Author Topic: Repowering the 3VL TWIN - Chapter 3: 36 Hours Later (Read 12916 times)

rodekyll · « **Reply #60 on:** February 09, 2017, 09:46:11 AM »

Quote from: RANDM on February 09, 2017, 06:57:04 AM

Great effort with an excellent result.
Well done RK.

Interested in how it differs in sound seeing your using the
same Cam and I assume Exhaust, guessing the Tappets
might be a little louder?

Maurie.

I installed a Convert cam. Same profile, or nearly so. Yes, definitely more tappet noise compared to the hydro.

rodekyll · « **Reply #61 on:** February 09, 2017, 10:15:46 PM »

I synched the TBs and put about 30 miles on it. All seems as good or better than expected. No fluid leaks, no bad noises or vibration, and engine temperature and pressure is very good. fueling isn't abyssmal using the 15M and stock hydro map. I can live with it until I get the guzzidiag problem sorted. I got it up to 70 (= about 5krpm) on the back roads and it feels like "more" everywhere. I can putter up a hill at 25 and get instant response to the throttle. I'm sure a good trim and mapping will make it even better.

The ATF is running hotter though by a lot + 50*f. I made changes that reduced airflow across the cooler, and I think the 1200 is pushing the t/c harder. I think I need to add ATF volume to compensate. I'm thinking about going to the paint shop and buying a new tin gallon can, brazing the lid shut, and adding a couple of bungs for inlet/outlet. I can easily plumb it in between the t/c output port and the return side of the radiator.

Zoom Zoom · « **Reply #62 on:** February 10, 2017, 05:16:58 AM »

What about a larger cooler? Maybe not practical, IDK. Or a secondary cooler someplace.

John Henry

John A · « **Reply #63 on:** February 10, 2017, 09:00:21 AM »

Extra capacity is not a good engineering practice to combat cooling issues, it will heat up eventually.And it might be easier to add a cooler like ZZ suggests

Charles in Lake Charles · « **Reply #64 on:** February 10, 2017, 09:52:18 AM »

I replaced my original with a Jagg http://www.jagg.com/ which keeps the fluid much cooler.

rodekyll · « **Reply #65 on:** February 10, 2017, 10:25:17 AM »

Right now there is a radiator that holds a little more than a liter. It is the only tank/cooler in the system. This is significantly less than the oem capacity. Some of that space needs to stay empty for the return surge that happens when the engine shuts down, so I can't use all of it. I tried it this way to see what would happen, and what happens is that the fluid cools well when underway, but heats up rapidly in stop-and-go traffic. So I'm not proposing adding to the proper amount as much as I want to bring it up to at least oem specs. A gallon is an easy size container to find and work with, so for simplicity (if it fits) and cost, it's a painless mod.

If you look at the pics, you see the Breva cooler is already where the oem atf cooler would be. I don't know where I could add yet another.

ITSec · « **Reply #66 on:** February 10, 2017, 01:08:42 PM »

Quote from: rodekyll on February 10, 2017, 10:25:17 AM

Right now there is a radiator that holds a little more than a liter. It is the only tank/cooler in the system. This is significantly less than the oem capacity. Some of that space needs to stay empty for the return surge that happens when the engine shuts down, so I can't use all of it. I tried it this way to see what would happen, and what happens is that the fluid cools well when underway, but heats up rapidly in stop-and-go traffic. So I'm not proposing adding to the proper amount as much as I want to bring it up to at least oem specs. A gallon is an easy size container to find and work with, so for simplicity (if it fits) and cost, it's a painless mod.

If you look at the pics, you see the Breva cooler is already where the oem atf cooler would be. I don't know where I could add yet another.

That seems to me to say that a fan on the ATF cooler is the right answer, especially if it's located away from its original location. Colls OK when moving, not when standing still? Then keep it (or at least the air) moving! There are any number of small fans for this purpose at the motorcycle supply houses, they're popular with Harley owners in hot climates for their oil coolers.

John A · « **Reply #67 on:** February 10, 2017, 02:51:38 PM »

Quote from: rodekyll on February 10, 2017, 10:25:17 AM

Right now there is a radiator that holds a little more than a liter. It is the only tank/cooler in the system. This is significantly less than the oem capacity. Some of that space needs to stay empty for the return surge that happens when the engine shuts down, so I can't use all of it. I tried it this way to see what would happen, and what happens is that the fluid cools well when underway, but heats up rapidly in stop-and-go traffic. So I'm not proposing adding to the proper amount as much as I want to bring it up to at least oem specs. A gallon is an easy size container to find and work with, so for simplicity (if it fits) and cost, it's a painless mod.

