Other little tip for CARC bike owners.

[pete roper]

One incident? Meh! Bad Luck. Two? Hmm, Unusual but these things sometimes happen. Third time you begin to see it as a potential problem.

This one concerns the gasket that goes between the sump spacer and the block on all big block CARC bikes bar the Bellagio. I now know of at least five cases where this gasket has *Escaped* from around the pick up gallery meaning that the pump starts *Sucking* air. Needless to say this is a very bad thing as low or no oil delivery or pressure is a recipe for the dreaded 'Dogga-Dogga' noise that you REALY don't want to hear, ever!

See pic below for the problem.



Now it isn't a universal or even a common problem but five cases I know of means that it is something to keep your eye out for.

Symptoms will be the 'Red Triangle of Death' and 'Service warning on the dash and possibly, after that, the dreaded 'Oil Can' symbol. Checking the OBD will also probably show a DB-07 and 08 error.

Checking it is a bit of a pain as it requires removal of both sump and spacer but its not any worse than a V11 and not a lot harder than on an old Tonti.

I've seen this on both low-cam and hi-cam engines so nobody is immune. No need to worry UNESS you think you may have a pressure/delivery problem but if you do get suspicious? this is one of the first places to look.

Pete

[Arizona Wayne]

Is there a certain part of the sump it happens with regularity?

[pete roper]

Is there a certain part of the sump it happens with regularity?

Its that same part of the gasket every time. I think its the pick up gallery, but I could be wrong as I don't have a spacer with me now to work it out. If it is it would indicate there simply isn't enough clamping area in the casting since they made the gallery bigger and the gasket just gets squeezed out. If I'm mistaken and its the delivery gallery then its getting blown out by pressure and insufficient clamping force.

End of the day, as I said, its not a 'Hair Teary, OMG The Sky is Falling' thing. Just something to be aware of if you suddenly get oil pressure weirdness and it isn't the poxy sender switch!

Pete

[ITSec]

Pete, when you say the 'sump spacer' what are you referring to? Looking at my Norge I see a sump and a block, with no spacer - except perhaps the following.

Looking at the parts diagram, I see this:



Are you describing the flange (#25) as a 'spacer', and is the gasket in question the one labeled #24?

If so, for everyone's convenience, the part number for this gasket is GU01003651.

[Moz]

And not on the Bellagio?!?   

[Huzo]

I'm not going to but... is there enough meat in the casting to bore and tap for a securing bolt up from underneath to "clamp" the faces together locally? Naturally a spot face for the bolthead or all too damn much ?

[guzzi ride]

Thanks for the heads up on this  I'll keep an eye out.

[pete roper]

And not on the Bellagio?!?   

Nope, the Bellagio still uses the *Old* sump which was fine but impractical for a twin pump oil delivery system. Bellagio is golden!

Pete

[lucian]

Best fix? A better gasket material maybe?  At least checking that both castings are dead flat by lapping on a true surface.
Thank's for the heads up Pete.

[lti_57]

Pete are you saying, this just happens. It gets blown out.
Or is it a case of people dropping the pan for whatever reason and not putting it back right ?
appreciate all the  advice and the pic's you post up when you do work

[Bill Owens]

Best fix? A better gasket material maybe?  At least checking that both castings are dead flat by lapping on a true surface.
Thank's for the heads up Pete.

Good question

[pete roper]

Pete are you saying, this just happens. It gets blown out.
Or is it a case of people dropping the pan for whatever reason and not putting it back right ?
appreciate all the  advice and the pic's you post up when you do work

It's not the sump gasket. It doesn't get disturbed when you have the sump off. Whether it gets blown out or simply squeezed out I don't know.

As for the gasket itself? Despite similarities in appearance there are in fact at least three different types of gasket that perform this same sealing function. The one used on the CARC bikes is thinner and would appear more rigid and frangible but it's pick up gallery hole is larger than that on earlier gaskets as the actual gallery is also larger. Could you use the earlier, thicker gasket used on late model Cali's/Bellagio? Possibly? I really don't know, but the still earlier type the gasket would occlude a significant part of the gallery. Whether the type of gasket material would be similarly critical I simply have no idea.

Pete

[pete roper]

Pete, when you say the 'sump spacer' what are you referring to? Looking at my Norge I see a sump and a block, with no spacer - except perhaps the following.

Looking at the parts diagram, I see this:



Are you describing the flange (#25) as a 'spacer', and is the gasket in question the one labeled #24?

If so, for everyone's convenience, the part number for this gasket is GU01003651.

Sorry, overlooked this. Yes, it's what they call the flange, I call it a spacer because that's what a similar part was called on Tonti's way back in the mists of time! The gasket is the one you described.

Looking closer at the pic I think it's in fact the delivery side that has pushed out the gasket which would make more sense, either way you're going to loose pressure.

Pete

[TR4driver]

One more failed sump gasket here.
Glad for Pete's post so i knew where to look.

[John Warner]

Am I correct in thinking this issue would also cause a louder (than normal) 'Ticking' from the Engine, due to reduced Oil Pressure in the Cam Chain Tensioner Mechanisms?

Also Pete, you say you'd need to remove the Flange/Spacer to check, but would you not be able to see the displaced Gasket material from below, once the Sump's removed?
I'd also expect to find any broken-off bits of Gasket in the Sump, or in the drained Oil.

