T3 Clutch recommendations?

[wirespokes]

I've come to the conclusion after five thousand miles this clutch (fairly new) installed by a PO close to 15 years ago isn't going to get any better. When warm, there's no feathering it. It's really hard on the driveline as is, besides being difficult to control. It's got the deeper 4mm hub (looking at the receipt). Also confirming it's got the deeper hub, the replaced shallow hub and old discs are in the box of parts I got with the bike.

So I'm looking at replacing clutch discs.

I'm guessing the Sureflex is what I've got now, so don't want another! No thank you!!!

Moto International says the stock Guzzi clutch disc is the only one they'll stand by, but at close to $100 each that's looking a bit spendy. Is that really the only way to go? Have you tried anything else and gotten good mileage out of it?

Let me know what's worked for you and a good place to get it.

[guzzista]

Lots of folks on this forum are happy with the SD TEC clutch discs.  Other choice that has worked well for me are the ones from Mark Etheridge at Guzzi Classics in SoCal. http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=1165    http://www.motoguzziclassics.com/MGCParts2.asp

[swooshdave]

Is that why you weren't at breakfast?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Lots of folks on this forum are happy with the SD TEC clutch discs.  Other choice that has worked well for me are the ones from Mark Etheridge at Guzzi Classics in SoCal. http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=1165    http://www.motoguzziclassics.com/MGCParts2.asp

^^ This. I'm not sure Mark is having clutch plates relined any more though. I've been using the SD-TEC plates on all of my customer's bikes and will be replacing "Barney's" grabby Sureflex with them soon also. 

[pehayes]

Might not be the plates.  You'll need a good inspection on the internal splines of the flywheel perimeter.  Might start searching for a good used flywheel on EBAY.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Wayne Orwig]

I have installed Sureflex plates. Not again. They tend to be too grabby.
I have installed factory plates. I would rather not. I once had a factory plate in a fairly new bike crack. I replaced that with factory plates, which also cracked not long after. Too much work to mess with that kind of crap.

Lately I have used these in the bikes I have worked on.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=1165

They do have one oddity. They must have a bit of a rough surface, so they wear down a LOT in the first 200-300 miles. Once they bed in, they stop wearing and they have a good feel.

[wirespokes]

No, Dave, that's not why I wasn't there. It was because I'd stayed up late working on the 'new' guzzi I just got. You guys warned me, but did I listen??? Well, yeah, but you didn't say how fast these things can multiply!

The new one has records almost back to when it was new. The second real owner in 96 took photos of it for the photo album, and the goofy fork brace was on it back then. It's actually a decent billet fork brace (not sure if one is needed, but since I have it...) decided to make it right yesterday afternoon. The billet brace had been added on top of the fender mount and looked goofy as hell. The fender mount, as it turns out, is a thin piece of aluminum with rivet-like aluminum bolts holding on the fender. The nuts had no flats and when grasped with vice grips, the whole thing turned. That was the first stumbling block. After a bit of head scratching, got out the dremel and ground off the nuts and that got it all apart.

The next problem was more difficult, and what took so long. The new fork brace had mounting holes, first off, in a non metric size. But more importantly, the threaded holes went straight up and down, rather than angling in to the fender so that the nuts could bottom on a flat surface. So I had to make angled washers. I can do quite a lot with my little HF lathe, but it can take a while sometimes. And then the studs didn't want to fit the holes in the fender so had to adjust things there a little. The next problem was that the brace was made to receive a flat piece of fender, not arced. So out came the dremel again to remove enough material so the fender tucked in there nicely with a snug fit. Must have spent a couple hours on that step alone. I must have started about three or four and didn't finish till 11. No dinner, nothing! Didn't wake up till 9:30 - so missed the breakfast entirely!

I see you've mounted the new seat. I would have liked to have seen what you did to make that happen.

If I had gotten up early enough, I'd have ridden the 'new' bike. It's a stunner. Or the T3, or any number of beemers. No shortage of bikes to ride! The T3 runs and is ride-able, but between the chrome bores and the clutch, it's probably best fixing those issues before putting more miles on it.

I guess I'll have to check into the SD clutch plates. They certainly are more reasonably priced. Any ideas of longevity? What's the longest one has gone at this point?

