Starter works normally for 1 second, then stops

[SmithSwede]

2013 V7 Stone.  So I tried to fix a slow oil leak by replacing the O-ring under the phase sensor.   Afterwards when I tried to start the engine, it won't start.   The starter motor engages, and spins the engine just like normal, but then stops cranking after about a second.  It cuts off just like I had released the starter button, even though I'm pressing it firmly.

No fault codes.  Battery is 2 months old, fully charged.  This is not a case of solenoid clicking, or a weak or slow rotation.  Starter engages and then cranks vigorously, just like normal, except the starter then just cuts off before the engine will start.

Bike ran great the day before.   The only thing I did to it was remove the leaking phase sensor and replace the O-ring.   And yes, I've tried replacing the old O-ring but that makes no difference.  It is definitely in neutral, kill switch off.  Makes no difference if I try to start it with side stand down or up.

I don't see how messing with phase sensor could cause this.  But since that's the last thing I did, I'm suspicious that there's a relationship here.

I'm out of town this week and can't look at bike, but would appreciate any insights or diagnostic tips. 

[Wayne Orwig]

Yep, the phase sensor might.
Did you use the correct size o-ring.
Did you peel ALL of the shims off, and the old o-ring?

The sensor gap is a bit picky. If you excessively changed the gap on the sensor, it may be firing the piston way off time.  It may be firing against the starter and locking up the starter.
The starter would suddenly STOP, if so.
And if so, do NOT continue trying to start it. Such dramatic pre-ignition can do significant engine damage.

If that is it. And I only suspect that because you say that is the only thing you touched.

You could pull the sensor back out a bit so it NEVER fires, to see if that is it.

[fotoguzzi]

wow, that's sounds pretty dire..

[SmithSwede]

Thanks Wayne. 

Yes, I think it's the right O-ring.   And I tried replacing the original one but that made no difference.  I removed and replaced all this in broad daylight while sober as a judge, so I'm pretty sure I'm not missing spacers or anything.

I don't think the engine is firing at all, and then maybe stopping the starter rotation by an ill-timed piston firing. Instead, it's more like there is some circuit that is shutting off the starter after about a second of fruitless cranking. 

Makes me wonder if maybe the ECU shuts off the cranking if it doesn't get a valid signal from the phase sensor.  So maybe the gap is wrong.  Or the sensor was leaking and failing beforehand, and then died when I messed with it. 

[Wayne Orwig]

Thanks Wayne. 

Yes, I think it's the right O-ring.   And I tried replacing the original one but that made no difference.  I removed and replaced all this in broad daylight while sober as a judge, so I'm pretty sure I'm not missing spacers or anything.

I don't think the engine is firing at all, and then maybe stopping the starter rotation by an ill-timed piston firing. Instead, it's more like there is some circuit that is shutting off the starter after about a second of fruitless cranking. 

Makes me wonder if maybe the ECU shuts off the cranking if it doesn't get a valid signal from the phase sensor.  So maybe the gap is wrong.  Or the sensor was leaking and failing beforehand, and then died when I messed with it. 

Not sure if that ECU will do that. If it does, you would think it would show an error code. If you can get to the connector, they are easy to ohm out. And of course you want to make sure the tip is clean with no metal bits on it.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Does the V7 starter latch in with a relay like the Griso of Norge

 http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif

As others are suggesting Ohm the sensor (37) at 20 to 29 on the control unit, it will be something less than 100 Ohms
The control unit controls the start relay so it may be missing the pulses it needs to hold the relay (6) closed.

[Tom H]

Just some thoughts. Again, I'm basing this on my '04 EV.

I did my sensor O ring without any issues. I bought the "correct???" O ring from a dealer. JMHO I don't think it's the O ring since you re-installed the old one and the problem persists. Did you GLOB a bunch of sealant to the shim/block surface?
DID you get any on the pointy end of the sensor?????? Could be a bit of sealant on the tip????

Are you sure the wire is clean and firmly attached? Could be a loose connection.

If I remember right, you did this to fix an oil leak. If nothing else was done...... it should be working like it was before you removed the sensor. When I did my sensor it was pretty straight forward per the instructions.

Did you do anything else? Moved some wires around, spark plugs, ect....?

If it was me, I would triple check that no glob of sealant is on the tip of the sensor. From what I read it's pretty sensitive to this. If all is fine, then tell us what you have checked again. Gotta be someone that has gone through this here!

Hope this helps,
Tom

[fotoguzzi]

did you unplug the sensor from the wiring harness? broken wire.. or forgot to plug it back in>?
Like Wayne says put an Ohm meter to it..

[sib]

The V7II (and I think the V7 as well) has a starter timer.  It doesn't latch, but it does limit the cranking time to a few seconds per button press.  If you want more cranking, you have to release the button and then press it again.

Here's another obscurity from the V7II owner's manual:  "If the motorcycle turns off accidentally the ECU will allow it to be restarted within the next 5 seconds.  Once this time has expired, the ECU will prevent restarting for another 2 seconds and only then will it be possible to start the motorcycle."

