GPS software

[rodekyll]

I've read some topics here about trip planning and GPS software and decided to try it this year.  MS Streets and Trips is NLA, most others require an internet connection, smart phone or subscription, so I'm hovering over the 'buy-it-now' button on the Delorme Street Atlas 2015.  My intent is trip planning and GPS position lookup to find out if the road not taken also gets me back.  If I follow Hiway 7 around Mt Rainier and go down this side road, can I still find Hermiston without detouring through Astoria?  I'm not real interested in the 'fluff' side -- recommendations for food and booze or entertainment, places of interest, etc.  I just want to navigate and route plan.

Can anyone think of why I should not pay $40 for the program?

[charlie b]

Is this for computer?  I had Copilot on the phone and tablet.  It was nice for GPS use, but, not that great for trip planning.  It was good that I did not need internet for it to work.

Have not tried Delorme, mainly cause of cost.  I have always had an internet connection of some sort when route planning so have used Furkot.

You can always use Basecamp  :)  :)  :)

[rboe]

We used DeLorme on one trip. The biggest PITA, it was a Thinkpad A31, the wife complained it was too heavy. Got a Tom Tom GPS after that.

Secondary problems that may be solved by now, the interface sucked rocks with one of the worst UI's I've ever seen. Downloading maps (mainly topo's) seemed to be designed to be slow to discourage you from using it.

We got a free GPS dongle with the software too. I shudder about using the dang thing ever again. I'd hope that the UI has been improved. Certainly TomTom has improved theirs.

[rodekyll]

Thanks for the reviews!  I'm not expecting too much more than a rolling map with my position indicated.  That's all I really need.  I don't anticipate using it literally on the fly since the computer is a bit large to balance on the tank.  I'll be pulling over and consulting it as needed.

I'll be using it on a rugged laptop -- Panasonic Toughbook W7/integrated GPS.  I'd been using streets and trips in the past, but I was grounded for the last few years, during which MS discontinued the product.  For $40 the blurbs make it sound like a not-too-bad deal.  I contacted the company and discovered that they sell a downloadable version on amazon.  I think I'll give it a try.

[Wayne Orwig]

I assume you are only interested in offline maps.

I still use Microsoft S&T. I don't need maps newer than 2013 yet.
I also have Mapsource and Basecamp on my tablet with free OSM map data.
The latest Win 10 allows you to download all maps to your device. I haven't used that much though. And Here maps are downloadable.

[rodekyll]

I do not know what online and offline means in terms of maps.  I'd like to seem my position in real-time per gps, but I think I should be able to store the maps on the hard drive.  I don't think I should need to connect to the internet for them.  Does that explain it?

[charlie b]

That's offline maps.  The software downloads what you need.

[rodekyll]

It's sucking down about 6Gb.  I hope that's enough!

[n3303j]

$100 will buy a number of Garmin units.
Why not just go that route.
Small, convenient and durable.

[Matt Story]

I would use my smartphone for this with Google maps.  The software is free.  You would need a contract, but the device can be in your pocket for easy access any time you want to look, plus it does everything else for you too.  Pretty much any device form the last 5 years would do this, and used can be had cheap.  Android would be my choice, and one that's been rooted.  I prefer something with easily replaced batteries so you can always have a couple spare charged and ready.

One great added plus is you can use the internet to watch the weather to see when you're going to get wet.

Unlimited voice/data/text/gps plans can be had for $50 or so per month

my 2c

[ITSec]

I've used a bunch of the different tools and GPS brands over the last 15 years or so. Here's my take on the various tools and products.

MS Streets & Trips is hands-down the best of the computer-based tools for planning and comparing alternatives. I still use it on both my home system and on the tablet or laptop I carry with me. I do not use it by the side of the road, but do use it at night in the motel room. Delorme is an end-of-life product that was never as user friendly; Garmin recently bought out Delorme and is turning it into a development lab and ending the product line. From the news release: "Garmin will retain most of the associates of DeLorme and will continue operations at its existing location in Yarmouth, Maine following the completion of the acquisition. The Yarmouth facility will operate primarily as a research and development facility and will continue to develop two-way satellite communication devices and technologies."

TomTom makes the most viable of the alternatives to Garmin currently (Magellan did until Thales, its parent, sold the consumer line to Mio - all since then is garbage). TomTom took a different route (can I say that?) since they made an agreement to use an outside software package called Tyre-to-Travel (or just Tyre). Tyre was developed by a motorcycle enthusiast, and it is by far the best at managing routes and transferring them to a GPS, whether TomTom or Garmin. However, since Tyre was developed without access to a map resource, it was developed with a heavy dependency on Google Maps - and can't be used well without an Internet connection. I use Tyre to massage routes I develop in Streets & Trips, and then move them to my GPS. I own a TomTom 550 GPS, and it is very good for motorcycle use, although making changes to routes while traveling is a bit tricky.

