CARC bikes, slow cranking starter?

[pyoungbl]

Over the past year or so I have noticed that my '12 Stelvio was having more and more problems getting started.  Sounds like me getting out of bed...but that's another problem.  At any rate, push the starter button and I hear the starter give the engine an initial push...then nothing...like the starter is building up steam...then the engine starts to spin and away we go.  Startus Inturruptus?  Battery?  Starter?  Wiring?  I attacked each of those possible solutions.  Got the kit from MPH, checked the battery, had the starter tested, installed larger wires from the battery to ground and battery to starter.  I even took the starter switch apart.  Nothing made any difference......unt il...There is a spade connector on the solenoid.  A purple 16GA wire pushes on.  This brings power from the starter button to trip the solenoid.  A good dose of DeOxit cleaned whatever gunk was on the connector and now the bike starts like new.  Cost...NADA! Learn from my experience.

[Jdcooper]

I have a Stelvio and an 1100 Breva (which is, essentially a naked Norge) which have the SAME symptoms.  Thanks for your write-up !
Any chance post a picture ?

[pyoungbl]

No photos.  All you have to do is take off the starter cover (2 screws) and you will find the space connector on the other side of the battery cable.  It's a simple push on connection.  If that does not fix the problem I'd install the kit from MPH.  You are just trying to get the most amps to that terminal.  The OEM wiring  chart shows that circuit going through a bunch of connections, the kit will probably help.

[drums4money]

Nice tip. I'll be checking this!

[PJPR01]

Good one....filed away in the memory bank for a future reference!  Thank you.

[Lannis]

Hmmm.   Don't quite understand.

The solenoid is either "In" or "Out", isn't it?   

I can see a bad connection on that wire failing to pull the solenoid "In", but I don't see how that could cause the starter to turn over slowly.   That current comes through the big red cable.

Unless the current passed through the solenoid is dependent on how "hard" the coil is holding the solenoid contact in place?    I didn't think they worked that way ....

Lannis

[Wayne Orwig]

Hmmm.   Don't quite understand.
The solenoid is either "In" or "Out", isn't it?   
I can see a bad connection on that wire failing to pull the solenoid "In", but I don't see how that could cause the starter to turn over slowly.   That current comes through the big red cable.

Unless the current passed through the solenoid is dependent on how "hard" the coil is holding the solenoid contact in place?    I didn't think they worked that way ....

You are correct. I was wondering the same thing.

I think he means that it would take a long time to initially pull the solenoid.

Like trying to find out from someone what exactly is going on when the call it 'startus interuptus' , and the problem is actually a dead battery. Their description doesn't line up with mine, so a long line of questions is needed.

[pyoungbl]

Hi Lannis, I'm actually with you on this.  I thought the two were totally independent...that the solenoid just kicked the starter gear over to the flywheel and then the starter pulled its power directly from the battery.  There must be a minimum number of amps that it takes to get a good enough contact for the starter to get full battery voltage.  When I had a starter guy take my starter apart and look at it he said that everything looked just fine.  The starter worked when he tested it electrically.  Of course, he was getting a full 12V hit at the solenoid.  I think this is the key to the whole starter interruptus stuff.  When that spade connector is not getting enough amps the starter does not get the amps it needs either.

[Kiwi_Roy]

You are correct. I was wondering the same thing.

I think he means that it would take a long time to initially pull the solenoid.

Like trying to find out from someone what exactly is going on when the call it 'startus interuptus' , and the problem is actually a dead battery. Their description doesn't line up with mine, so a long line of questions is needed.

 :1: sometimes it takes days to establish what they mean by "it won't start"

[Lannis]

Hi Lannis, I'm actually with you on this.  I thought the two were totally independent...that the solenoid just kicked the starter gear over to the flywheel and then the starter pulled its power directly from the battery.  There must be a minimum number of amps that it takes to get a good enough contact for the starter to get full battery voltage.  When I had a starter guy take my starter apart and look at it he said that everything looked just fine.  The starter worked when he tested it electrically.  Of course, he was getting a full 12V hit at the solenoid.  I think this is the key to the whole starter interruptus stuff.  When that spade connector is not getting enough amps the starter does not get the amps it needs either.

Just seems to me that there might also be a problem with the solenoid contacts (dirty/corroded maybe) if the current that the solenoid will pass is dependent on how "hard" the solenoid coil is pulling the core.   If everything's right, contact is contact, and nothing's going to turn over "slow".

I know you said you tested the battery, but was that with a battery load tester, where you actually pull 60 amps on the battery and make sure the voltage stays 12+ while it's doing it?   A battery that read good on a voltmeter but wouldn't pull full starter voltage would give exactly the symptoms you describe ...

