Monza + Shop Rag = d$hmk&8a?

[Hahnda]

At least I think it used to be a shop rag.

Owner was having issues with his Monza. The main problem was that it was stalling when the clutch was pulled in. Earlier in the summer, or even possibly the summer before, he had the bike in to a local shop in the Mpls/St.Paul area that replaced the cylinders and did a little work on it.

First thing I did was pull the starter and checked the front to rear freeplay of the crank. It was quite a bit. Got into it deeper today, dropped the oil and didn't see anything suspect there. Pulled the filter and knew there was going to be problems.....



Pulled the frame off the engine/trans.



Pulled the engine off and started disassembling it. Found bits all over inside.









It was quite bad in the pan.





Tomorrow I will split the cases and see what else I find.

[pyoungbl]

I feel sick.  To think that a 'shop' worked on the bike and left a shop rag inside....I'm ill.

Peter Y.

Of course, surgeons have done worse.

[fotoguzzi]

holy crap! where do you think the rag was left? in the sump or timing chest?

your too nice to not name the shop.. one name comes to my mind.. can you confirm?

[Hahnda]

I think that when they changed out the cylinders they must have dropped a rag down inside. It was chewed up into a pulp and found its way throughout the engine. Little bits were even up in the valves springs and rockers.

The shop that did the previous work was not a Guzzi dealer or a shop that works on Guzzi's a lot. At least I don't think they work on many of them, never actually been there.

Luckily there doesn't appear to be any permanent damage to any of the major components that I can see so far. No bits of metal or seized up bearings. I can see the bearing shim in the rear and its still there. I can measure just under 1.5mm of play in the crank front to rear. Spec calls for .35-.40mm. I am assuming the half collar shim may have worn rapidly due to lack of oil. The engine actually started up and ran fine, but when you pulled in the clutch the engine started to lug and would stall. Will have to check out the other bearings as well when I get there.

[John A]

Some shop rat did that to my BO105CB-4 MBB helicopter when it was almost finished after a major refit. Seized the left engine very quickly when it sucked up a rag that had been left in the engine compartment . Someone would have to be doped up to do it to a small engine like that. What a tough machine!

[Chuck in Indiana]

No bigger than a small block is.. you'd think a guy would have to *stuff* that shop towel in. Made a nice pre filter for the oil screen..

[mcdammitt]

Man,
 That is f$$ked up................. ...

[twowings]

He needs to visit that shop with the pictures, your bill, and his lawyer...what a testament to Guzzi that the damn thing ran at all...

[Hahnda]

I think the bike went at least 500 miles with it in there.  I do know the last 200 miles it was not happy. I guess its hard to ride a bike when it stalls every time you pull in the clutch.

[rodekyll]

That's how we came by my kid's first bike -- a BMW R75/7.  What was once a handiwipe was left in the sump.  Most of it didn't make it by the oil pickup -- but it tried its best.

[Aaron D.]

At least the oil was clean..

I don't think that  is good for ANY engine, so not being a Guzzi mechanic doesn't really seem significant.

[danomar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRaoHi_xcWk

[Hahnda]

Correct, the previous mechanic not being a Guzzi mechanic isn't really significant. It was more or less to just let anyone know that was curious if it was one of the Guzzi mechanics in the Twin Cites area.

Split the cases today. Not to much carnage actually. The thrust washer/spacer on the clutch side was toast. The one on the crank side was in good condition. The rear crank bearing shells were degraded a bit but not horrible, those will get replaced. The front main bearing shells were just fine. The big end rod bearing shells were just ok and could probably be put back into service but I will be replacing those as well. Crank measured out to within spec and there was no scoring or grooving. Checked out the sludge trap but not much in there.

Now its pretty much just waiting for parts. 

[80CX100]

     That's just brutal,,, but unfortunately, typical of the lack of care and attention to detail that is prevalent in a lot of trades,,, not just bike mechanics. I've been doing a lot of my own wrenching for years,,, it may take me a lot longer to get the jobs done. I have to become acquainted with whatever machine I'm working on,,, research the task at hand,, learning as I go,,, it may take a while and frankly sometimes can be a pita,,, but at the end of it,,, I know it's done and it's done well.

A couple of years ago, I had to buy a good set of tire irons to change tires/tubes on all of my small machinery,,, haven't tackled the fine rims on my MG's yet,,, but I will. I had to make this change to doing tire repair myself,,, not because I wanted to,,,, tackling the stiff sidewall tires on my Argo under a hot July sun, is not my idea of a good time,,, but every second time,,, I made the drive into various repair shops to have my tires repaired,,, 2 days later they were flat again,,, due to simple incompetence.

I've posted recently, about my ongoing search for a RAV4,,, I reecently went to look at one that sounded nice,,, the owner described the good state of repair, and that he had within the last 2 mths, spent $750 on a tune up and other work,,, he popped the hood so I could check out the engine bay,,, laying in plain view on top of the air filter assembly, was a great big 2 lb ballpeen hammer(sign of a good mechanic,lol),,, I told the owner how lucky he was that it hadn't bounced down into his pulley belt assembly, it would have caused a lot of carnage. The owner then described how he paid to have a new air filter put in as part of his tune up,,,so I took a good look at the assembly to see how well the mechanic had sealed it,,, the whole air filter assembly was bouncing loose on top of the intake plenum,,, not only was the bolt missing,, but the whole bracket assembly was missing. The new air filter was a waste of time and money,,, all the air from the very dirty engine bay was getting sucked right into the intake plenum under the filter assembly. I felt sad for the owner of the RAV4,,, horrible work, for $750.