[sign216]

The V7II (and I think the V7 as well) has a starter timer.  It doesn't latch, but it does limit the cranking time to a few seconds per button press.  If you want more cranking, you have to release the button and then press it again.

Here's another obscurity from the V7II owner's manual:  "If the motorcycle turns off accidentally the ECU will allow it to be restarted within the next 5 seconds.  Once this time has expired, the ECU will prevent restarting for another 2 seconds and only then will it be possible to start the motorcycle."

Learning something new every day.  The starter disconnect has a benefit, but at a cost too.

Designers are forgetting that simplicity is a virtue.

[SmithSwede]

Thanks.  Yes, I can confirm that there's no sealant goop on the end of the sensor, and all connections are clean and tight.

I've ordered a new sensor, and several new O-rings, on the theory that something is wonky with the old sensor.   And that maybe the ECU shuts down the starter motor by releasing the relay if it doesn't get timely sensor inputs, which would explain my symptoms. 

[Tom H]

Remember to pull the shim/shims off the old sensor.

Tom

[Chuck in Indiana]

Thanks.  Yes, I can confirm that there's no sealant goop on the end of the sensor, and all connections are clean and tight.

I've ordered a new sensor, and several new O-rings, on the theory that something is wonky with the old sensor.   And that maybe the ECU shuts down the starter motor by releasing the relay if it doesn't get timely sensor inputs, which would explain my symptoms.

If your old sensor checks (from memory  ) 60 ohms, it's good. No need to spend money unnecessarily. (Guzzi content)

[Sasquatch Jim]

 The hose clamp on your oil filter may be loose.

[fotoguzzi]

The hose clamp on your oil filter may be loose.

Small blocks don't use a hose clamp.

[slopokes]

R u sure?

[Kev m]

The V7II (and I think the V7 as well) has a starter timer.  It doesn't latch, but it does limit the cranking time to a few seconds per button press.  If you want more cranking, you have to release the button and then press it again.

Here's another obscurity from the V7II owner's manual:  "If the motorcycle turns off accidentally the ECU will allow it to be restarted within the next 5 seconds.  Once this time has expired, the ECU will prevent restarting for another 2 seconds and only then will it be possible to start the motorcycle."

I don't think that limits cranking time, I think it is telling you the ECM will allow a restart immediately for 5 seconds after a stall without a 2 second initialization, but after 5 seconds the ECM resets and takes 2 seconds to reinitialize.

I'm not positive, but that's how I'm reading it. And I think once or twice over the years the Stone didn't start and cranked for an uncomfortably long time so I don't think there's a hard time limit.

I'm going with the theory of the lack of CPS signal.

[Kiwi_Roy]

If your old sensor checks (from memory  ) 60 ohms, it's good. No need to spend money unnecessarily. (Guzzi content)

Plus which by measuring your sensor you will be adding to the collective knowledge.
These type of sensors called a Variable Reluctance Sensor consist of a small magnet overwound with a coil, the teeth on the shaft encoder disrupt the magnetic field which causes the sensor to make small Voltage spikes in the coil, the ECU interprets this as a speed signal.
The wires are twisted and covered by a shield to avoid interference from adjacent wiring similar to most other sensitive apparatus,
It's hard to see what could go wrong unless the wire is broken, measure at the sensor or the control box

[voncrump]

Gidday all.

I can recall an experience I had after trying to hot start my V7!!. The starter only cranks for couple of seconds. and then you have to try it again. This happened after I had pulled in after 15 minutes on the track at a track day. I ended up by giving it about half turn on the throttle then it fired up. I would say that the engine will only crank over about 5-6 times. It normally starts in about 3 turns.
You could have one problem and end up chasing another non existent one.
Cheers, and good luck, VONCRUMP

[antmanbee]

For a different Guzzi, my 2000 Jackal, I had the timing sensor fail. On the Jackal it is located on the left side of the engine just above and in front of the cylinder. The spec for an ohm reading is 680-700. Mine read infinite. Symptoms were cranking and fuel pump working with key on but I had no spark and no fuel. This was because the ECU was not getting a signal to tell when to spark or open the injectors. replaced the sensor and it fired right up. New sensor ohmed out at 680.

[Kev m]

From the Service Manual - sensor should read 553-748 ohms resistance:

Electrical characteristics:
Winding resistance: 650 Ω ± 15%

Output alternating voltage, value range:
minimum: 0.5 V - maximum: 5 V

Starter Circuit Info:

STARTER COMMAND
Function

Commands engine starting through the injection
control unit.

Operation / Operating principle

The starter button, the brake switches, the No. 6
starter command relay and the injection control
unit between PIN 6 and 10 are involved.

Level in electrical circuit diagram: Start-up relay

Location:

Under the fuel tank.





Pin-out:

1. control unit relay output (blue/yellow cable)
2. ignition switch live control unit (green/red cable)
3. starter motor (violet cable)
4. /
5. ignition switch live control unit (green/red cable)

Gidday all.

