Moly additives question

[luthier]

Sorry it is about oil.

As we all know we need to put Molybdenum in the rear drive of most of the older Guzzis.

I haven't done one for years but am about to and I've seen this Moly additive for engines on sale at the auto spares.

Can anyone tell me if this is suitable to put in the rear drive of an Ambo?

 Presumably along with some 80/90 grade gearbox oil of course?

[n3303j]

Sorry it is about oil.

As we all know we need to put Molybdenum in the rear drive of most of the older Guzzis.

I haven't done one for years but am about to and I've seen this Moly additive for engines on sale at the auto spares.

Can anyone tell me if this is suitable to put in the rear drive of an Ambo?

 Presumably along with some 80/90 grade gearbox oil of course?

Well as long as we are going to have an oil thread thought I'd jump in with my Amsoil comments.


I run this stuff in all final drives and add nothing else to the final drive but this. I've inspected a half dozen final drives that have had over 50,000 miles running this product and the wear is insignificant. That even goes for a Ural final drive with its mediocre Russian gears. No other additive necessary. (My FWIW opinion)

The moly additives are hold overs from the same company that was telling me to wash the inside of my mufflers and routinely remove the heads to remove combustion byproducts. Fuels burn cleaner than in the past and modern oils are well formulated to match their task.

[Groover]

There is some information in this thread I started a few years ago. Lots of opinions, research and users' experiences.

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=70913.0

Ultimately on my G5's final drive I ended up using:

• 230cc - Bel-Ray Thumper Gear Saver Transmission Oil 80W-85
  
• 20cc - Harpers Molybdenum Disulfide

Hope that helps (but could confuse things further...)

[slopokes]

well it's 'bout time we had a good oil tred-------------

[oldbike54]

well it's 'bout time we had a good oil tred-------------

 Is there such a thing ?

 Dusty

[luthier]

Great, I didn't realize Harpers sold it. Damn hard to find on the net. A bottle of this will be in my next order.

https://www.harpermoto.com/moly-additive-molybdenum-disulfide.html

[wirespokes]

has anyone ever just added powdered moly? I've got a can of the stuff and wonder how much would do it.

[Triple Jim]

I have some too.  I imagine a teaspoon or two would be plenty.  1/4 teaspoon is enough to color everything in your house silver forever.

[Sasquatch Jim]

  So what kind of oil do you put in your rear end to minimize wear?

[rodekyll]

When I've gone into gearboxes that have been regularly molly'd I find there's enough of it globbed all over the inside surfaces to keep the level up in the oil indefinitely.  I don't think it goes into solution with gear oil very well, so it stays and builds up like a sludge.  If I got rambunctious and added more than a teaspoon, it's quite thick.

I'm not saying if that's good or bad -- don't know.  But it's in there.  My conclusion would be that if you've been a regular user and haven't sanitized the inside of the case, there's probably enough molly in there to last.  It will stir up with the new oil when you run the bike, and settle out of it when it rests.

$0.02

[Charles in Lake Charles]

Schaeffer 293 Supreme Synthetic Gear Lube also contains molly.

[leafman60]

http://www.dowcorning.com/applications/search/products/details.aspx?prod=01005855&type=PROD

http://www.lindberg-lund.com/files/Tekniske%20datablad/MK-M-GUARD-TD.pdf

T'aint cheap but a quart last a lonnnnnnnng time-

https://www.motionindustries.com/productDetail.jsp?sku=00785506


Much cheaper like this -

https://www.amazon.com/Liqui-Moly-2009-Anti-Friction-Treatment/dp/B003U4O414/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472291725&sr=8-1&keywords=moly+additive



or just call Harper's ....

[sib]

Note that the Dow Corning additive's application sheet states that it it compatible with mineral-based oils.  See this paragraph:

LIMITATIONS
Dow Corning M Gear Oil Additive is not recommended for addition to nonflammable or fire-resistant hydraulic fluids, or other synthetic fluids such as polyglycols, diesters or silicones.

Be warned.

[n3303j]

Down Corning application sheet also states a list of benefits that the use of their product MAY PROVIDE.
Toward the end it sounds a bit like snake oil.
I prefer data sheets with QUANTIFIED benefits.
I still think molybdenum is an unnecessary additive if the proper modern oil is used.

How many Eldorado owners are still pulling their cylinder heads every 6,000 miles to clean out the carbon? Owners manual says you should.

A  lot of owners still filling their mufflers with caustic soda for an hour and then flushing with boiling water? It's listed in the owners manual.

I think addition of molybdenum  is right up there with the other archaic procedures in the Eldorado handbook. These things aren't earth movers or rock crushers. They are less than 100 horsepower through some pretty large sized gears.