If you look at the pics, you see the Breva cooler is already where the oem atf cooler would be. I don't know where I could add yet another.

Yep in that case id give 'er more capacity and a fan

rodekyll · « **Reply #68 on:** February 10, 2017, 10:08:38 PM »

I have an 8", thermostatically-controlled radiator fan for the ATF cooler. Before the firewood incident it lived behind the radiator. When it got torn up I moved it to in front, behind a grille, with a bit of an air gap. It being in front is the reduced airflow compromise I had to make. So far the fan has not come on. I'd rather it didn't unless I was testing it. I'll try for a pic later.

Arizona Wayne · « **Reply #69 on:** February 10, 2017, 10:22:47 PM »

FWIW, on my Convert. sidecar rig I had 2 ATF coolers in series, the extra 1 on the right front crashbar and a temp gauge. When the temp got time to cool the ATF, I would pull over for a few minutes and it would happen. This was when I was running with the wife in the car in tight uphill road conditions in norCal with both uphill & weak airflow over the ATF coolers. It didn't happen often but I never had any other issues, but I also didn't get stuck in stop & go conditions for long much either.

rodekyll · « **Reply #70 on:** February 11, 2017, 10:46:11 PM »

Into every ride some stop-n-go must come -- at some point. I made it from Seattle to Baton Rouge via Portland, Ogden, and Minneapolis before I got some, and then it was clear that I'd missed a bit on my design for that whole atf cooling thing. These things happen when you color outside the lines.

But it's just another detail.

I got the loose exh valve relashed and reset the upper "barn door" flap on the cooler scoop. The engine sounds pretty good, but I miss the quiet of the hydro. Literally all I heard with the hydro was exhaust note, timing gears, and the screams of pedestrians. I found a flap point that seems to do better for the air scoop. Rolling temp is down by 30f from yesterday, and it was 20f hotter today.

I also got the TB linkage tweaked to where the cylinders pull very evenly. It's a good feel in the handlebar and feet when they're balanced. My method is to tweak the balance screw just enough to move it in one direction, ride, and evaluate vibration. If the tweak was an improvement I do it again until I've passed the sweet spot, and then walk it back to perfect.

I changed out the battery in the VAPOR speedo, checked tires, and topped off the fuel. Tomorrow I'm going to put a couple hundred on it and see how we're doing.

I cruised town looking for a shiny new gallon tin can to use as an atf tank. Something like you'd buy acetone or thinner in. I thought Shirley, the paint store, hardware store or Lowes would have a shelf full. Nobody sells them unless there is already acetone or thinner in them. I never heard of that. But I'm not real keen on drilling and brazing on a used paint thinner can, either. I might have to buy a nascar-type overflow tank for actual money!

RANDM · « **Reply #71 on:** February 12, 2017, 08:00:31 AM »

Don't know about over there RK, but here I'd check a
Lawn Mower Repair / Chainsaw type place for a metal
Fuel can?

Maurie

rodekyll · « **Reply #72 on:** February 12, 2017, 10:29:06 AM »

Quote from: RANDM on February 12, 2017, 08:00:31 AM

Don't know about over there RK, but here I'd check a
Lawn Mower Repair / Chainsaw type place for a metal
Fuel can?

Maurie

That would work if the shape fit the space and the tank cap was sealed rather than vented. So far my gas tank options have failed on one or the other.

Space needs to be < 4" x 12" base and 8" tall. It will be at the bottom of everything, so it will be completely filled from the bottom with the outlet on the top. The idea is that the tank is filled by fluid returning to the radiator. Once full and purged, the fluid continues out the top to the top tank of the radiator to repeat the loop. Any venting or overflow will be a leak.

RANDM · « **Reply #73 on:** February 12, 2017, 04:03:01 PM »

Your right - I get that. Don't suppose the Caps would be
A generic thread / size and interchangeable? That would
be too easy wouldn't ut.

Maurie.

RANDM · « **Reply #74 on:** February 13, 2017, 07:04:25 AM »

Another thought - use the lid for both connections with
two tubes, a deep pickup and shallow inlet brazed to the
lid?

Maurie.

rodekyll · « **Reply #75 on:** February 13, 2017, 09:53:47 AM »

Quote from: RANDM on February 13, 2017, 07:04:25 AM

Another thought - use the lid for both connections with
two tubes, a deep pickup and shallow inlet brazed to the
lid?

Maurie.

I'd worry about trapping air in the tank if I used tubes. With bungs nd fittings the orifices are flush to the can. One at the highest point would allow for complete purging.

Keep the ideas coming. Makes me think.

