Norge GT 8V vs. Ducati Multistrada

[Bonaventure]

I am on my 2nd Multistrada, first was a 2013 now a 2016 due to deer collision with the '13.  Was actually looking at other bikes after the '13 was settled out, but ended up back on another Multi because the [same] dealer worked really hard to keep my business.  All  I can say is that the DVT engine isn't, at least on mine, what it is hyped up to be in company promo's.  The engine looks good on paper but at least mine has not just a flat spot in the power curve below 6000, between 3000 - 4000 starting off in 1st gear it has a pronounced up/down surge that the dealer tech says is just because that is an rpm range that they concentrated on for the Euro 4 emissions compliance or whatever and it's more of a feature than a defect.  Granted, the Ducati twin is notorious for the "Ducati Shuffle" at lower rpm's but then we have the hype about the Desmodromic Variable Valve Timing or DVT that eliminates all that.  So, that and they brought the rake in to 24 degrees which is great for flicking around town but I'm finding that highway touring it feels less stable than my '13, which was just stable enough but nothing to write home about.  Anyhow, enough whining about the super electronically complex Multi.  I'm interested in replacing it with something that won't cost $2500 for a dealer service (true story for an 18,000 mile valve check svc on a '15 a guy had), looks great, belt or shaft (kind of tired of chains), European, DIY friendly, and nice linear power that doesn't have to rip your arms off the bars just be steady and firm.  From what I can gather reading road tests, comparos, and reviews both pro and independent riders the Norge seems to fit the bill. 

The only bike I'm looking at against the Norge is the BMW R1200 RS (not RT) and but it looks like there may be no way to fit HID beams to the RS and that is also one of my questions about the Norge as to if HID's can be fitted to the low beam projector setup.  That is because the LED beams of the Duc I credit for really catching motorists' attention.     

Thanks for any insight.  Closest Guzzi dealer about two hours away which is same distance I have to the Duc dealer, so not a big change on that. 

[Bonaventure]

I should add wind protection to the list.  Hoping for improvement in wind management at speed when touring.  I am 6'2", 34" pants inseam which also might require the peg lowering kit Moto Int'l in Seattle sells for the Norge? 

[Dean Rose]

Just put a set of 1800 Godwin pegs on the Norge.

Dean

[jas67]

Re: LED headlights for the R1200RS.   If it takes an H7, then this is the ticket, and will fit in any housing:
http://stores.advmonster.com/h7-r3-led-headlight-for-bmw/

[JeffOlson]

Quite a few people here have or have had a Norge. (I am on my second Norge.) if you can, you really should test ride one. They are great bikes, but I imagine they are very different from your Ducati...

[CalVin2007]

Quote:

   "... it has a pronounced up/down surge that the dealer tech says is just because that is an rpm range that they concentrated on for the Euro 4 emissions compliance or whatever and it's more of a feature than a defect"

        LOL!

    I'll bet a roller cam Norge with Beetle's map in the ECU will be just the ticket. 

  Terry

  ...or a Stelvio for that matter.

       

[Bonaventure]

What is Beetle's map, is it a custom tune? 

[CalVin2007]

 Yes. You can buy cables to connect your ECU to a laptop and use the free Guzzidiag program to load maps to your ecu. Search for Guzzidiag here and you will soon find all you need to know. Its a GREAT program and tool for us Guzzi owners! Thanks to all who developed and made it available. 

[Cool Runnings]

What is Beetle's map, is it a custom tune?

From beetle, may check into his map after exhaust can is installed, map is for stock bike, so I may have adjust some things?

Mac or Windows. No difference. You will need to install the correct drivers, depending upon which OS you use.  Get them here: http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/VCP.htm

Do NOT use drivers that might be included with the cables. Cables can be purchased from Amazon or eBay, or Lonelec: http://lonelec.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51

If you buy from Amazon or eBay, make sure they have the FTDI chip. If you are in Canada or the USA, Amazon will be quicker. Also, only buy the 3 pin to 16 pin adapter with the single positive lead. Some have been shipped with the leads reversed. If you get on Amazon and search for 'GuzziDiag' you will get a few hits for the cable suppliers.

Mark

[ITSec]

The Norge certainly seems to address most of your concerns, although it will be a more relaxed and less energetic mount, to be sure. A couple of specific thoughts...

Service is incredibly simple, making it easy for you to perform for yourself, and relatively inexpensive to pay someone to do since it's straightforward. Fluid changes, valve adjustments, and other routine service can be completed with ordinary garage tools. Certain tasks, such as changing the alternator belt, take more time and effort, but once you know the tricks are just a matter of time and effort. Most of these more complex tasks only need doing every 30,000 to 50,000 miles.

As some have mentioned, getting the mapping that suits you is more a matter of determining your own preferences and concerns, and selecting from the maps easily available online thanks to the work of Beetle, Paul and others. The most difficult thing about this is obtaining a good set of cables to use for the GuzziDiag software and related utilities.