Garmin has long dominated the market, but their strategy that allowed them to do so hasn't been particularly good for consumers. Their mapping software has always been based on the idea that your maps would be those supplied by the GPS device you had bought from (of course) Garmin. Trying to use Basecamp or its predecessors was almost impossible unless you has linked in maps from a Garmin GPS, and their low-end units wouldn't work - you had to buy a good enough Garmin to use the software! Their software has always also been among the worst to try to learn. While a computer-savvy person can now get publicly available maps to use with Basecamp, it's time-consuming and a kludge. I use Basecamp and a Garmin Zumo 660 currently, but I still use Basecamp less than either S&T or Tyre.

One of the best resources on the web is a tool called SPOTwalla - a friend of mine (proud to say that) developed this and supports it. While it is primarily tied to route tracking using the SPOT satellite devices, it also supports other devices - and some of that software and those devices are also helpful for route management while riding. I'd particularly suggest looking into Bubbler GPS on Android for your smartphone.

My TomTom 550 is on the shelf as a backup right now; if it would help you as you set off on your travels, I can offer it to you on an indefinite loan while you figure out what you want as a permanent solution and complete your travels this summer and fall. I don't anticipate needing it again, and eventually you can return it or pay it forward. It's set up for a RAM mount and gets power from a USB connection, which I usually feed from a lighter adapter. Let me know...

[charlie b]

If you get the Delorme stuff let us know how it works.

6GB should be plenty.  The Copilot maps of the US only use up about 3GB on my phone.

[rodekyll]

ITSec -- good write up.

I have used nav software extensively in marine and aviation environments where it really makes sense.  I have not used it on the road.  Alaska only has the one, so as long as you can tell this way from that way, gps won't help.  If you can't tell this way from that way it still won't help.  So a lot of the pros and cons of computer v dedicated unit v smartphone goes right over my head.  Add to that my generally luddite nature and zero experience with either a cellular telephone (smart or otherwise) or handheld gps and you see I'm pretty hopeless.

But I think it's time to learn.  I got me a 300 mile native range on the trike, and a lot of space to store more gas.  That's a lot of potential to get lost, and I plan to do my best.  In anticipation of that, I plumbed into the trike a 12v cigarette adapter.  I have the ability to add a usb-type power outlet too.  So I can plug in a tom-tom or similar to experiment with.  I'd like to borrow that unit of yours, but I can't see it arriving before I leave.  Are you planning to be at the national or other rally this summer?

As far as internet-based, subscription/contract based, or based on devices that require these sorts of things -- not options for me.  It was bad enough having to give up personal information to delorme in order to install their program.  I'm not going to buy into anyone's evil empire to find street directions. 

The software is done installing -- I'm going to see if it can find my built-in gps.

[rodekyll]

If you get the Delorme stuff let us know how it works.

6GB should be plenty.  The Copilot maps of the US only use up about 3GB on my phone.

So far Charlie, it seems completely stupid.  There's nothing intuitive about it.  If you are already familiar with nav software you'll spend most of your time wondering why the people who invented this one aren't.  They have no f-ing idea how an actual map or chart is used and probably couldn't find north with both hands and a coal mine canary.  Maybe this is how facebook works and I should know it.  Maybe it's how video games are played.  I don't know if it's worth trying to get in their heads to figure out what brain fart translates to what function in normal software.   grrrrrrr.

[jacksonracingcomau]

We're on same page RK, Luddite but I've got so many paper maps and every single place I've been is on a fold or edge of page etc, rolling map is answer for sure
I have a Garmin but impossible to see detail when zoomed out, to me is for turn by turn directions, no more, it will tell you which street you're in but relating that to somewhere 100 miles away and which is the quietiest or prettiest way there , beyond it.
So I got a tablet too, running Osmand a $10 for all the maps in world app
Was good but couldn't bluetooth routes to Garmin for guidance
Then it died
About to try new tablet running windows 10, use Basecamp at night/stops whatever for route plan , send to Garmin for directions if needed
Tablet always live in tankbag in case I decide to deviate (usually do, no hurry, journey not destination etc), lift lid see where I am in big picture

Only issue I can see with laptop is baggage and boot up time, as long as you can keep it powered up/ charging and easy to get at should do job you want
No reason not to try all the free or cheap mapping apps / progs , I went through 4 or 5 before Osmand
Tablet I bought is only $200, about to head to Europe
Getting to Mandello off motorways and changing route every time I see anything vaguely interesting will be the test
Did it with paper maps many times years ago but 8" tablet with world maps offline is,  in theory at least, serious progress.

