(NGC) - Help with TV antenna please

[Gliderjohn]

We decided to cut out Direct TV and go over the air. Sometime back I bought a little boosted indoor antenna for about $30. That allowed me to get 17 stations but only one of the three network stations on one TV and eight stations on the other TV with only one network station.
I recently bought a large passive outdoor antenna that is suppose to be good up to 80 miles. My furthest tower is about 40 miles. For the last couple of weeks I had it mounted close to the house wall on a T-post only four feet in the air. Our deck and elevated gazebo were in front of it. Reception was the same as I was getting with the indoor antenna.
Today I mounted it about 12 feet in the air with a totally clear path. Now my reception is only four channels on one TV and none on the other. I have double checked all connections and have tried rotating the antenna different  ways with no improvement or it gets even worse. Any ideas? Am I missing something obvious here? I expected much better reception after elevating it. I live in a flat area of Kansas so hills are not a problem.
GuzziJohn

[Triple Jim]

What feed line are you using?
How carefully have you aimed the antenna? (find out the compass direction for the transmitting antennas and set your antenna that direction)
Is the antenna's designed band the same as the TV transmitters you're trying to receive? (VHF vs. UHF)
How are you feeding two TVs from one antenna? (splitter or amplifier with splitter?  Indoor amplifier or mast mounted amplifier?)

[papatom]

My wife couldn't stand the sight of an outdoor antenna on a pole, so I put the thing up in the houses attic.  Mounted it on a piece of PVC so I could rotate it to the best direction.  Both houses we did this with we could pick up all the local and some distant stations. Height is your friend for reception.

[Triple Jim]

Height is your friend for reception.

It sure is.  12 feet is not very high, and results in a radio horizon about 4 miles away.  Luckily the transmitter towers are much higher than 12 feet, but still, you might find that going to 25 feet up makes a big difference.  My TV antenna is an 8 bay bow tie UHF type, about 65 feet above ground on a tower, and I receive TV stations in Raleigh, which are about 50-60 miles south of me, very nicely.  A Motorola cable TV type amplifier mounted at the antenna and feeding 75 ohm hardline gives me enough signal at the house to run several TVs. 

[rodekyll]

Aside from what's been said -- you can get supplemental antennas for specific frequencies (channels), and also to point in other directions if your source towers are every-which-way.  There used to be little motorized bases for the antennas that could sense the signal rotate to home in on it.

Is your roof metal?  It could be sucking up the signal.  I host a computer at my shop that monitors the local broadcast tv for some reason.  We had a heck of a time trying to receive a broadcast even though the transmitter is visible from my window a few blocks away.  The tin roof was attenuating the signal.  Finally we put one antenna lead on the tin roof and the other into the ground, and found that we got better reception that way.

[LowRyter]

all that works now are simple UHF antennas.  If you have the only VFH or if the UHF portion is blocked or inhibited then you won't get reception.  You will also need a digital receiver if you have an old TV. 

I am only restating the obvious ....

[Gliderjohn]

Thanks for the replys. I measured it and it is at 18'. Previously it was at 4ft. with much better reception. House roof is composite shingles. Have rotated it a few degrees at a time, stopped and check reception, little difference. I will look at the setup again tomorrow. I was running out if daylight plus had a thunderstorm approaching so I might have missed something from being in a hurry toward the end. TVs are both digital Samsungs.
GliderJohn

[oldbike54]

 Do NOT ask me to explain this , but we have one of those little inside amplified antenna , normally setting about 8 ft from the ground . We are 45 miles from the nearest broadcast antenna , mostly flat country between . Some days it works best laying on the floor , face down , some days and at different times of day , it works best perched on a metal rack oriented a certain way , and very rarely it must be held against a human body to work . Mostly we receive 14 or 15 stations , some duplicates.

 Dusty

[Wayne Orwig]

I know nothing. Well, I admit to nothing.
This is my job site:





I work on transmitters and receivers way too many hours a day, week, month, year after year.

What you say, makes it sound to me like you simply have a failed cable or connector. I would look at that closely first.
If not, then it is possible that you raise the antenna and hit a null. Notice my antenna in the photo on that mast, can be raised and lower to avoid those. But at the height we mentioned, that shouldn't be an issue.
Another possibility is that you have a nearby strong TV or FM station, and by raising the antenna, you just overloaded the front end on the TV. But that typically only happens if you have a preamp on the antenna and those broadband preamps gets overloaded easily.