[luthier]

Starting to smell a rat on this Moly thing maybe?  Surely a decent Hypoid oil would do the trick in the bevel box? Or even a rat chucked in there and ground up fine?

Seems like we were told something a long time ago that may not be the same now since modern oil technology has come a long way.

But then I'm wanting to run the old kind of vehicle and maybe the technology has passed me by so that what I need is no longer needed in modern applications which makes my equipment  needing stuff that is no longer common.

This is my belief so I'll just get some of that Harpers magic solution and hope my bevel box will then do the hard yards it's cracked up to do.

Thanks all for your enthusiasm and inspiration.

[Guzzistajohn]

Never used a drop since 1989 never had a problem<shrug> my buddy Tim has had a v7 special since 1979 same.

[luthier]

So which oil do you use there in the final drive John?

[Guzzistajohn]

90 wt gear lube

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Great, I didn't realize Harpers sold it. Damn hard to find on the net. A bottle of this will be in my next order.

https://www.harpermoto.com/moly-additive-molybdenum-disulfide.html

http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=23&products_id=4541

http://guarddogmoly.com/product/gd-401-moly-treatment-for-gear-oils/

[Chuck in Indiana]

On modern Guzzis, I've ran nothing but synthetic gear lubes, no moly without issue.
However, Small block guru Sean Fader told me to only use dino oil with moly in the small block rear drive.. synthetics find their way out of that inner seal. <shrug> I don't know if it still applies to the new small blocks. Now you know what I know about that. Not much. 

[BMCMOTO]

Using moly in the amounts called for by Guzzi is probably ok.  My friend the 84 year old gear cutter says that moly additives can be tough on small needle roller bearings like used on the outer side of the crown wheel shaft on Guzzis.  The theory is that the moly can accumulate on the outer side of the needle causing the needle to grow to large for the containment of the outer bearing thereby causing the needle to shatter then traveling throughout the rear drive unit causing damage to both the crown wheel and the pinion.  The former leads me to the thought that more is definitely not a good thing in the case of moly in connection with rolling element bearings.  I also took note of Dow not mentioning its use for rolling element bearings, they do mention its use for plain bearings.  I have used Moly-Coat G paste as assembly lube for plain bearing engines for decades with no problems and would recommend it to anyone, I have also used STP as assembly lube along with many other things such as Lubriplate White assembly lube.  YMMV!

Brian

[Piglet]

Funny, I've never come across mention of the "Moly Slip" brand of additives in any of these moly threads.  I use Moly Slip gear supplement.  It comes in a big plastic tube. I used to use their runny engine oil supplement when using dino oil in the engine.  Oh yeah, and in my Aermacchi.   It has a dry clutch.   

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

My '69 Ambassador has had nothing but dino 80w90 and moly in it since new and the gears and bearings all look like new, zero visible wear, now at 109k miles. Pretty good for a rear drive that has been described as having "gear teeth not of the optimal profile for longevity" and no cush drive in the wheel. So, I will continue with what I know works, in my own and customer's bikes. 

[Moto]

I use it in my T3, but not my Griso.

The Harper's product is more expensive per dose than the MG Cycle one, which leads me to  wonder which is better, and, more to the point, which is closer in formulation to the product specified by Guzzi, called Molykote A. The specified amount is 0.020 liters, 0.676 fluid oz., or 4.056 ~= 4 teaspoons. If we use a product with a different concentration of moly, the dose should be adjusted.

Any one know what Molykote A is or was like?

Or what commonly available product is most comparable?

[Moto]

Trying to answer my own question (as I should have first, I suppose), I found a year 2001 product info sheet for Molykote A, from a Russian site: http://www.relicom.ru/images/upload/docs/molykoteA.pdf.

And an image of the can, from a Spanish site:



From the spec sheet, these are properties that could be compared with another product:

COMPOSITION
� Mineral oil
� Molybdenum disulphide
� Stabilizers

Color Black

ISO 2811 Density at 20[degrees]C g/ml 0.89

4 DIN 53 211 Viscosity s 12.5

Load-carrying capacity, wear protection, service life
DIN 51 350 pt.4 Weld load N 2400
DIN 51 350 pt.5 Wear scar under 800N load mm 1.5

Particle size
DIN 51 832 Particle size μm 3.8 [micrometers]


HOW TO USE

How to apply

Add to engine oils in proportion of
3% by volume, 5% to lubricating and
gear oils, and 10% for particularly
heavy stress. Can be used in all
lubrication systems, such as drip
oilers, central lubricating systems etc

[end of product sheet excerpt]

Guzzi's specification of .02 liters of Molykote A in .23 liters of Agip F. 1 Rostra MP SAE 90 [gear oil] is about 10%, which is the product sheet recommendation for "particularly heavy stress," above.