As someone said above windows 10 lets you download any maps free, I'll test them there too, won't have connection travelling

[fossil]

I would give Bing Maps a try, it works well on my Windows 10 - phones and on my Windows 10 - Dell Latitude. It´s free, you can download maps for offline use, and it has a turn-by-turn - description. Did I mention it´s free?

[Wayne Orwig]

I would give Bing Maps a try, it works well on my Windows 10 - phones and on my Windows 10 - Dell Latitude. It�s free, you can download maps for offline use, and it has a turn-by-turn - description. Did I mention it�s free?

The problem with it is that you can't export the trips that you create to a phone or GPS.

[charlie b]

RK, you aren't alone.  Don't know about marine nav software but the consumer stuff for streets has always been kind kludgy.  I don't know who designed the interfaces but it's kinda like they had never used a paper map before.  And, they are working for the common person's use, most of whom have never bothered to open up a map before.  All they want is to punch in an address and have the thing tell them which turns to make.  They don't really plan a route, or, if they do, they let the GPS tell them when to stop for gas, where to eat and where to spend the night.

You might end up liking the dedicated gps though.  But, they are made for turn by turn, not route planning.  And getting something from the route planning to the gps has been one of the biggest issues in gps units in the last decade.  That is really the reason why so many people put up with the horrible Basecamp software by Garmin, cause it works directly with the gps unit and can do just about anything you need to do in planning a route.  But, it is not easy to learn.  If you try it go into it with the idea that you are going to want to bash the computer into the wall at least 5 or 6 times while learning  :)  I think Wayne pointed out that you can use the OSMand maps with Basecamp.  I have not tried that yet, but, will shortly.

Good luck on your quest.

[rboe]

Well poop. Sounds like DeLorme never improved the UI. Good riddence that its' end of life.

I use mapquest.com for route planning (mainly for time of driving). In the car/truck I use paper maps - use the GPS for time to next stop. Helps on deciding if I should hit the rest stop now or wait till gas. 

The TomTom really helps navigating through larger cities and their fever crazed freeway systems. I can now get through Las Vegas with just a preview of the paper map. I have yet to put a GPS on the bike.

I've tried different GPS software packages (including the Osmand recommended here) on my iPad but none worked as well as the Tom Tom software. TomTom is trying hard to push us towards a subscription service. I'll use mapquest and google maps long before I go that route.

I suspect that route planing on the laptop the night before and during lunch breaks, coupled with paper maps, will serve you very well. I still stuff a paper map in the tank bag for review. Now that I need bifocals and a full face helmet, even the tank bag map is hard to use so I just review it at gas stops. Lately I've been on routes I've used before so a even a map is not needed (save for getting through Las Vegas!).

I still entertain the idea of a GPS for the bike though. Mainly because I seem to be attracted to new electronic toys, no real need. sigh

[rodekyll]

They have a HUGE display area for completely useless information that blots out about half the screen and so far I can't reduce its size.  I don't need to know the name of the road I'm travelling on in 30 POINT SCRIPT while having no clear view of the map.  I should be able to relocate and resize those indicators and add/subtract as it pleases me.  Completely missing is a real-time indicator to let you know if you have an adequate gps capture.  Something like a green dash light with perhaps a number to let you know how many sats you've acquired would be all it would take.  Completely unhidable is a huge button that if you accidently hit it overwrites the entire screen with a menu of mini malls and eateries in a 5-mile area.  Pretty darn miserable example of 'navigation' software.

On the accuracy front -- it assumes you're on whatever road you're near.  I'm sitting on the front porch with it and it chows me being a hundred yards or so away on a main arterial, with a heading that does not match the lay of the road.  It also says I'm at 57' altitude, when I know I'm only at 15' because there's an elevation marker pounded into the ground right there.  On the water or in the air this kind of sloppy crap would be instantly fatal.

I'm taking it on a cruise around town now to see if I drive on the streets or through people's yards.