Sounds like a good excuse to go and strip mine down, not that I'm bored or anything . . . 

[ken farr]

Pete:



                           


kjf

[bigbikerrick]

Hey Pete, thanks for the heads up man! I have a 17 Griso, so this is important to me. Would a slightly thicker gasket help? Is one available for these bikes? I know on the older stuff, I am not a big fan of the thinner black, or dark grey gaskets. I have much more faith in the thicker green "premium "gaskets.
Rick.

[John Warner]

OK, so I was a little bored!

Dropped my Sump, and the Spacer.
Gasket was absolutely fine, but I think I may have found the reason some have failed.
Notice the fairly small areas where the Gasket is clamped between the Spacer and the Crankcase . . .




The reason is that the Bores in the Crankcase have fairly large chamfers, leading to a reduction in the area left around them . . .




Before I saw this, I was planning to machine a counterbore at each of the three openings in the Spacer, so I could fit an O-Ring at each location, and leave that part of the Gasket out entirely.

Not sure that's an option now . . .

[John Warner]

Two more possible options;
1. Make a slightly thicker Gasket, and leave a lot more material around that area.

2. Make a separate piece for that area out of slightly thicker Gasket material than the rest (leaving that part off the rest of the Gasket), say 1mm versus 0.8mm, so the clamping force would be higher.

[lazlokovacs]

this is concerning....

thanks for heads up

Is there a fix??

[John Warner]

I bought a couple of spares a while ago, just to have them on-hand if I ever needed one.
The replacements are thicker, and look to be much better quality than the original.
The original is fairly brittle.

Original is 0.42mm thick, almost plastic-like feel, snaps easily, not flexible at all, not a fibrous material.
Replacement is 0.8mm thick, fibrous and flexible.
Should be much tougher.

Similar to this.

[JBBenson]

MG Cycle has GU01003650 as a "direct replacement" for GU01003651. GU01003650 is identical to the V11 Sport/Lemans sump spacer gasket.

GU01003651 is backordered at AF1 Racing.

But to Pete's point, maybe the oil gallery holes are slightly smaller on GU01003650. Hard to know until everything's apart, at which point I like to already have a replacement on hand.

[skippy]

Thank you for the notice Pete. I will definitely order up some gaskets and have a look.

Your contributions to this board are tremendous.

Thanks again.

Skippy

[bigbikerrick]

I have never dropped the sump on my Griso,as it has less than 2000 miles, but knowing this ,I am going to pro actively open things up,and replace the oem gasket with one of the thicker green ones.Otherwise I wont sleep well at night!
  After the bottom sump is dropped,are there other fasteners that hold the spacer on, or will it then just drop down? Any other details I should be careful of when replacing this gasket?
Thanks again, Pete.
Rick

[John Warner]

There are more Bolts to remove.
Two go through between the three Gallery Bores where the Gasket breaks up.
Two go through either side of the single Gallery Bore at the other end of the Spacer.
There are a couple more that hold the two Strainers on, but you may be able to leave those in place, the Cooler Circuit Strainer/Pick-up Pipe just pulls out from it's Bore at the top.




I removed my Filter, but you could leave it in place until the Spacer is off, would be slightly less messy.

That should answer your question as well Huzo, I missed it before, sorry.

I'm not going to but... is there enough meat in the casting to bore and tap for a securing bolt up from underneath to "clamp" the faces together locally? Naturally a spot face for the bolthead or all too damn much ?

[lazlokovacs]

so.. is this the correct part number for the thicker green gasket??? GU01003650

[bigbikerrick]

Thank you, Doc. The info you provided as well as the pics,is exactly what I was looking for. I am going to tackle that little project as soon as my new thicker green gaskets come in. If my memory serves me corretly, Pete mentioned in the past about an O ring in the  pickup strainer assembly that could become displaced and get "sucked into" the circuit,causing problems downstream. I plan to assess that situation as well.
  Its stuff like this that make this forum so great,and people like Pete,Charlie,and many others, that keep us on track with our Guzzis!     
You guys Rock Bigtime!!
Rick

[bigbikerrick]

Oh I forgot to pose the question to the group...Why in God's green earth do you think Guzzi decided to chamfer the edges of those holes resulting in a very narrow sealing surface, would it not have been much better to leave them flat?
Thanks
Rick.

[John Warner]

They probably did it to remove any casting imperfections, but yes I agree, they didn't need to go so deep with them.

. . . Pete mentioned in the past about an O ring in the  pickup strainer assembly that could become displaced and get "sucked into" the circuit, causing problems downstream . . .

There are two green O-Rings in the Bore that the Cooling Circuit Pipe goes into, I could see how they could be dislodged when refitting the Pipe.




There's a chamfer on the end of the Pipe, but it could be improved, as there's still a slight edge to it.

[beetle]

Everybody just STOP!


Here be Tygers!


From Pete himself:

there is no need for radical solutions to the crap gasket blowing out. Using the thicker type fixes the issue and point out to this 'Big biker rick' bloke that his Griso, being a '17 has the Cali 1400 sump and if he removes it, completely unnecessarily as it doesn't use the failure prone gasket, he will be making a huge rod for his own back and will of bought the wrong sump gasket anyway.