I haven't been able to find the product on the Dow Corning site or listed for sale anywhere.

Moto

[Moto]

I found specs on the Guard Dog product that MG Cycle offers:

**************************************************************

GD-401 imparts the benefits* of moly into plain oil. Moly is a solid film lubricant with a low coefficient of friction and an affinity for steel and other metals. The moly decreases friction of the two counter-moving sliding surfaces of gear teeth by filling in microscopic pores of the metal surfaces and plating out over the surface*.

In vehicles with manual transmissions GD-401 improves shifting, reduces noise, helps to eliminate notchy, balky and irregular shifting.

Guard Dog protects the gears from wear, which extends the life of them.

*Explained in our Frequently Asked Questions.

Other sizes of containers are available.

Typical Observations

GD-401 is a proprietary formula of molybdenum compounds in SAE 80W-90 weight mineral oil. The flash point is greater than 399oF (ASTM* D 93 PMCC). The particle size of the molybdenum disulfide is less than one micron.

Before and after Tests: American Society of Testing Materials ASTM D 4172 Modified to 100oC and 8 hours.

Brand A 80W-90 gear oil was tested, and the same oil was tested after treatment with GD-401

Result: GD-401 has reduced wear 75%.

Brand B: 80W-90 gear oil was tested, and the same oil was tested after treatment with GD-401

Result: GD-401 has reduced wear 95%

* American Society for Testing Materials

 

How To Use

For 1 quart of oil, replace 4 oz. of plain oil with 4 oz. of Guard Dog. (The mixture ratio is 1:8.   For example, 1 gallon of gear oil (8 pints) requires taking out 1 pint of oil and replacing it with 1 pint (16 oz.) of Guard Dog.)

About 10% of the molybdenum disulfide will settle when a container has been stationary for thirty days. Before use, shake the container vigorously for fifteen seconds.   The moly will return into suspension.

**********************************************************

Comments: The particle size is smaller (< 1 micron vs 3.8 microns for Molykote A), and the dosage is 1:8 for gear oil, instead of 1:20 for Molycote A (normal-load gear oil applications). So for our bevel drives, the proper dose of this product for normal loads would be calculated like this .125(.23 + .02) = .031 liters of Guard Dog, plus .25 - .03 = .22 liters of gear oil. For heavy loads, which Guzzi used for its calculations, I would double the Guard Dog, giving .25(.22 + .03) = .06 liters of the product plus (.25 - .06) = .19 liters of gear oil. This is 6 or 12 teaspoons, for normal and heavy loads, compared to Guzzi's heavy-load spec of 4 teaspoons of Molykote A, and not forgetting to reduce the amount of gear oil correspondingly.

Guard Dog has less than half the concentration of moly compared to Molykote A, judging by the recommended doses. It does not appear to be a direct substitute for Molykote A, making me wonder whether Harper's moly might be closer.

M

[Moto]

Here is more information on a Harper's product. I found another web page on Harper's site describing their product as "'Guard Dog' Moly... better known as SLA 1261 Moly Additive", in a 3 ounce bottle: http://www.harpermotoguzzi.com/molyadditive.htm.

I then found a spec for SLA 1261 under the label "BONDERITE S-AD 1261 ACHESON ADDITIVE (KNOWN AS SLA 1261)": http://www.palmerholland.com/Assets/User/Documents/Product/43173/19/MITM04848.pdf.

Whether the Harper's "'Guard Dog' Moly... better known as SLA 1261 Moly Additive" product, listed at 3 ounces, is the same as the 60ml (i.e. 2 oz.) bottle that currently appears on their page when you search for moly seems doubtful. Whether it is the same as MG Cycle's Guard Dog is also a good question. Finally, its relationship to "BONDERITE S-AD 1261 ACHESON ADDITIVE (KNOWN AS SLA 1261)" is also unknown.

I'm giving up this pursuit for a while, to go wrench in the garage.

Moto

[leafman60]

I've read some of the disclaimers about moly mixing with some synthetics but I have done that for years and never had issues.

.

[charlie b]

I only know that when I use synthetic gear oil in the transmission, it leaks out the shifter shaft area.  When I use std gear oil it does not.  For the rear end I use use plain gear oil with the moly (MG Cycle version).  So far it works well.  I did have to replace the seals after 92k miles so maybe that isn't good enough :)

[Arizona Wayne]

Ya know, some old wives tales never die.  I've been riding 5?(744cc-949cc) Guzzi MCs for 30 years and NONE of them have ever had any moly in their rear ends that I put there!!!  I use GL5 oil, sometimes dino, some times semi-synthetic oil.  Never all synthetic oil.  Never had any rearend oil issues whatsoever in at least 200K miles.  Give this subject a rest, for God's sake.