linked brakes?

[Dukedesmo]

On the Honda system ('98 VFR) when you pull the front lever you get all the pistons on both front discs and just a wee bit of rear. If you hit the pedal you get all the rear pistons and one  set of pistons on one of the front discs, which for normal sport bike/track day riding is invisible/acceptable.

Had the Guzzi system been like this I would have persevered with it, what concerned me was the lack of braking from the front lever - the rear activating at the same time could be a good thing in most circumstances.

Of course de-linked one can choose how much of each to apply...

[Two Checks]

How does engine brakine create clutch wear? The clutch is ENGAGED.

[rodekyll]

No...it's an opinion.

Most nonsense IS opinion.   


There are a lot of things that happen at the factory that don't lend themselves to "sportish" riding.  Linked brakes may be one.  Floorboards, big fairings, wide bags, stereos and pillions might be others.  So what? 

[Arizona Wayne]

Part of what I like about Guzzi linked brakes is that when you go into a corner too hot and hit the brakes, the front end doesn't take a nose dive, the whole bike just squats down and stays on your line.  And it's about impossible to lock up the rear tire, so that's where it's like ABS.

Dr. John was racing endurance races, not flat out speed races.

[Guzzistajohn]

I can see if a guy that's had a bunch of track time might have a different opinion about linked brakes. I get that. I don't ride that aggressively, in fact that old Kirby guy dusted me riding my bike, with linked brakes! I know my limits and I stay within them. I like to stay out of the hospital, there are sick people in those places!

[Triple Jim]

How does engine brakine create clutch wear? The clutch is ENGAGED.

Obviously it doesn't while the clutch is engaged, but charlie b. mentioned slipping the clutch a lot when bringing the engine up to speed during engine braking to keep things smooth.  An alternative is to blip the throttle to match the engine speed to the transmission input shaft speed before letting out the clutch, but that's rarely done perfectly.  I'd rather just use the brakes and save the clutch.

[Arizona Wayne]

Obviously it doesn't while the clutch is engaged, but charlie b. mentioned slipping the clutch a lot when bringing the engine up to speed during engine braking to keep things smooth.  An alternative is to blip the throttle to match the engine speed to the transmission input shaft speed before letting out the clutch, but that's rarely done perfectly.  I'd rather just use the brakes and save the clutch.

My `91 Suzuki VX800 has a slipper clutch to do that for you unconsciously. I never slip the clutch on my Guzzis except when coming off the line.   They're not made for that like a multi-plate wet clutch.

In fact the 1st time I rode a Guzzi(CX100) the clutch was so different than all the Jap. bikes I had ridden I wasn't sure I wanted to go down that road.  I did learn to slowly let the Guzzi clutch lever out when down shifing or it would chirp the rear tire when suddenly engaging.

Far as not using the motor for slowing down, that's crazy.  As long as you don't do it too long (say below 3K rpm) it won't hurt your clutch at all.....or blip the throttle, like what you had to do on a stick shift w/o synchros.

[lucky phil]

This is nonsense. At least one national championship was won by Dr. John's linked-brake Guzzi racer. All three brakes were linked into a single system. (Oh, my!)

Moto

Yes and real championships ( read WORLD championships) have been won with bikes that had anti dive systems on the forks until they realised they were rubbish.

Ciao

[rodekyll]

Careful there -- your snob is showing.

[lucky phil]

Careful there -- your snob is showing.

No snob about it, US championships the same as Australian championships currently and for some time have been second tier even at national level.
Ciao

[Arizona Wayne]

No snob about it, US championships the same as Australian championships currently and for some time have been second tier even at national level.
Ciao

Second tier to what?   MotoGP..........whe re the bikes are far more non production and they are allowed many more modifications?   Even then the GP bikes aren't that much faster then the modified production bikes on the same tracks.

[rodekyll]

But the topic is about the pros and cons of linked brakes in the everyday riding that we all do, not superbike championship circuits, which none of us do.  All right.  Some superbikers don't like linked brakes.  Since everyone here does about 100% of their riding not on closed racetracks, why do we care?

[lucky phil]

Second tier to what?   MotoGP..........whe re the bikes are far more non production and they are allowed many more modifications?   Even then the GP bikes aren't that much faster then the modified production bikes on the same tracks.