Locally, I must be one of the ONLY guys who ever heard of a battery load tester, because I have a reputation now as a sort of wizard or witch doctor when I diagnose people's electrical problems using it .....

Lannis

[pyoungbl]

I took the battery (it's about 9 months old, 250 CCA rated) to Batteries Plus where they did a load test and said that the battery was in great shape.  When I had the starter at the starter shop on Monday he said basically the same thing about the starter.  He tested the starter and the solenoid after actually taking the starter apart for a visual inspection.  Funny, in our 1.2 million person region we only have two starter/generator shops left.  All the auto/boat repair people just swap out starters, don't repair any more.

I'd like to hear from someone who actually knows the fine points about this starter/solenoid arrangement, how many amps are required to make a good contact to make the starter operate.  Bottom line, my problem seems to be solved.  If it takes throwing salt over my left shoulder to make this sucker work, I'll start carrying salt in my tank bag!

Peter Y.

[leafman60]

In deference to the experience of my old (I mean, long-time) friend, PYoung, I wired up a solenoid booster circuit on my Stelvio just in case!

It's very simple and probably similar in function to the kits that some people are selling.  It all cost me maybe 2-3 dollars for a small relay and about 10 inches of wire.

The solenoid connector is a standard push-on terminal situated BEHIND the solenoid main battery terminal in a hard-to-get place.  The objective is to install a relay that will be triggered by this stock solenoid trigger wire and direct full current from the main battery cable attached by the big nut to the rear of the solenoid to the solenoid terminal to which the trigger wire was normally attached.

All you need is a few short pieces of wire ( I used #12 for good measure ), and a standard 20-30 amp relay sourced from any auto supply ( I used one of the compact Guzzi relays sold by Dan Prunuske http://www.dpguzzi.com/relay.htm). 


Procedure-

1. Remove the plastic starter cover. Unhook one of the battery cables at the battery.

2. Remove the top large nut holding the battery wire to the back of the solenoid after prying back the rubber protector. Using a ring connector, attach a short piece of wire under the nut and reinstall the nut.  Using a push-on terminal, attach the other end of this wire to the #30 tab on the new relay. 

3. Using a short piece of wire with push-on terminals on both ends, attach the #87 relay tab to the solenoid trigger connector on the back side of the solenoid. This can be the most difficult part since you work in a somewhat blind area. Once you find the male and slip the female over it, I suggest using a zip tie to secure this wire to one of the large wires to steady it and prevent it from working off the solenoid connector.

What this does is provide a circuit to direct full current from the positive battery cable to the solenoid when the relay is triggered.

4. Attach the stock relay wire you removed from the solenoid to the #86 new relay tab and then run a ground wire from the #85 relay terminal  to a suitable ground.  I used the outboard  starter motor case bolt at the rear of the starter motor.

5. Wrap the contacts of the relay with electrical tape to help weatherproof it and use two-sided sticky tape (3M) to attach the relay to the frame, reinstall your plastic starter cover and reconnect your battery.


So, now, when you hit the starter button, the stock starter relay energizes the stock solenoid wire and that energizes the add-on relay.  The add-on relay then directs full current from the battery cable to the solenoid only inches away.  No voltage shortage there anymore.





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[Kiwi_Roy]

That add on relay will certainly give you a good starter engagement, I bet it engages in half the time it did before. My EV dropped from 40 milliseconds to 20 milliseconds when I did the SI fix on it.

I think though that just providing a better feed for the existing relay is adequate.

Peter Y,
            If you measure the Voltage at the solenoid spade connector or the switched terminal on the motor you will see how good the battery is, Battery Voltage while cranking is what it's all about. I am happy to see over 10.
You can also read the Voltage drop in the various parts of the circuit Battery + to motor, battery negative to chassis.  When reading these 2 jab the meter leads into the terminal post, not the lug.
You might be surprised how much Voltage you can lose between the battery post and the lug bolted to it, this can end up at 12 Volts if you don't use Vaseline on them to combat the onset of Lead Oxide.

Perhaps you inadvertently fixed a bad connection in the main wiring which improved the starting, I doubt cleaning the spade connector did it but then I have been wrong before.
Before the starter starts turning the current has dropped down to about 10 Amps through the solenoid coil, the solenoid is all the way in so it only takes a fraction of the magnetic field to hold it in place.