The projector headlights have two characteristics that limit the options for alternative sources. First, projector lights are designed for a pinpoint source, i.e., a filament bulb with the filament to create a point source for the light, and that point must remain where the designer of the optics intended it. Thus, commonly available LED replacement bulbs often produce LESS output in a projector housing since they don't emit the light from where the projector lens expects it. This can also be a problem for some HID replacement bulbs, though less frequently. However, HID lights don't react well to being switched on and off - they work best when left on all the time. The switching for the Norge's lights illuminates either high or low - but not both simultaneously. An HID installation would suffer from repeated warm-up times when used in this configuration.

The second issue is that the headlamp housing of the Norge is susceptible to heat, and the area around the projector lens can bubble and distort if too much heat is created by the bulb. Some owners discovered this to their chagrin when they tried the higher wattage H1 bulbs (usually used in accessory driving lights).

I'd recommend using accessory driving lights instead of trying to overcome the limitations of the stock designs. If you like, you can use a dimmer (such as the one from Skene) to reduce the intensity when the low beams are used, and go full in coordination with high beam use. I got some inexpensive accessory lights that use CREE LED sources (very good stuff!), and designed a simple, attractive bracket to mount them; Norge Pilot did something similar. Here's a link to my light bar design, which uses a 20 inch length of easily available 1x1 aluminum L-channel - http://people.delphiforums.com/ITSecurity/Norge/LightBarNorgev0-1.pdf

And here's what the mounted assembly looks like (slightly off-center shot, so ignore the perspective oddity):



The Goldwing pegs are good, and if you prefer a peg that's not quite so large, the one for the Buell Ulysses also provides a lowered position. When I had my seat made by Russell Day Long, I had them add in almost an inch higher ride height. Lots of ways to handle this issue. Various riser solutions can also move the controls where you prefer.

Weather protection is fairly good, but can be improved in two ways. First, consider a taller and wider windshield; I switch between the stock one (with a Laminar Lip) for hot weather, and a CalSci medium (for long distance, wet weather, and cold). Another useful add-on are the hand guards from the Stelvio, which easily fit the Norge and improve both hand protection and airflow off the corners of the fairing.

[bad Chad]

I like the Buell pegs.  I also had the SeatGuy raise my seat 1.5", he did a great job, and I really makes a difference.

[LowRyter]

The Norge is certainly the most economical purchase to buy and maintain.  The Norge seems to have been pretty solid with few glitches.  It may not have the outright power of the Duc or Beemer,  the 8v  has good power when you need it.   Good handling, comfort and riding position.  The 4v version has a little less power.

The new RS is nice machine with lots of options but it's $18k.  Lots of Norges are available in the <$10k range.

[kingoffleece]

On a technical twisty section of road the Norge has all the power a skilled rider would ever need.  The pace, or lack thereof, compared to others will reflect the skill level of the operator.  Unless the pace requires max hp, which most likely is not the  turns, it'll do all you ask of it.

[Bonaventure]

Thanks for all the good info guys, appreciate it. 

Most reviews I've read comment that the fueling with the 8V feels perfect.  What do the custom tunes improve if factory fueling is already pretty dialed-in?  And... what kind of fuel mileage does the Guzzi 1200 twin yield?

Does the Guzzi use a throttle cable and TPS or has it gone full throttle-by-wire these days, too?

And finally, are most guys just removing the center stand since it apparently scrapes too easily in lean?   

[Gliderjohn]

Quote from Bonaventure:

And finally, are most guys just removing the center stand since it apparently scrapes too easily in lean?

Concerning the side stand, I ride a 2011 8V. I have yet to scrape the side stand and I have cooked it what I thought was pretty good pace a few times in curves. Don't know if it is riding style, suspension settings or that maybe I just thought I was pushing it a bit. Have ridden the Rockies, Ozarks, and Talimena, Ok.
GliderJohn

[Cool Runnings]

Quote from Bonaventure:
Concerning the side stand, I ride a 2011 8V. I have yet to scrape the side stand and I have cooked it what I thought was pretty good pace a few times in curves. Don't know if it is riding style, suspension settings or that maybe I just thought I was pushing it a bit. Have ridden the Rockies, Ozarks, and Talimena, Ok.
GliderJohn

Pegs will hit 1st. 

[ITSec]

Thanks for all the good info guys, appreciate it. 

Most reviews I've read comment that the fueling with the 8V feels perfect.  What do the custom tunes improve if factory fueling is already pretty dialed-in?  And... what kind of fuel mileage does the Guzzi 1200 twin yield?

Does the Guzzi use a throttle cable and TPS or has it gone full throttle-by-wire these days, too?

And finally, are most guys just removing the center stand since it apparently scrapes too easily in lean?

Mileage is highly dependent on the mapping you use and the ease wioth which your right wrist moves.  The factory map is probably the most economical, but you can still get good mileage with some changes. I tend to be at the low end of the spectrum, since I have a 2v (less efficient than the 8v), a mapping that is on the rich side (helps cool the engine in the desert), run with all bags all the time and often with a larger windshield, and while I'm not a boy racer I haven't lost the tendency to get the most out of the machine from time to time. In my case, that means 40-42 mpg, a bit better on the highway. If I do 60 mph on the back roads, I can edge it up to about 44-46.