I don't expect to see flywheel damage, but you never know. With the way this thing grabs, who knows what harm it's done? And I don't know if the shop that replaced it back in 2002 eyeballed the flywheel. Anyone ever have a flywheel resurfaced?

[swooshdave]

The pictures of the new bike aren't loading!

As for the seat it's just shoved on.

[wirespokes]

I'm not great on pix - but I should take some and figure out how to post them. Been busy enough making things right on it and trying to get work done. And then, when the weather is half ways decent, have to get in saddle time. It's a bitch, but you do what you gotta do.

[Matteo]

For some reason my old I pad (first issue) was unable to post photos. My wife recently got me a new one and the difference is amazing.

[John A]

The last time I used a Sureflex clutch, it was for a friend. He was having trouble with it and never told me but bad mouthed me to others. I thought he was a friend and I made the mistake of feigning anger on a message I left on his phone. As a caution if you have problems with someone's work, by all means tell them. I believe most people are honest and would make a repair right if it wasn't. Rant over, I don't like Sureflex clutch discs either.

[5154guzzi]

Another thing to check,   I had a Lemans 1000 with a recent clutch, that was real grabby. It turned out the rear end  pinion gear bolts had backed off.  The rear end would pogo as the clutch was released.     The SD Tec clutch is the way to go, if you need new plates.

 Bill

[swooshdave]

I'm not great on pix - but I should take some and figure out how to post them. Been busy enough making things right on it and trying to get work done. And then, when the weather is half ways decent, have to get in saddle time. It's a bitch, but you do what you gotta do.

Ok, can you at least tell us what bike it is?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

From his ADV Rider posts, I'm guessing a '77 T3?

[swooshdave]

From his ADV Rider posts, I'm guessing a '77 T3?

So there's a second one?

[wirespokes]

No - it's not another T3. It's a low miles, extremely well taken care of 1987 LeMans. That swooped up rear end has never been a favorite of mine, but the more I ride the bike, the less it bugs me. It's got the 18" front wheel not the 16, Ohlins rear shocks and a Corbin. I wasn't sure I'd like the way-forward clip-ons and the rear-set pegs, but I'm finding it quite comfortable. The steering feels a little odd - maybe it's the clip-ons angling from in front of the fork tubes. As with any new bike, I'm sorting things out and setting things right. Today it was getting the right side petcock to not seep and replacing the rear gas tank grommet where it sets down on the knobbed pin that holds it. The original grommet was badly split and was lucky to find a hardware store that carried one comparable. The first hardware store six miles to the west didn't have it, but found it at the one 8 miles to the east of me. I'll know better next time which to try first.

I'll try to get some pix up of the bike. It's my loudest one yet... I think it's got Bubs.

5154guzzi - With a scenario like backed-out bolts, it would have misbehaved all the time, not just when warmed up. Right? That's what makes me feel it's the Sureflex - that's been part of the description in the cases I've heard.

John A - I totally agree with you. It's best for all concerned to keep things in the open and deal with the truth. Not always easy, and sometimes quite an adventure, but it can be surprising how things turn out when dealing with life that way - not always what you'd think. I'm not sure why you brought this up - mind explaining? In my case, I'm doing a bit of detective work looking back through the records and see that the clutch hub was replaced with the deeper 4mm version. And this was done in about 2002 as I recall. There's an MG or Harpers part number on the receipt, but don't know if that will tell me if it's a Surflex or what. I'm sure not blaming anyone - it sounds like Guzzis had a problem with clutches for a while - and my bike's one of them. I haven't pulled one of these apart, so it'll be a learning experience - shouldn't be too tough, but you know how it is the first time around. And it's always longer the first time with a new bike fixing whatever shows up. Hope the front engine bolt isn't frozen in. Then again, I shouldn't have to remove it if it won't come.

I'm pretty sure the bike sat quite a bit, so wondered if some corrosion had built up on the splines, and that was the reason for the grabbiness. Maybe it is, but still that doesn't explain why it works ok when cold, but not when hot.

