.

rodekyll, Thanks, just learned a new word, "cratons."

cbxtc6, Ohio's weather over 60 million years would have a tendency to wear things down. I believe I read somewhere that the K-T layer was actually discovered in Ohio, albeit in a cave. I'll have to try to find that article again.

oldbike54, Well, that stuff is interesting if you're a little cross-threaded, like I am.....

Mike

[Guido Valvole]

Want to learn new geological words? "Annals of the Former World" by John McPhee. Actually five books in one, crossing the United States, with forays into history and culture. A bit dated scientifically in spots but excellent writing. Possible touring routes included, just be careful if you're easily distracted by road cuts.
cr

[oldbike54]

 Hell , some of us are British Cycle thread  Geology is cool 

 Dusty

[lucydad]

Mike,

To my knowledge:  no dice on K-T boundary in Ohio.  Here is one way to be sure:  Google a surface geology map of the state.  If there is no upper Cretaceous outcrop:  forget it.  What you will find are Paleozoics.  Note Ohio was a huge petroleum resource, with trap on the famous Findlay arch.  My old employer, "The Ohio" aka Marathon started in Findlay in 1887.

https://www.google.com/search?q=surface+geology+map+ohio&biw=1366&bih=728&site=webhp&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNv-KtjZnNAhUl64MKHQ7QC0UQsAQINQ

Yes, I have put my finger exactly on the boundary in NM, CO and WY.  Near Lamar, CO there is an amazing outcrop showing the very end of the dinosaur era, a huge dead zone, and then early Tertiary repopulation by flowering plants, and a low diversity of animals.  Dinosaurs, unfortunately died out due to the world wide catastrophic heat/secondary bombardment, and several hundreds of years nuclear winter from the dust, etc.

https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1987/0606/report.pdf

In the Gulf of Mexico, subsea, the tsunami record of the Chixclub impact is stunning.  Well cores show the event very clearly, and there is a research well being drilled on the crater as we type. 

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/05/scientists-hit-pay-dirt-drilling-dinosaur-killing-impact-crater

Note that the earth has had many, many similar extinction events.  In fact, every geological time "period" is actually a biotic extinction.  The Permian extinction makes the K-T one look tame by comparison.  Just about all life on earth expired.  Major petroleum source shale beds often correlate with extinction events:  all the algae die, and fall to seafloor, and then with time turn to petroleum.

Want more?  Let me know.  Somewhere in the garage I have a rock sample showing the K-T boundary from Colorado.

Science is good.   Geology is fascinating!

[Penderic]

Is this a test?  What killed the dinosaurs?

Shooting stars!




 

[red2002]

Guido Valvole, just ordered the book at the local library! Interestingly, it looks like his travels took him really close to where I live. 650 pages should keep me busy, for a while. Thank you.

lucydad, thanks very much for the treasure-trove of information! I had read about the drilling at the impact site but had not seen that they had progressed so well.

As you know, the east-central part of Ohio is in an oil and gas shale boom. The activity around here has been incredible. One well, I'm told, took 73 semi-trailer loads of equipment to complete.

A high school friend of mine who became a petroleum engineer told me over 40 years ago that there were "eons" of oil under our Ohio Valley soil, if someone could figure out how to extract it. Our rocks' permeability was measured in millidarcies, as opposed to Saudi Arabia's free-flowing sand.

Well, the fracking boom figured that out and the place is crawling with activity. Oil/gas rights are leasing for over $7k per acre.

I visited the incredible Barringer crater in Arizona a few years ago and the rock that hit it was a mere pebble compared to the one that hit the Yucat�n. At ~6 miles long, when the tip of it first contacted the surface of the earth, the other end was still about a mile higher than the summit of Mt Everest!

A sample of the K-T from Colorado? Wow. Incredible to hold it in your hand and consider where its origin. Tell me more, please.

Penderic, are you into astronomy?

Mike

[lucydad]

Mike,

This link shows the Raton Basin locality of the KT boundary.  This is where I grabbed a sample.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5866710/a-travel-guide-to-prehistoric-places-in-north-america

I will look in the garage.  Not very dazzling, just a dense, black mudstone, but microscopic examination shows glass spherules, and chromatography reveals the Iridium heavy metal.  Iridium is from the original meteorite, and glass from heat vaporized sediments.  Good KT outcrops inevitably show lots of sampling by geologists just above and below.  Look for one inch core holes:  samples for precise dating.

Must have been a really bad day.  Amazingly birds survived, and they are related to dinosaurs.  Scavenged and very mobile critters. 
By the way, Italy has some superb KT boundary outcrops.  Alvarez, the geoscientist that proposed the impact demise of dinosaurs, did a lot of his original sampling there.  Best preservation is in marine conditions, at least 2000 miles from Chixclub impact.  Might have been some smaller hits from a possible swarm. 