The throttle is pure cable, with a TPS. If it had throttle by wire, they'd have put a factory cruise on it (it would be a straight transplant from the Aprilia Caponord electronics).

The last time I scraped the stand, it was two-up with the older design factory shock. Hasn't happened since I made the suspension changes the earlier version of the bike required.

[JeffOlson]

I just rode my Norge non-stop from Olympia to Hubbard tonight and averaged 49 miles per gallon at approximately 75 to xx mph. Not bad! Oh, and I use Beetle's richer map. Stock, I might have averaged a tad more.

[Cool Runnings]

I just rode my Norge non-stop from Olympia to Hubbard tonight and averaged 49 miles per gallon at approximately 75 to xx mph. Not bad! Oh, and I use Beetle's richer map. Stock, I might have averaged a tad more.

Jeff, is beetles map the way to go? By the way, aren't you running a custom exhaust can too?

[JeffOlson]

Beetle's maps do help. The stock map is too lean at low throttle settings. Beetle's maps help reduce bucking and lurching as well as popping on deceleration.

So far, I am still using the stock can on Norge #2, but that may change soon!

[LowRyter]

The stock 8v Norge I rode a few years ago had no throttle issues.  I thought it was just about perfect.  The bike is balanced and has a good power delivery. 

Compared to the Connie 1400 I test ride before it, the Norge had a lighter feel & better balanced, was just as smooth, and had similar throttle response until you flogged it into the upper RPMs where the Norge couldn't go.

It's not in the same class as the new RS in terms of options, refinement, power and electronic doo-dads, just like it's not in the upper power class range with the Connie.  For the bucks, it's a refined, comfortable, great handling bikes that has all the power I wanted unless I was in a drag race. 

My experience is that Guzzis have the "best feel" and "handling confidence" against most most bikes in their class. 

[Bonaventure]

What about the dry clutch, is it a weak point?  I have not too clumsy of a shift but not mr. butter smooth either.  I saw a thread somewhere on the replacement procedure for the clutch plates and it looked to be beyond my confidence level. 

[Doppelgaenger]

The clutch in the Norges is pretty reliable all things considered (unlike some past Guzzi models), and yes it's a pain in the butt to do compared to other bikes. When the time comes to replace it, I'll probably have the dealership handle it because I don't have a place to do that kind of work. The hydraulic clutch actuation is a little vague compared to a cable system, but that's just the nature of the system.

When you look at it though, most of the regular maintenance items like valve adjustments are so trivial that you end up on top in the cost of service department compared to other bikes. A clutch replacement is probably in the same cost range as a full ducati service. The CARC shaft drive is also superior to the BMW lever equivalent in the reliability department.

As for BMWs, the Beemer engine has more low end torque but the guzzi likes to rev more. (this opinion is based on the R NineT)

BMW vehicles, both cars and motorcycles, top the list of unreliability and cost to keep running once they have higher miles so you'll end up with a bike that is even more expensive to run than the Multistrada you already have.

[ITSec]

What about the dry clutch, is it a weak point?  I have not too clumsy of a shift but not mr. butter smooth either.  I saw a thread somewhere on the replacement procedure for the clutch plates and it looked to be beyond my confidence level.

My Norge's clutch has 115,000 miles on it; the one in my Subaru Baja Turbo only lasted about 50,000, so I'd say the Guzzi design is not a weak point. My fondness for boost might be, though!

The Norge's clutch is gonna be replaced sometime in the next 10-20,000, but that is one job I'll leave to the shop.

[Jerryd]

It always cracks me up to read these comparison and the comments about the Norge being short on power compared to a BMW or Ducati. How much power do you need? We're taliking about touring bikes not drag racers. I've put a lot of long distance rides on my Norge's fully loaded up and never thought I needed more power. Also, I've had 3 different 2V Norge's with Rhe latest factory maps and once set up properly had issues with lurching. Maybe some popping on deceleration, but that's it. I have talked to others privately here on the forum who were sorry they went with modified maps rather then left stock.

[kingoffleece]

I was speaking with Glenn from Clearwater Lights at the BMWMOA National.  What can I say?  BMW riders are my #1 customer by a country mile so I was there!

He makes an aux kit for the Norge but it's not on his web site.  Go figure.  I've seen every aftermarket light ever made I think and the Clearwater, while very expensive, are unbelievable in quality of light and quantity along with the dimmer to make them fantastic daytime saftey lights.

As those light s are big in the BMW community and we had over 6000 bikes in WNY for four days I saw plenty of bikes all over.  The owners had a wide spread of every kind and type of aux lights and seeing all them together really made the impression that Clearwater had this dialed right in.  I just installed Danali 2 lights on my Norge.  They look like kindergarten compared to the Clearwater.   I really wish I would have spent the extra $$$.

[kingoffleece]

Also, ITSec is right on about HID in a projector style lens.

That was, for a bit, a common "fix" for the Tiger 1050, which I rode for quite a while.  The 1050 was notorious for poor lighting and of the several HID kits I helped install the results were, shall I say, less than as improved as the buyer would have expected.  Most every one who did the HID install ended up installing AUX lights anyway.  Lesson learned.

[Bonaventure]

Thanks guys for the additional info.