[rodekyll]

Do NOT ask me to explain this , but we have one of those little inside amplified antenna , normally setting about 8 ft from the ground . We are 45 miles from the nearest broadcast antenna , mostly flat country between . Some days it works best laying on the floor , face down , some days and at different times of day , it works best perched on a metal rack oriented a certain way , and very rarely it must be held against a human body to work . Mostly we receive 14 or 15 stations , some duplicates.

 Dusty

Except for the number of stations, that's exactly how I work best.  Some duplicates.

[rboe]

My guess is you moved the antenna into a null zone. We have a Yagi antenna (see photo OMG has, just like that one) mounted on the swamp cooler: We have a metal roof. The whole affair is in the middle of the roof. The antenna is on a mount off the side of the swamp cooler about 3 feet up, about 6 above the roof. We have a very low roof so the whole thing is not that high.

I have the antenna pointed towards South Mountain about 20+ miles away but North Mountain is in the way so the signals are probably reflected through a valley. We pick up about 80 stations, for the most part it looks better than the cable signal we had.

There are web sites that will help you in pointing the antenna (many are like the yagi in that they are highly directional - which means excellent gain, but if they are off they no work so well). Check them out if you have not done that yet. My two cents.

[atavar]

I will agree that it sounds like when you raised the antenna you introduced a bad cable or connector.  I too have cut the cord and here in Sioux Falls with my antenna about six feet off the ground hiding in some bushes I get about 28 OTA channels.
For others that are doing this don't cheap out on the antenna or cables.  Get the best you can afford. Mount it as high as you can.  I opted to go with an omni that cost me about $80 but it has great reception and I don't need to aim it for different transmitters.

The other extravagance I am glad I did was to get a channelmaster PVR.  The initial cost for this is a few hundred bucks up front but it gets you an on screen guide and lets you schedule recordings from OTA channels with NO monthly subscription as well as managing your internet streams.  The TIVO OTA box is maybe nicer but that has a monthly subscription cost and their tech support sucks.  If you want a TIVO I'll sell you one cheap.

[Gliderjohn]

Some progress this morning. I replaced the new splitter that came from the antenna company and put the old splitter back on and now I have reception back to both TVs that is at about the same level as before raising the antenna. It may be that I need a booster here. Will keep playing with it. Thanks to all's help other.
GliderJohn

[atavar]

look closely at splitters, some times the gozintas and gozoutas are not well labeled or placed where you would expect them.  It is easy to mis-connect them.
Also, all splitters are not created equal, some have much better frequency and loss characteristics.  Just because it has three ports does not mean it is suitable for your application.

[Lannis]

All this work ... and when you're done, all you've accomplished is the enabling of the invasion of the skanky, commercial-filled wasteland that is broadcast TV into your house?

I'm thinking additional shielding might be better ....   

[atavar]

All this work ... and when you're done, all you've accomplished is the enabling of the invasion of the skanky, commercial-filled wasteland that is broadcast TV into your house?

I'm thinking additional shielding might be better ....   

Better than the skanky commercial filled cable wasteland that you pay hundreds a month for.  Covering the bottom third of content you paid for with a commercial should be illegal.  That's why I love having an OTA PVR, easy to skip commercials of recorded broadcast programming.  Nothing you can do when the cable providers overlay commercials on to what you are watching.

[Triple Jim]

By definition, a 2-way splitter reduces the signal a little more than 3 dB at each output, which means there is only about half the signal going to each TV that you had from the antenna. 

Also, the feedline between the antenna and the TVs is not perfect and absorbs some of the signal.  That's why I asked what feedline you're using.  At UHF frequencies, typical RG-59 cable will attenuate more than 9 dB per 100 feet, which means you'll have only 1/8 of the signal you started with, if you have 100 feet of feedline.  Even with 50 feet, you'll lose about 2/3 of your signal.

The easiest way to prevent losing too much signal is to put a good amplifier at the antenna.  If you amplify it with a Motorola broadband drop amplifier, you'll gain 15 dB at the antenna, so you can lose 10 dB in the feedline and 3 at the splitter, and still not fall below what the antenna provides.  Amplifying at the antenna is necessary because if you amplify it at the house end, you'll be amplifying noise along with the signal, lowering your signal to noise ratio and probably not helping with the goal.