John A · « **Reply #76 on:** February 13, 2017, 10:47:27 AM »

Do you still have the backbone on the frame that had the breather? Maybe you could use that for a tank. Might not have enough capacity and might have too much rust inside. What you need is a tin smith that can whip out a tank. Maybe wander around an automobile junkyard, might find a tank with fittings. I'm thinking an accumulator tank for something.

dguzzi · « **Reply #77 on:** February 13, 2017, 11:11:51 AM »

Consider an old fire extinguisher? I made a vacuum trap with one.. Mine is aluminum, not sure if it would work for your purpose.

John A · « **Reply #78 on:** February 13, 2017, 11:26:53 AM »

Quote from: dguzzi on February 13, 2017, 11:11:51 AM

Consider an old fire extinguisher? I made a vacuum trap with one.. Mine is aluminum, not sure if it would work for your purpose.

Good idea

Muzz · « **Reply #79 on:** February 13, 2017, 12:37:29 PM »

I don't suppose there is any way that you could add fins and a fan to this auxiliary tank and make it an additional ATF cooler as well?

rodekyll · « **Reply #80 on:** February 13, 2017, 01:40:55 PM »

I like the fire extinguisher idea. That could work. Ken finds those all the time when he's scrapping.

The location for the tank is out of the airflow. I could duplicate the radiator on the other side of the bike, but the hose issue crossing the driveshaft area would drive me nuts and I'd lose a lot of storage with the scoop arrangement I'd need. So a simple tank will have to do.

Here is the current radiator configuration.

Barn door top panel raised for viewing inside:

Barn door closed at optimal angle for cooling:

The fuel switching valves stick out the front of the grille.

John A · « **Reply #81 on:** February 13, 2017, 02:25:39 PM »

I am thinking that on the fire extinguisher if you added a dip tube that went to the bottom you could do it all from the threaded top. a dip tube would make the fluid go the way you wanted and it would be a neater plumbing solution, inlet and outlet at the top

RANDM · « **Reply #82 on:** February 13, 2017, 02:41:49 PM »

John A · « **Reply #83 on:** February 13, 2017, 02:45:50 PM »

when you get back in this neck of the woods Ill take you over to Curt Blocks place. He does weird things to Moto Guzzis late at night. the first one to put Crossely marine engine in a loop frame. He put a big bore Honda 4 cylinder in a T frame, some of his creations and they look 'factory'

normzone · « **Reply #84 on:** February 13, 2017, 02:59:11 PM »

Quote from: John A on February 13, 2017, 02:25:39 PM

I am thinking that on the fire extinguisher if you added a dip tube that went to the bottom you could do it all from the threaded top. a dip tube would make the fluid go the way you wanted and it would be a neater plumbing solution, inlet and outlet at the top

" I like the fire extinguisher idea. That could work. Ken finds those all the time when he's scrapping. "

Sounds to me more like a Cornelius keg, one of those fire extinguisher sized kegs used for soda fountains.

I remember when a beer keg was a fashionable gas tank for custom builds - I think the California DMV frowns on them now.

rodekyll · « **Reply #85 on:** February 14, 2017, 12:15:36 PM »

The 2-qt canister fits the space.

upload image png

The nozzle valve fitting appears to be garden hose size and thread. The nozzle was easier to remove than I made it. It has an o-ring seal, parallel (as opposed to tapered) threading, and unscrewed easily.

Looking through the stash for 1/4 NPT bungs now . . ..

Muzz · « **Reply #86 on:** February 14, 2017, 12:22:50 PM »

Quote from: rodekyll on February 14, 2017, 12:15:36 PM

The 2-qt canister fits the space.

upload image png

Looking through the stash for 1/4 NPT bungs now . . ..

Is the thread NPT of BSP? Only 1 TPI difference.

rodekyll · « **Reply #87 on:** February 14, 2017, 12:30:42 PM »

Quote from: Muzz on February 14, 2017, 12:22:50 PM

Is the thread NPT of BSP? Only 1 TPI difference.

I was able to screw a garden hose completely into it, and it's definitely not tapered.

Muzz · « **Reply #88 on:** February 15, 2017, 12:51:51 AM »

Our hose thread out here is a non tapered BSP thread. Had a quick look and according to Wikipedia yours over there may be different.

rodekyll · « **Reply #89 on:** February 15, 2017, 08:04:16 AM »

I don't plan to make a seal with the thread. I'll be brazing a bung into the hole. I'd like to find 12x1.5 bungs so I can use banjos instead of hose barbs.

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Author Topic: Repowering the 3VL TWIN - Chapter 3: 36 Hours Later (Read 12916 times)