Sooner or later humanity will deal with a significant impact.  In the wrong place, even a 100 meter diameter meteorite would be pretty devastating. Closing speeds are in miles/second.  Energy created is unbelievable.

[oldbike54]

 5 mass extinctions so far on planet earth , and science says we are in the 6th . It would seem that mass extinctions are a part of the natural order , necessary maybe to the health of the planet . Dunno , it is all so far beyond my comprehension , but considering that all life sprang from star dust , is it possible that W/O a reset every now and then life would cease ? Could this be what happened to Mars , where there is more and more evidence that life at a very basic level existed at one time . Or could it be that Mars suffered such a catastrophic hit that life could not redevelop . Any thought from one of you smart guys ? And what about this multiverse thing . Oh hell , now my head hurts

 Dusty

[PJPR01]

As long as the Yellowstone caldera doesn't erupt as we are going thru it on the way to John Day or within 1000 miles of it...I'll be happy.  If that event triggers in our lifetime, our motorcycling days as we know it may be over...going to be tough to clean out the air filter with all of that ash in the air!

 

[Guzzistajohn]

Interesting read guys, thanks!

[toaster404]

Simplified map:  http://www.bereasandstonecores.com/geology.php  K/T boundary is pretty young.  Finding something other than a discontinuity in the section proves demanding.

Much easier to look for other cool things.  In Ohio, I'd be looking at glacial geology.  Actually, I will likely be in Ohio within a week, and will be doing precisely that, from a car.  Moraines, outwash plains, maybe an esker or something cool.  Eratics.  Whatever. 

Also of interest are dings from rocks hitting us.  I drive by the Kentland Dome, see http://legacy.earlham.edu/~scottna/graphics/IndRockMAP.jpg, very nice ding.  Have been in there once.  Have samples here now.  Polymictic injection breccia, shatter cones, all the good stuff.  Might see if they'll let me in to poke around.  We have a good hole nearby, Middlesboro, KY, which is a nice circular splat mark.

But really, hunting fossils and looking at glacial stuff will the fun in Ohio.  I like looking up various field guides.  Here's one: http://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/54931/OAS_fld_trp_April2001.pdf?sequence=1  I'm lucky my wife's eyes don't glaze over.  She'll even go fossil hunting, and doesn't find it odd when I'm talking to erratics about their origins and long journey.  There's a wonderful till stone just across the street from her parents' place I'll go say hi to.  Give it a hug.

[SmithSwede]

K-T extinction gets most of the attention because it took out the dramatic dinosaurs.  Although we do still have flying dinosaur birds. 

But the Permian–Triassic extinction was when Death was really working overtime.  Wiped out 95+% of marine species.  Even caused mass extinctions of insects!  Don't think that has happened before or since.

I used to think that dinosaurs would not be able to exist nowadays even if K-T hasn't gotten them because our current oxygen levels are too low.   But apparently there are some amber studies refuting the "high oxygen" theory. 

Gotta say this is a weird motorcycle forum!

[Penderic]

Astronomy is inspiring /scary. I do think about it.

The scale of the universe makes our existence look like small potatoes.

Except for that little detail of being the only location known with living stuff crawling all over it. (and that will be a very important event if proven otherwise!)

Geology is fascinating too. Unfathomable numbers of years and events that have never been imagined until recently.

Put em together and you get the new field of Extra Terrestrial Geological Studies! Beam me up, Dusty!

[Chuck in Indiana]

As long as the Yellowstone caldera doesn't erupt as we are going thru it on the way to John Day or within 1000 miles of it...I'll be happy.  If that event triggers in our lifetime, our motorcycling days as we know it may be over...going to be tough to clean out the air filter with all of that ash in the air!

 

If that event happens in our lifetime, our motorcycling days will be over all right.  <understatement> 

[Nic in Western NYS]

This chart shows marine extinction events by period: y.svg" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Extinction_intensit y.svg

Author of a study in Nature discussing risks of an impending marine extinction event in our Anthropocene period:  http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/16/science/earth/study-raises-alarm-for-health-of-ocean-life.html

[mtiberio]

I am a geologist, and while I haven't read all the posts in this thread, I'm pretty sure a geologial map of ohio would tell you what you want.

[red2002]

Great conversation, everyone. Thanks for your links and insight.

I have a child-like fascination for stuff like this (although my wife testifies that my child-like behavior is not limited to just this).

We live in the unglaciated (boondocks) part of Ohio and there's a profound difference in the terrain as you travel west.

Visit Kelley's Island in Lake Erie to see gouges left in sandstone by the glacier's movement: http://parks.ohiodnr.gov/kelleysisland

The terminal moraine becomes noticeable just southwest of Columbus, with rocks strewn across fields.

An ancient impact crater is located just outside Chillocothe, at the site of the Great Serpent mound. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_Mound

I'll be making the trip to western Colorado to see the K-T layer; it's irresistible!