I'm using a couple Motorola 484095-001-00 amplifiers on two antennas I have 65 feet up on a tower, and they've worked flawlessly for years, though dozens of thunderstorms.  Unfortunately I see they've been discontinued, and I haven't found their replacement yet.  The were something around $60 new when I bought mine.

Edit:  It looks like there are other amplifiers like the Motorola cheaply available with a good warranty: 
https://www.amazon.com/Electroline-EDA2100-Bi-Directional-Amplifier-Warranty/dp/B000F3RKJ6

[rboe]

When I bought my Samsung phone, there was an Android app pre-loaded called Peel Smart Remote. It has your local TV schedule and can probably control your TV (it does ours). It needs to know your zip code and how you get your TV signal (and the brand of your TV for the remote to work).

It has been a godsend at times when it comes to seeing what is on TV. If you have an Andriod phone - recommended.

For connections I cheated. I ran the antenna feed to the splitter COX cable put on the house. Unplugged the cable feed and plugged in the antenna feed. COX repair guy knows I did this - no comment from him.

[atavar]

For connections I cheated. I ran the antenna feed to the splitter COX cable put on the house. Unplugged the cable feed and plugged in the antenna feed. COX repair guy knows I did this - no comment from him.

That's not cheating, you paid for that splitter and all the cable in and on your house.  You can do whatever you want with it.

[LowRyter]

with all these new over the air channels, I am wondering how long it will be before some of the cable channels (other than QVC) come over the air like they are invading the internet. 

Once the figure out a revenue stream perhaps the cable will be a thing of the past.  Perhaps the net will kill it first? 

[pikipiki]

with all these new over the air channels, I am wondering how long it will be before some of the cable channels (other than QVC) come over the air like they are invading the internet. 

Once the figure out a revenue stream perhaps the cable will be a thing of the past.  Perhaps the net will kill it first?

you can surely get all that crap along with public service channels on free satalite transmission already? terestrial band width is usually more expensive than satelite these days (because there's less of it) you may actually also have some decent channels free via satelite. when your talking long antenna poles satelite probably works out cheaper too.

[LaMojo]

Go to tvfool.com and enter your location and antenna height.   This will give you a list of the stations you should be able to receive. By clicking on the button next to the call sign, it will give station location and miles from your location.   List also shows VHF and UHF frequencies for each station.  I would spend some money on a good antenna rotor, VHF/UFH antenna, signal amplifier for antenna. (anp outside near antenna).  Remember when you use a splitter you are also splitting the available signal strength in half for each TV.  For best reception for each TV, buy a powered splitter.  Beware that some splitters may only work for cable frequencies.   

[atavar]

The basic spec for splitters for OTA is they *must* have a frequency range of about 100-700 MHz.  If your splitter is wider than that it is probably good. 
A two way splitter will send a little less than half of the signal power to each output.  When you get more outputs it gets stranger.  Some 3-way splitters will send a little less than a third to each output, others will send a little less than half to one output and a little less than a fourth to the other two (think of a splitter hooked to a splitter).  More ports can get more complicated.
To go to more than two outputs a distribution amplifier (amplified splitter) is probably the best way to go, but is more expensive and requires power. 
Be aware that amplifiers also increase noise levels, so you can't just keep daisy chaining amps and splitters to cover a large installation. Better to get one more expensive distribution amplifier with enough output ports to satisfy your needs.
Amplifiers should be located as close to the antenna as possible.

[Gliderjohn]

Up to 17 channels on both TVs. I had to use a 100' cable but needed about 65 feet of it so when I can pick up an end I will cut it down. One to the splitter lines are probably another 30' or so to the TVs. Using the old lines run by Direct TV in the house.
GliderJohn

[atavar]

Consider putting an amp as close to the antenna as possible.  A weatherproof one at the pole powered by a coax power injector in the house, or an amp just inside the entry to the house. 

[M0T0Geezer]

IFF you have a reliable and fairly fast Internet feed into your house (that can be via fibre, cable, or wireless) then you can just hookup a streaming device to your Internet Service Provider.  The best is ROKU which one can buy at Wal-Mart for $100 (one time purchase, no contract, no fees). Or, buy direct:

 https://www.roku.com/

You need one ROKU for each TV (I have 3 ROKUs in my home).  Highly recommended (by me).  There are literally hundreds of free Roku channels that include Fox News Network, Fox Business News, YouTube, VIVO, Pandora, Smithsonian, PBS and too many more to list.