I once got stuck, 8 hrs drive into the northern Canadian bush,,, after a mechanic had accidently? left off the ground wire for part of the starter assembly in my 6.2l Jimmy, it was just bs luck, that while I while flailing away with tools and a can of ether on top of the engine,,, that I moved a wire just enough to make contact and get out of the bush, and back to civilization.

I could go on forever,,, far too many people just don't give a damn,,, nice to know who the hell they are,,, BEFORE you trust them with your machinery and cash.

Good mechanics,,, or any tradespeople ,,, I've been blessed to  know a few,,, are worth their weight in gold,,, and they have to be nurtured and taken care of,,,jmho

Kelly

[fotoguzzi]

   
I've posted recently, about my ongoing search for a RAV4,,

I wouldn't buy one myself.. on my second RAV (2010) company car (not my choice, cheapest thing CBS can find) it's a 2x4 so worthless in winter.. it has traction control that kills the engine when it slips leaving you with no go trying to cross a busy street if it slippery.
the wheel rims have a void where snow packs in, then you go in garage, it melts only to freeze in the channel when your back outside, once frozen the wheels are way out of balance so it feels like your driving over railroad ties.
having said that, we run them up to and over 200k and never replace timing belts etc.. they last longer than the old Chrysler mini vans we used to have.. 

[John A]

I wouldn't buy one myself.. on my second RAV (2010) company car (not my choice, cheapest thing CBS can find) it's a 2x4 so worthless in winter.. it has traction control that kills the engine when it slips leaving you with no go trying to cross a busy street if it slippery.
the wheel rims have a void where snow packs in, then you go in garage, it melts only to freeze in the channel when your back outside, once frozen the wheels are way out of balance so it feels like your driving over railroad ties.
having said that, we run them up to and over 200k and never replace timing belts etc.. they last longer than the old Chrysler mini vans we used to have.. 

The last good year for a RAV4 was 2005. We have one and it is a good machine.

[Sasquatch Jim]

 Now that is real YOUGLY.

[sdcr]

  This thread reminds me of how fortunate that we, in the mid atlantic area, have the expertise of a true Moto Guzzi craftsman. When I needed the top end done on my 1983 Le Mans, I trailered it about 200 miles to his shop in Gapland MD. usually, the travel cost is $100-200 to do this.

  It's not that I don't have MC shops in my immediate area, but none that I would trust with being knowledgeable, thorough and reputable, as Charlie Mullendore, of Antetiem Classic Cycle. Now, two years and 6 thousand miles on, the Le Mans is running like a Swiss watch. Thanks Charlie.

[sign216]

I've got a theory:  the shop put the rag in there on purpose, but forgot about it.  The problem shop replaced the cylinders, right?
I bet they put the rag under the piston when it was still open to prevent debris from entering, but overnight/overweekend they forgot about it and put on the new cylinder without taking out the rag.

Come on, you know I'm right.

[rodekyll]

I've got a theory:  the shop put the rag in there on purpose, but forgot about it.  The problem shop replaced the cylinders, right?
I bet they put the rag under the piston when it was still open to prevent debris from entering, but overnight/overweekend they forgot about it and put on the new cylinder without taking out the rag.

Come on, you know I'm right.

I'll second that.

Or the rag was buffering the piston as they slid the jug on, got caught in the spigot, and pushe d into the engine.  They studied on it for a moment and said "screw it -- the filter will catch it.  Now hand me back my beer.  It's miller time!". 

[Hahnda]

Just when I thought that things couldn't get any worse for this little engine..........

Had the parts to get started with the reassembly. Cases and other parts had been all cleaned up and free of any bits of that shop rag. All was going well until I tried to fit the crankshaft. I fit the crank into the top case and it wasn't rotating all that well. Took out the new bearing shell, measured it and found it in spec. Put both bearings back in the case and put the cases together. Measured the diameter of the installed bearings shells. Ok vertical but taking a measurement almost horizontal showed it was tight. Took the bearing shells out and mated the cases again. Same thing, ok vertical but tight horizontal. So I took a REALLY close look at things and found this. 



I see a set of V50 cases on eBay but also wondering if anybody here might have a set they would want to part with.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Kevin - emailed you with a lead.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ya know, a Lario engine would make that little Monza speak up.  I have one, needs overhauled, and would sell it to the right guy.

[Hahnda]

Ya know, a Lario engine would make that little Monza speak up.  I have one, needs overhauled, and would sell it to the right guy.

I agree, it would be a good upgrade. I don't think something like that is in his budget though.

[Hahnda]

Well who would guessed, the cases from a V50 II are not compatible with parts for a V50 Monza. Looks like I am on the hunt again.   

To start they have a different crankshaft and bearings. Timing cover from Monza does not fit, probably more things that I could find.

I didn't research it that much as I thought it was a no-brainer.

Will update with pictures later, maybe......

[Hahnda]

Found what I needed and confirmed it this time.

[oldbike54]

 Way to hang tough dude 

 Dusty

[Hahnda]

Things are getting back together quite nicely now. I was able to find a set of Monza cases and everything went pretty smooth after that.

[Sasquatch Jim]

 That's even worse than when the surgeon leaves a shop rag inside when he closes up.
 At least the surgeons rag doesn't find its' way into all your joints and other organs.
 If he unzips you he can just remove the rag with nothing worse than a malpractice suit.
 And he will have insurance to cover that.