To me, the most profound image ever made was the "Pale Blue Dot," Earth, as seen by the Voyager 1 spacecraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_Blue_Dot

"From this distant vantage point, the Earth might not seem of any particular interest. But for us, it's different. Consider again that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there � on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam."
- Carl Sagan

Again, thanks for your comments and contributions.

Mike

[lucydad]

Dusty--brief comment on life on Mars.  In my opinion:  when a geologist gets to the right outcrop, the fossils will be found.  Likely small and fairly primitive, maybe only bacterial mats.  Mars was very wet early on.  As Mars lost its liquid interior and magnetic field the sun tore off the atmosphere.  Currently I think the frozen, now buried by dust,  oceans are supporting life that is exhaling methane anomalies that are seasonal. 

Life is everywhere in the Universe, that is my thinking.  Europa will be a real eye opener, if we live long enough to see a mission.

[vstevens]

Dusty--brief comment on life on Mars.  In my opinion:  when a geologist gets to the right outcrop, the fossils will be found.  Likely small and fairly primitive, maybe only bacterial mats.  Mars was very wet early on.  As Mars lost its liquid interior and magnetic field the sun tore off the atmosphere.  Currently I think the frozen, now buried by dust,  oceans are supporting life that is exhaling methane anomalies that are seasonal. 

Life is everywhere in the Universe, that is my thinking.  Europa will be a real eye opener, if we live long enough to see a mission.

Given that Archaea extremophiles are proliferating in sulfurous pools and near deep ocean thermal vents, strange life forms like the symbiotic tube worms .... It isn't so hard to imagine life on/in Europa's ice covered oceans or Mars' dusty, rock strewn surface.  Not everything requires oxygen for cellular respiration.

[oldbike54]

 Just my opinion , but yes , life is everywhere in the universe . I simply can't believe that we are it , would be like ants in a colony somewhere remote believing they are the only ants on the planet .
My question  re the five great extinctions is a simple one , are the extinctions necessary for the health of Earth , kind of a rest period  ?

 Dusty

[sib]

Well, given that there is no information to be had, life may exist everywhere or only on Earth.  I do believe we could have an answer within our lifetimes, it will be interesting.  In the meantime, I'll keep filling my dinosaur feeders and eating the occasional dinosaur Mcnuggets.

[lucydad]

Dusty asked:  are extinctions a necessary rest period for earth's organisms and otherwise global environment?

Just an opinion, but yes.  Each big event has provided space for enormous later diversity.  Dinosaurs gave way to large plains mammals and birds. The Cambrian explosion likely occurred due to a big shift in ocean chemistry and probably atmospheric composition. I personally think solar output and storms have contributed also.  Sun burps and planets get fried with particles:  big extinctions.  Plate tectonics has driven world wide climate, so has volcanic activity:  huge impact on animals and plants also. 

Science continues to learn.  The theories have evolved.  Could be mankind is just a brief passing phase.

[oldbike54]

 Greg , most likely we are just a blip . When we consider that Neanderthals had a much longer run than we've had so far , our arrogance is greatly misplaced . Of course Neanderthals were fully human, even having a larger cranial capacity than modern man , but for whatever reasons they are no longer with us , well except for the insurance company spokes person , and I believe he may be, er , a fake  The little "almost a mammal/almost an amphibian" underground dweller that managed to survive a couple of extinctions could be said to be the most successful creature ever.  Or maybe that title should be bestowed on Crocs , alligators , sharks , birds , or the once land dwelling inhabitants of the ocean that decided to return to the welcoming arms of mother ocean . They looked around one day and said ,"meh , it's either too hot , to cold , too wet , too dry, and what about those pesky insects , which were apparently MUCH larger a few million years ago , and said , enough is enough" 

 Dusty

[toaster404]

Greg , most likely we are just a blip . When we consider that Neanderthals had a much longer run than we've had so far , our arrogance is greatly misplaced . Of course Neanderthals were fully human, even having a larger cranial capacity than modern man , but for whatever reasons they are no longer with us , well except for the insurance company spokes person , and I believe he may be, er , a fake  The little "almost a mammal/almost an amphibian" underground dweller that managed to survive a couple of extinctions could be said to be the most successful creature ever.  Or maybe that title should be bestowed on Crocs , alligators , sharks , birds , or the once land dwelling inhabitants of the ocean that decided to return to the welcoming arms of mother ocean . They looked around one day and said ,"meh , it's either too hot , to cold , too wet , too dry, and what about those pesky insects , which were apparently MUCH larger a few million years ago , and said , enough is enough" 

 Dusty

Homo erectus is the big swing character.  He arrives, the megafauna goes.  Lasted a very very long time.  Lots of impressive stuff.  I've run across tools everywhere I've worked, except in N. America, and I have some suspicion that I might have seen some, but know enough to keep my mouth shut.  We'll find erectus here eventually, I'm pretty sure.  Worked on an elephant kill site once, nicely precise brutality by these folks!!! 

Geology is very fun.  I had one career in geology, before this one.