With ROKU you really can cut the Cable TV off, provided you don't kill your internet feed in doing so.

DSL (via copper phone line) is too slow for streaming Netflix & other video services.

Wireless Internet (not "Wi-Fi") is often available in rural areas.

[rdbandkab]

We just cut "the cable" except for internet of course.

We did 2 things.   Bought an HD outdoor antenae and subscribed to Sling TV. 
I purchased a ROKU 2 to make life easier for my better half.   It has a remote that keeps her in familiar territory and it has a button already for Sling TV.  (if I lived alone,  I would probably just have Sling on a tablet and cast it where ever I wanted.)
We subscribed to Sling TV for live streaming of regular tv and also streaming of stuff like MotoGP qualifying and races.  We purchased a MOHU Sky 60 HD antennae for the local affiliates.   We get about 15 high def stations in 1080 using the MOHU 60.  From what I understand,  Comcast was feeding us 720.

For programs on MAVtv,  I'll cast them from my pc (or device) to my tv.

Now I just need to drop Comcast's phone package.  As soon as my wife is comfortable with the tv change,  I'm going to unplug the home landline cord from the recently purchased VTech system that allows Bluetooth pairing to our Droids.    If you call my Droid when I'm home,  I can pick it up on a more substantial feeling handset at any of the remote phones I'm near.

richy

[PeteS]

I have an older Radio Shack outdoor antenna on my roof about 40 ft off the ground. Reception with the new digital channels is about 60 miles. With the old analog channels it was about 90 miles but with digital its either good or off. Solid Signal is a good place for antennas, amps and rotors. If you spring for a new antenna Winegards are good quality.
I also have three rokus. You can get Roku 2s on ebay for about 50 bucks. Just make sure its the newer 4210 which is as fast as a roku 3 but without voice command. Who needs that anyway.
Between the over the air channels and Sling we get about 50 channels.

Pete

[LowRyter]

you can surely get all that crap along with public service channels on free satalite transmission already? terestrial band width is usually more expensive than satelite these days (because there's less of it) you may actually also have some decent channels free via satelite. when your talking long antenna poles satelite probably works out cheaper too.

I don't know how to get Satellite stuff.  I can get all the local channels with a $5 dollar antenna from the drug store.  I still buy cable (MotoGP content).  the wife watches tons of shows from net. 

[ITSec]

We just cut "the cable" except for internet of course.

We did 2 things.   Bought an HD outdoor antenae and subscribed to Sling TV. 
I purchased a ROKU 2 to make life easier for my better half.   It has a remote that keeps her in familiar territory and it has a button already for Sling TV.  (if I lived alone,  I would probably just have Sling on a tablet and cast it where ever I wanted.)
We subscribed to Sling TV for live streaming of regular tv and also streaming of stuff like MotoGP qualifying and races.  We purchased a MOHU Sky 60 HD antennae for the local affiliates.   We get about 15 high def stations in 1080 using the MOHU 60.  From what I understand,  Comcast was feeding us 720.

For programs on MAVtv,  I'll cast them from my pc (or device) to my tv.

Now I just need to drop Comcast's phone package.  As soon as my wife is comfortable with the tv change,  I'm going to unplug the home landline cord from the recently purchased VTech system that allows Bluetooth pairing to our Droids.    If you call my Droid when I'm home,  I can pick it up on a more substantial feeling handset at any of the remote phones I'm near.

richy

A couple of comments. Roku is my choice as well for broadband streaming, and can be bought more cheaply than people have mentioned. One way (if you are planning to subscribe to Sling) is that if you subscribe to Sling for three months, you can get a free Roku 2 (new generation, which is a Roku3 with a simpler remote). Pay $60-75 bucks for Sling, get a Roku that would cost $60-80 in the store. Brilliant.

Something most people don't realize is HD numbers are deceptive. Many programs/channels are advertised as being in 1080. That's great, much better than 720, right? Well, not so fast - the 720 is almost always 720p (non-interlaced) and the 1080 is almost always 1080i (interlaced). Once you sort things out, 1080i and 720p are effectively exactly the same resolution.