[Thunderbutt]

How appropriate this topic is posted again.  My new to me '08 Norge with 10,500 miles and always stored inside ran perfectly during my fly and ride after purchase.  It started fine after each of the four gas stops I made on the way home.  It has suddenly started blowing the 15 amp fuse on the fused orange wire coming off the battery on the MPH pig tail which was installed as a precautionary measure by the previous owner.  I switch the key on, wait for the gauges to return to the normal position, then as soon as I hit the starter button the fuse blows.  After placing a new fuse in the pig-tail, the bike will fire right up and run fine.  When I return home I shut the bike off and restart it 6 or 7 times without a problem.  I have removed the battery cables, cleaned the cable ends as well as the terminals which has not cured the problem.  I just finished inspecting the terminals on the starter motor and they look like new.  I then removed and checked the 16ga wire to the solenoid and it looked fine also.  Should I replace that 16ga yellow/orange wire from the starter relay to the solenoid with a heavier gauge wire?  My battery shows 13volts ignition off, 12.8 ignition turned "on", then drops to 10.8 when the starter button is engaged.  I get 12.7v at the main wires on the starter and 10.7v when the starter is engaged.
Not sure if this is the actual startus interruptus situation but it has been very frustrating.  Looking for suggestions .

Jerry

[Kiwi_Roy]

First of all the fuse should be 20 Amps not 15, the current to pull the solenoid in is on the order of 45 Amps
Blows immediately or after about 1 second?
You can isolate a potential short by pulling the spade connector off the solenoid, this should make the current zero.

What exactly is the MPH fix.

[Thunderbutt]

Kiwi-Roy- If it blows, it usually blows immediately upon touching the starter button. That is the frustrating part about this, it is not consistent.

 The MPH fix was a pigtail with male and female ends.  The lower or male end plugged into the socket previously occupied by the starter relay.  Three wires, a red, a black, and a blue wire extend approximately six inches to the female socket which the starter relay now plugs into.  There is also an orange fused (15amp) wire feeding into the relay at one end and wired to the battery (+) terminal.  This 15 amp fuse on the orange wire is the one which keeps blowing.  The wires on the pig-tail are 12 and 14ga.

Are you certain about the 20amp fuse in the starting circuit?  Even the fuse on the main fuse block for the starter relay, passing and parking lights is only 15amp.  At least that is what was installed when I purchased the bike.  Just checked the Norge/Breva service manual and it shows 15 amps fuses.

Jerry

[leafman60]

How appropriate this topic is posted again.  My new to me '08 Norge with 10,500 miles and always stored inside ran perfectly during my fly and ride after purchase.  It started fine after each of the four gas stops I made on the way home.  It has suddenly started blowing the 15 amp fuse on the fused orange wire coming off the battery on the MPH pig tail which was installed as a precautionary measure by the previous owner.  I switch the key on, wait for the gauges to return to the normal position, then as soon as I hit the starter button the fuse blows.  After placing a new fuse in the pig-tail, the bike will fire right up and run fine.  When I return home I shut the bike off and restart it 6 or 7 times without a problem.  I have removed the battery cables, cleaned the cable ends as well as the terminals which has not cured the problem.  I just finished inspecting the terminals on the starter motor and they look like new.  I then removed and checked the 16ga wire to the solenoid and it looked fine also.  Should I replace that 16ga yellow/orange wire from the starter relay to the solenoid with a heavier gauge wire?  My battery shows 13volts ignition off, 12.8 ignition turned "on", then drops to 10.8 when the starter button is engaged.  I get 12.7v at the main wires on the starter and 10.7v when the starter is engaged.
Not sure if this is the actual startus interruptus situation but it has been very frustrating.  Looking for suggestions .

Jerry

If your solenoid isn't getting enough juice, the circuit I outlined above should fix your problem. No need to spend $40 for a kit.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Hi Jerry, I think there are several different MPH Fixes, thats why I asked. First of all I will explain the MPH fix
Before the fix the current from the battery goes up to the ignition switch then back down to a fuse and to the relay.
With a bit of age and corrosion the wiring through the ignition cannot supply enough current to pull the starter solenoid in, it just makes a quiet click of the relay.
The MPH fix by-passes the ignition switch and sends power through the new fuse and directly to the relay, less resistance = more current = quicker engagement.
The inrush current to the coil is about 45 Amps normally for about 40 milliseconds however if one of the main connections is loose or not making good contact the 45 Amps may remain, guess what happens to the fuse. I proved beyond a doubt that the fuse will blow in < 1 second.

I suggest you remove the battery connections and the main ground and clean up the metal, scrape the battery posts until they are nice and shiny then smear on some Vaseline, this will stop the lead oxidizing. Lead oxide is a perfect insulator
Once that is done you may find the problem is resolved, if not then back to the drawing board.
Read Note 1, this explains "Startus Interuptus"
I think the note to right of the battery may explain why your fuses are blowing.
The red dotted line from the relay terminal 30 through the fuse to battery + is pretty much the MPH fix?
 