[John A]

I just brought it up because it was the last clutch job I did and it went wrong. That particular bike, a 98EV, had its clutch replaced previously. The owner supplied the new discs and floater. When I took it apart the discs in it were Sureflex. The same as the new ones. What I realized after it was done was that it had an alignment problem between the clutch and gearbox that caused short clutch life. I learned from Bob Nolan ( rip) how to fix that but I had started treating the customer as a brother and it evidently offended him so he quit talking to me but went behind my back and bad mouthed me. That's too bad, I would have enjoyed fixing it and would have done it free.  I consider Surflex discs light duty because of my own experience with them.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Two brands of friction plates that I never use and when I find them in a Guzzi, go right into the recycling bin: Sureflex and Barnett. The former not only have issues with being extremely "grabby", but also have spline design issues. The latter seem to be okay friction material wise, but the splined center is made out three pieces of stamped steel riveted together and they tend to wear out hubs very quickly.

Wirespokes: the Sureflex plates in my '71 Ambassador are exactly as you describe: fine when cold, super grabby when hot.

[John A]

I agree with Charlie, my experience with the clutch discs is the same. took a while to get it thru my thick head except for the Barnett I just looked at them and determined they were junk. I like their springs though.

[5154guzzi]

Wirespokes,   The lemans was grabby on takeoff all the time, hot or cold.

[swooshdave]

No - it's not another T3. It's a low miles, extremely well taken care of 1987 LeMans. That swooped up rear end has never been a favorite of mine, but the more I ride the bike, the less it bugs me. It's got the 18" front wheel not the 16, Ohlins rear shocks and a Corbin. I wasn't sure I'd like the way-forward clip-ons and the rear-set pegs, but I'm finding it quite comfortable. The steering feels a little odd - maybe it's the clip-ons angling from in front of the fork tubes. As with any new bike, I'm sorting things out and setting things right. Today it was getting the right side petcock to not seep and replacing the rear gas tank grommet where it sets down on the knobbed pin that holds it. The original grommet was badly split and was lucky to find a hardware store that carried one comparable. The first hardware store six miles to the west didn't have it, but found it at the one 8 miles to the east of me. I'll know better next time which to try first.

I'm actually offended you didn't invite me over to drool on your new toy. 

[Matteo]

I'm actually offended you didn't invite me over to drool on your new toy. 

And to first read about it on the forum

[wirespokes]

Thanks for confirming what I suspected. I see some SD discs in my future.

I guess my next question is what to watch out for doing this job. I've got to either pull the rear frame bolts and tilt the engine down, or remove both and drop everything out the bottom. Remove the mufflers. Undo the UJoint. Lift the back end of the bike. Unbolt the transmission.

It's probably a half hour's work, but being the first time with Guzzis and this one, it'll probably be more like two or three. Sound reasonable? Hope the front bolt isn't frozen.

I've never used an alignment tool on the airhead clutches when I've replaced them. Is it critical with this one? Are longer fasteners needed to relieve the pressure plate tension?

Any fasteners I dare not re-use? U-Joint bolts? Pressure plate bolts? 

Matt, Dave - I know, I wanted to go to the breakfast and pop it on you there. Sorry. But I missed that. And I've been meaning to make it to Matt's since he got back, but have been busy with work. Would it be possible to join up with you two somewhere on Friday? Saturday I've got stuff going, and will be gone the week after that. So it's either Tomorrow (Wednesday or Friday). Hope I can make it up to you guys.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I've never used an alignment tool on the airhead clutches when I've replaced them. Is it critical with this one? Are longer fasteners needed to relieve the pressure plate tension?

Any fasteners I dare not re-use? U-Joint bolts? Pressure plate bolts? 

IMO, it is critical to use an alignment tool, otherwise the hub may not slide into the plate splines, plus it makes assembly a whole lot easier and eliminates the possibility of damaging anything. An alignment tool can be something as simple as an old hub with spacer in the center, a bolt and washer. That's what I use.



There are no u-joint bolts, unlike an Airhead. I don't reuse "ring gear/clutch cover" bolts, nor flywheel bolts (if you have that off).

[John A]

seal the rear cam cover with your favorite two part epoxy or something like that. just clean it well and seal it, but you do have to remove the flywheel. new bolts should be used.

[Matteo]

Thanks for confirming what I suspected. I see some SD discs in my future.