The problem with the generous offers of gps units and other alternatives to this computer-based software is the time constraint.  There's not enough time to ship those units here before I leave, and I don't really have a forwarding address at this point.  Unless we were going to cross paths along the way -- a rally or something -- I'd have no reliable means of receiving a package.  So as much as this would be a wonderful opportunity to evaluate the different approaches to mapping, I don't know how I'd manage it.  If you folks making the offers have thoughts about that, I'd be happy to hear them . . . .

[stormshearon]

I highly suggest that you take a look at https://trips.furkot.com/ui> I tried it out on my last trip and it worked well for planning - not sure how it works on a small device - but once you create a trip, you can access it offline and the program allows for export. It does have 'fluff' - but you can ignore that. Best is it's free and works really well.

[rodekyll]

I'm getting it a little better under control.

in normal acceleration with the van there is as much as a 5 block lag after hitting a steady speed for the gps and dashboard speedometer agree.  As I accelerate it often initially shows as much as a 5 mile drop in speed.  So this is not a real-time speedometer.

The altimeter is just silly.  I can stand with my feet in the ocean and it says I've got 25 feet of air.  Don't use it to land your airplane!

It shows me near roads, but not necessarily on them.  Likewise, it gives a heading that may or may not be true to the actual direction of travel.  But it's close enough to know what road I'm on and hopefully the turns required to stay on a route.  I'm going to try building my route to John Day from Vashon Island tonight and see if I can rely on it to keep me found.

It's leaving a slug trail, but I'm not seeing where I can turn that on or off on the fly yet, and I can't modify the gps sample rate, which might cure the speed and heading problem.  As it is the computer has been sitting for an hour and has 'wandered' several hundred feet in all random directions  . . . .

. .  . but like the calibrated compass -- how accurate do I need this all to be?

[Wayne Orwig]

Sounds like you would be better off getting a used Android and running OSMand+.

[Wayne Orwig]

I highly suggest that you take a look at https://trips.furkot.com/ui> I tried it out on my last trip and it worked well for planning - not sure how it works on a small device - but once you create a trip, you can access it offline and the program allows for export. It does have 'fluff' - but you can ignore that. Best is it's free and works really well.

Furkot sucks IMHO. It uses online Google maps, so you have to have a live connection to plan. And I have had it route me hundreds of miles out of the way on a 60 mile trip, just to get me to a hotel that it recommends. They have to make money somehow, but geez.

[rodekyll]

I just had it build a route from the ferry dock at Vashon island to Randle, Wa.  It drew a straight line between the two.  I guess I have no patience for something this completely stupid when I could figure it all out with a glance at a paper map.  The resolution is so horrible that if you zoom in to the point that street names can be read the letters are unreadable.

I'll keep at it, but I think my trip planning time is better spent doing the dishes and getting the garbage to the curb.

[rodekyll]

Yeah, I'm done with it.  I have never seen anything more inappropriate to it's stated purpose than this total waste of hard drive space.  Too bad it's not returnable and not refundable.  But it couldn't be returned using itself to find the way back, so it's just as well.  Maybe it will work as a rolling map, but drawing me straight lines for 500 miles is not the way to plan me a route.  I wish the guy who invented it was stuck out in some unknown place and made to find his way home.  He'd apologize and become a monk if he found his way.

[ITSec]

The problem with the generous offers of gps units and other alternatives to this computer-based software is the time constraint.  There's not enough time to ship those units here before I leave, and I don't really have a forwarding address at this point.  Unless we were going to cross paths along the way -- a rally or something -- I'd have no reliable means of receiving a package.  So as much as this would be a wonderful opportunity to evaluate the different approaches to mapping, I don't know how I'd manage it.  If you folks making the offers have thoughts about that, I'd be happy to hear them . . . .

Which day are you expecting to be at John Day? It's a day ride from Las Vegas...

[rodekyll]

I'm hoping to get there late Wed night or Thurs morning and stay for the duration.  The VW van tent is a bitch to pitch and I want to delay unpitching it as long as possible.  There are some other 'local' rallies I might wander off to after JD -- it depends on how the trike is running.  So I'm in no hurry to move on.

[ITSec]

Let me see what this week looks like - I may be able to ride up there and deliver the GPS. I need a bit of mental vacation anyway, and a long ride for a day or two would probably be good for me. I might also be able to help you with a quick class on the software and techniques for use. Does your trike have a traditional handlebar? I may have a spare handlebar RAM mount to go with it...

[rodekyll]

I have a fat bar.  It's a single bar though -- not swan necks or clip-ons.

You should come up and take a tour of the trike.  It might appeal to your sense of humor.  I know I laughed for days when I first saw it on the road somewhere.  It's a great example of why they wedged Canada in between Alaska and America.