[Huzo]

Hmmm.   Don't quite understand.

The solenoid is either "In" or "Out", isn't it?   

I can see a bad connection on that wire failing to pull the solenoid "In", but I don't see how that could cause the starter to turn over slowly.   That current comes through the big red cable.

Unless the current passed through the solenoid is dependent on how "hard" the coil is holding the solenoid contact in place?    I didn't think they worked that way ....

Lannis

In principle I have to agree you're correct Lannis and thought so as well. Given that the bike now starts more readily, I'd say that there's something else that's been done to the betterment of the works, but good on the owner for sharing and well worth knowing. (I didn't)...

[Thunderbutt]

Thank you so much for the diagram and explanation.  Many of us are "visual learners" and it helps to have the diagram along with the verbal explanation of how/why  things works. Thanks again!
Yes the red dotted line would be the MPH fix.  Looks like it supplies current to the starter relay in a more direct route.  And with my fuse blowing almost instantly after touching the starter button, with all cables and connections having been cleaned, does this mean the contacts inside the solenoid are corroded?  How do I fix that? Do you feel it would be hazardous to replace the 15amp fuse with a 20amp with the MPH fix?



Jerry

[Kiwi_Roy]

Jerry,
         When I first read your post I missed the part about you cleaning the terminals, I will look at the schematic again.
Just to be clear your bike starts normally when it does, not slow cranking, blows fuse sometimes, what percentage?
 
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
As I understand it the MPH fix extends Relay three 1,2 & 5 to a new socket but the yellow feed to 3 is replaced by a new feed direct from the battery.

I have no hands on experience with the Norge, Wayne has a good point about clutch dust and or contacts inside.

The wire will easily carry enough current to blow a 20 Amp fuse if it has to.

Roy

[Wayne Orwig]

Yes the red dotted line would be the MPH fix.  Looks like it supplies current to the starter relay in a more direct route.  And with my fuse blowing almost instantly after touching the starter button, with all cables and connections having been cleaned, does this mean the contacts inside the solenoid are corroded?  How do I fix that? Do you feel it would be hazardous to replace the 15amp fuse with a 20amp with the MPH fix?

The 15 amp fuse is a bit of a mistake on MPHs part. Their circuit eliminated the wiring harness and ignition switch, so the current is much higher. Yet they stayed with the same 15 amp fuse. If everything is well, the large inrush current won't blow the 15 amp fuse. But if the solenoid is a little tight, or there is a bit of clutch dust binding it, you get well over 30 amps as Kiwi pointed out, and that 15 amp fuse isn't going to last. I would go to a 20 amp for sure. I have done that on a couple of bikes now for people. That USUALLY does the trick. If that still blows, you may need to disassemble the starter and clean it. It is also possible that the contacts inside the starter are beginning to fail.

[blackcat]

The 15 amp fuse is a bit of a mistake on MPHs part. Their circuit eliminated the wiring harness and ignition switch, so the current is much higher. Yet they stayed with the same 15 amp fuse. If everything is well, the large inrush current won't blow the 15 amp fuse. But if the solenoid is a little tight, or there is a bit of clutch dust binding it, you get well over 30 amps as Kiwi pointed out, and that 15 amp fuse isn't going to last. I would go to a 20 amp for sure. I have done that on a couple of bikes now for people. That USUALLY does the trick. If that still blows, you may need to disassemble the starter and clean it. It is also possible that the contacts inside the starter are beginning to fail.

His bike has sat more than ran over the last 8 years.

[Thunderbutt]

Roy- the bike will usually spin right up when I hit the starter, not slow cranking.  Hard to tell what percentage is.  Sometimes it can sit for several days and fire right up.  I will ride it, shut it off for a couple hours and blow the fuse when I go to start it.  At first I thought it may be a low battery so I took the readings after the bike sat for several days on top of the cable which should indicate if there was corrosion between the terminal and cable lug. With ignition off I got 13 volts.  With ignition on -12.8, then dropped to 10.8 when I hit the starter button.  I did clean all the cable ends as well as the battery terminals just to eliminate the possibility and it made no difference. Also checked voltage at the starter main terminals- 12.7 ignition "on", then 10.7 when I hit the starter button.  Doesnt sound like a bad battery, or faulty wiring to me but there has got to be some resistance somewhere in the system that is causing this.

Wayne- I removed the starter from the bike to inspect the wire to the solenoid as well as clean the main terminal connections.  Everything looked brand spankin new.  No dust, dirt or corrosion which has been the frustating part about this.  the problem is so intermittent, it would be so much easier to track down if it consistently blew the fuse. I will try the 20 amp fuse in the MPH fix and report back how that works.  Cant thank you enough for your advice guys.

Jerry