I guess my next question is what to watch out for doing this job. I've got to either pull the rear frame bolts and tilt the engine down, or remove both and drop everything out the bottom. Remove the mufflers. Undo the UJoint. Lift the back end of the bike. Unbolt the transmission.

It's probably a half hour's work, but being the first time with Guzzis and this one, it'll probably be more like two or three. Sound reasonable? Hope the front bolt isn't frozen.

I've never used an alignment tool on the airhead clutches when I've replaced them. Is it critical with this one? Are longer fasteners needed to relieve the pressure plate tension?

Any fasteners I dare not re-use? U-Joint bolts? Pressure plate bolts? 

Matt, Dave - I know, I wanted to go to the breakfast and pop it on you there. Sorry. But I missed that. And I've been meaning to make it to Matt's since he got back, but have been busy with work. Would it be possible to join up with you two somewhere on Friday? Saturday I've got stuff going, and will be gone the week after that. So it's either Tomorrow (Wednesday or Friday). Hope I can make it up to you guys.

Today or Friday works, I have an alignment tool if you need it.

[wirespokes]

I don't plan on removing the flywheel (unless I have to), but that's interesting data about the cam cover. I've never sealed a cover with epoxy before, so that sounds a bit extreme. What's the story there???

I guess with two clutch plates it's a bit trickier and more important to get them aligned. Makes sense to me.

Thanks for the offer Matt, I accept! Now I need to make the time (and space) to tear into it and see what I've got.

I've gotten an offer to buy two new SD discs, almost new unmarked flywheel, intermediate plate and good 4mm hub for $250. Not sure if I'll need a flywheel, but with the way this thing has been acting up, I'm afraid there's going to be some serious wear. I'm easy on clutches, but this one has fought me for 5K now and isn't letting up. It would be nice to have the parts here and ready to go, but on the one hand if I have only discs and need a flywheel, I'll be waiting. But if I jump on the complete clutch package and only need the discs, I'll have spent a bunch more than necessary when the funds aren't exactly available. Problems problems life's a bitch and then...

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I don't plan on removing the flywheel (unless I have to), but that's interesting data about the cam cover. I've never sealed a cover with epoxy before, so that sounds a bit extreme. What's the story there???

I've gotten an offer to buy two new SD discs, almost new unmarked flywheel, intermediate plate and good 4mm hub for $250. Not sure if I'll need a flywheel, but with the way this thing has been acting up, I'm afraid there's going to be some serious wear. I'm easy on clutches, but this one has fought me for 5K now and isn't letting up. It would be nice to have the parts here and ready to go, but on the one hand if I have only discs and need a flywheel, I'll be waiting. But if I jump on the complete clutch package and only need the discs, I'll have spent a bunch more than necessary when the funds aren't exactly available. Problems problems life's a bitch and then...

There have been instances where the cam plug in the bellhousing area has been found to leak. I JB Weld every job that I'm that deep into. In fact, I go even farther - replace the rear main seal, rear main bearing flange gasket, breather pipe gasket, seal the lower two bolts of the main bearing flange and the banjo bolt of the oil return line.

A few things to consider about the flywheel: is the replacement one the same weight as your original? Are the timing marks in the correct place? It's quite rare to need a replacement flywheel IMO.

[wirespokes]

Thanks, Charlie! That's good news about the flywheel. I was told that there's a possibility the teeth are notchy, in which case it would need to be replaced. Nice to know that's a rare occurrence.

Are you suggesting I pull the flywheel and seal all that up?

Not sure about the weight of the flywheel offered, but it only has the TDC marks, I believe.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Thanks, Charlie! That's good news about the flywheel. I was told that there's a possibility the teeth are notchy, in which case it would need to be replaced. Nice to know that's a rare occurrence.

Are you suggesting I pull the flywheel and seal all that up?

Not sure about the weight of the flywheel offered, but it only has the TDC marks, I believe.

There is always the possibility of notched teeth in the flywheel, but in my experience it's not nearly as common as a notched hub. I've only replaced 2 flywheels on the 20? or so clutch jobs I've done.

I only want to go in there once and be done with it, so I do everything. If there's no sign of leakage, then you may be good to go.