Have a look at my post it read National championship, MotoGP isn't a national championship its and INternational championship.
Second rate to at least the German,Spanish and British championships.
The only Europeans that come over to race in the US championships now are the washed up ones and come over for the payola and no stress racing.
Still ahead of us though as we attract NO internationals.
Ciao

[lucky phil]

But the topic is about the pros and cons of linked brakes in the everyday riding that we all do, not superbike championship circuits, which none of us do.  All right.  Some superbikers don't like linked brakes.  Since everyone here does about 100% of their riding not on closed racetracks, why do we care?

Correct, not about superbike championships, but you miss the point, even on public roads linked brakes are rubbish on a modern superbike, hell even on my V11 sport they would be crap.
Thats why nobody has them on a modern superbike because they are useless all round.
Its not about what you like but about what dynamics work with sports bikes or even sports tourers.
Look at the back brake of a modern showroom sports bike, tiny little 190mm disk and 2 piston caliper, the rear brakes not there to provide stopping power let alone get linked to the front brakes.

Ciao   

[rodekyll]

No, I think you missed the point.  Nobody here has a modern superbike.  We're on guzzis.  We're average people riding average bikes, on average roads, averagely.  And in that context linked brakesare being compared and discussed as personal choices.  None of that superbike horseshit applies to us.  Your only reason to keep on and on and on and on and on about it is to demonstrate your snobbery.  So give it a rest already.

[lucky phil]

No, I think you missed the point.  Nobody here has a modern superbike.  We're on guzzis.  We're average people riding average bikes, on average roads, averagely.  And in that context linked brakesare being compared and discussed as personal choices.  None of that superbike horseshit applies to us.  Your only reason to keep on and on and on and on and on about it is to demonstrate your snobbery.  So give it a rest already.

I would have defined the term snobbery as someone that somehow decides they speak for others. As for Superbikes, what nobody here owns an MGS01 a Grisso a V11 sport in all its forms? I would call them all sports/superbikes.
As for me well I'm here and I have a Ducati1000ss, an 1198 Ducati a GSXR1000 track bike a Ducati ST2 and the old V11. So you certainly don't speak for me.
 
Ciao

[Arizona Wayne]

No, I think you missed the point.  Nobody here has a modern superbike.  We're on guzzis.  We're average people riding average bikes, on average roads, averagely.  And in that context linked brakesare being compared and discussed as personal choices.  None of that superbike horseshit applies to us.  Your only reason to keep on and on and on and on and on about it is to demonstrate your snobbery.  So give it a rest already.

Exactly........no one here is comparing MG to Ducati or any other real serious  racing brands.   We're old street riders, that's it.   You have plenty of other forums to disagree with if that's what you want.

[Arizona Wayne]

Have a look at my post it read National championship, MotoGP isn't a national championship its and INternational championship.
Second rate to at least the German,Spanish and British championships.
The only Europeans that come over to race in the US championships now are the washed up ones and come over for the payola and no stress racing.
Still ahead of us though as we attract NO internationals.
Ciao

What's your point, Phil, to remind us that  our road racing turned to shit under the wrong management team for too many years and now it's getting back to what it once was under Wayne Raineys control/$?   I am all too aware what has happened and why.  It's going to take awhile to get up to speed again.   If enough fans don't show up @ the races it will not be successful like it used to be, me being 1 of those former fans @ the tracks.

[rodekyll]

I would have defined the term snobbery as someone that somehow decides they speak for others. As for Superbikes, what nobody here owns an MGS01 a Grisso a V11 sport in all its forms? I would call them all sports/superbikes.
As for me well I'm here and I have a Ducati1000ss, an 1198 Ducati a GSXR1000 track bike a Ducati ST2 and the old V11. So you certainly don't speak for me.
 
Ciao

Really?  Besides yourself, what other comments have been from the nobodies that own the the MGS01, Grisso (THAT'S a SUPERBIKE????), V11 sport, etc.  I'll save you time -- 'Nobody' is the word.  Seems the ricky racer representation is confined to yourself. 

What's that you decided a snob is? some who assumes to speak for others?  You've not only assumed to speak for others, you've assumed the others.

The actual folks in the discussion aren't discussing the power-ranger-ride-in-circles set.  We do real riding on real roads with real traffic, real weather, and real hazards to contend with.  We don't care what works for the controlled conditions of track day and superbikes.  As several folks have gently tried to tell you -- ours is a different world.  And in that context, for a lot of folks, linked brakes are just dandy.

[jacksonracingcomau]

As this thread proves, some like some don't
I don't but every summer I use my bros bike in UK  that still has linked
Feels like I've got no brakes compared to mine here, esp deep into corner

but has one huge advantage when white finger sets in, just use the foot pedal, at least some brakes are there
Here I often stop and punch my other palm to get circulation going

So in light of old man's forum I'm betting both ways !!

On the other topic, I'm a full on engine braker, always have been, I don't wear clutches out, no logic in that at all

You know when someone is better than you cos you're using brakes to keep up when they're not touching them
Smooth doesn't wear anything out, it's the brutal braker / accelerator that kills stuff and generally gets in the way too

[Rough Edge racing]

 Rural roads around here are often a loose surface ....I prefer to use rear brake only in these situations...

[Wayne Orwig]

Rural roads around here are often a loose surface ....I prefer to use rear brake only in these situations...

I have done a lot of experiments with my older California and the EV on loose gravel. Pressing the foot pedal hard enough will lock up the rear wheel and give a nice amount of drag on the front. In other words, it stops quickly and works very well, even on loose gravel.

[rocker59]

Linked brakes are so awesome that they were included on all the latest Guzzi models...

Oh wait...  Guzzi currently has no new bikes with linked brakes...

Two of my seven Guzzis had linked brakes, and honestly I didn't like those brakes.  I did like the LM1000 linked brakes better than those on the Bassa, but that's not saying much.

I know there are a lot of long-time Guzziphiles who enjoy the old Guzzis with linked brakes.  Like Phil, I'm not one of them.

[Wayne Orwig]

But, on a different note.
A photo from Barbers Museum when it was located in downtown Birmingham.

[rocker59]

But, on a different note.
A photo from Barbers Museum when it was located in downtown Birmingham.

I love it!

"a unique feature on Guzzis, until the Japanese invented it".

 

[Arizona Wayne]

For the street, I started with non-linked brakes on Yamaha bikes.   Then my wife made me switch to a Guzzi with linked brake system and since then I prefer that setup.  For racing, no.   To each their own preference. 

[dibble]

On the Honda system ('98 VFR) when you pull the front lever you get all the pistons on both front discs and just a wee bit of rear. If you hit the pedal you get all the rear pistons and one  set of pistons on one of the front discs, which for normal sport bike/track day riding is invisible/acceptable.

I notice it when using LOTS of front brake and changing down into corners, let the clutch out and the back locks up more than it should.

Upsets me once or twice a year.

Don't notice it for the other 7,999 miles

[kirby1923]

I notice it when using LOTS of front brake and changing down into corners, let the clutch out and the back locks up more than it should.

Upsets me once or twice a year.

Don't notice it for the other 7,999 miles

I never had that happen on the street but on my first track day while dicing with a guy on an RC51 I had a moment when in very heavy braking I locked the rear with just the frot lever.

I think it was because I might have unloaded the rear so much from front brakes that it did lock up for a short time.

I blocked the fluid from the valve to the rear so no rear with the front brakes. Sorted.

I went back to a '97 VFR a year later. I like it much better than the "flexi frame" and linked brakes of the '98.

[luthier]

When I got my Cali I delinked and ran this thread to find out general opinion. In those days [2006] it was around 50/50 but there were a few who had serious accidents caused by linking. That thread was lost in the forum crash that year.

I live on dirt and sometimes visit a friend who has a steep mountain track which is incredibly slimy when wet and has  precipitous drops for hundreds of meters at every bend which are almost all hairpins. Without being able to engine brake and feather the rear wheel only down there I would have most likely gone off the edge, or at least fallen in the slime, so very happy I was delinked that first time.

I also concur that having them linked also results in very weak front handbraking which is not adequate in many situations.
In my case I swapped the front master cylinder for a Jap 12mm and added stainless braided lines. The result for me was at least a 30% improvement with great feel, and having ridden only British bikes before I was very happy with that standard setup.

I'm pleased to see the ground swell against linking the Guzzi way as I believe it is dangerous and antiquated.

I agree the BMW method of linking everything with the handbrake, but biasing the back , would seem the best option, leaving the rear brake able to be operated on it's own. Definitely the most sensible, but too complicated for me. Simplicity is better with no linking at all.
ABS is also quite hazardous on dirt unless very sophisticated. I think Beemer may have achieved this these days but it's just another very expensive toy to go wrong in my opinion.

[charlie b]

Did you use a 12mm MC to operate two F08 calipers?  I thought it was supposed to be too small for that.