I can recall an experience I had after trying to hot start my V7!!. The starter only cranks for couple of seconds. and then you have to try it again. This happened after I had pulled in after 15 minutes on the track at a track day. I ended up by giving it about half turn on the throttle then it fired up. I would say that the engine will only crank over about 5-6 times. It normally starts in about 3 turns.
You could have one problem and end up chasing another non existent one.
Cheers, and good luck, VONCRUMP

Are you saying that is true on a V7II?  I.E. that even with the starter button still held down there is some sort of starter protection circuit that won't allow continued cranking?

I've got the same year/model as the OP (2013 V7 Stone) and I've had one or two instances over the 4 years I've owned it when I've had a long cranking time. I can't say for sure it was more than 5-6 turns of the motor or more than 5 seconds (didn't think to count or time it). But it was definitely longer than usual and it triggered my internal reflex not to keep the starter engaged and overheat it. That said, I've definitely not hit an electronic cut off on the cranking time.

Maybe my internal trigger is too short (it's certainly possible), but I'm skeptical that it applies to the 13 V7 because I THINK I cranked longer than that..

[sib]

I don't think that limits cranking time, I think it is telling you the ECM will allow a restart immediately for 5 seconds after a stall without a 2 second initialization, but after 5 seconds the ECM resets and takes 2 seconds to reinitialize.

I'm not positive, but that's how I'm reading it. And I think once or twice over the years the Stone didn't start and cranked for an uncomfortably long time so I don't think there's a hard time limit.

I'm going with the theory of the lack of CPS signal.

Yes, that's a different "feature" than the limited cranking time feature, which at least makes sense by preventing someone from frying their starter.  The rationale for the 5 sec yes/2 sec no tango escapes me, but I copied it right out of the manual.

I, too, have an internal trigger that prevents me from leaning on the starter button for very long, but, one time, I overruled it on the V7II and the starter stopped cranking after a few seconds.  I  had to release and then re-press the button to get more cranking.  I've looked for documentation of this behavior and, so far, I haven't found it.

[Kev m]

Yes, that's a different "feature" than the limited cranking time feature, which at least makes sense by preventing someone from frying their starter.  The rationale for the 5 sec yes/2 sec no tango escapes me, but I copied it right out of the manual.

I, too, have an internal trigger that prevents me from leaning on the starter button for very long, but, one time, I overruled it on the V7II and the starter stopped cranking after a few seconds.  I  had to release and then re-press the button to get more cranking.  I've looked for documentation of this behavior and, so far, I haven't found it.

I've been editing my reply to add whatever info is in the manual.

I will admit it IS possible. I mean, the starter button sends a signal to the ECU and the ECU is what energizes the starter relay, so there could be any sort of logic in the ECU telling it to not crank under certain conditions like length of time or lack of CPS signal.

Still I'm thinking I've cranked it longer than the OP is describing...but that's a SWAG, so I can't be sure.

I still say test CPS first just because it's the last thing he did. All it would take is a poorly built CPS and an open circuit that resulted from a internal broken wire (maybe just from handling it) and I bet the ECU might just shut down cranking for lack of any ignition and fuel timing data.

[sib]

I've been editing my reply to add whatever info is in the manual.

I will admit it IS possible. I mean, the starter button sends a signal to the ECU and the ECU is what energizes the starter relay, so there could be any sort of logic in the ECU telling it to not crank under certain conditions like length of time or lack of CPS signal.

Still I'm thinking I've cranked it longer than the OP is describing...but that's a SWAG, so I can't be sure.

I still say test CPS first just because it's the last thing he did. All it would take is a poorly built CPS and an open circuit that resulted from a internal broken wire (maybe just from handling it) and I bet the ECU might just shut down cranking for lack of any ignition and fuel timing data.

I just stumbled on a piece of info that may, or may not, shed some light.  In October or November 2014 Guzzi released an ECU software update for the pre II dry alternator V7's, number 352BV738, that is titled "Improved start consent signal management, improved idle management".  I wonder whether this update added (or removed) the limited cranking time feature.

[Chuck in Indiana]

If your old sensor checks (from memory  ) 60 ohms, it's good. No need to spend money unnecessarily. (Guzzi content)

I said from memory..  600, not 60.

[Kev m]

I just stumbled on a piece of info that may, or may not, shed some light.  In October or November 2014 Guzzi released an ECU software update for the pre II dry alternator V7's, number 352BV738, that is titled "Improved start consent signal management, improved idle management".  I wonder whether this update added (or removed) the limited cranking time feature.

I cannot confirm or deny for sure, but I can say that I've had that map for a year or two now (it replaced the original map 3523V7149 that came on my 2013) and I am pretty sure I've had a incidence of long cranking on both maps.

I know it's an odd thing to think I remember, but I had the original map for the about 2 years I had the bike when I was still living in PA and I remember one particular time I thought I got bad gas and had a problem starting. Then I moved to NJ over 2 years ago now, got the map updated shortly afterward, and it was this past year or so that I had another instance of prolonged cranking.

[Howard R]

Back to basics might help here.  SmithSwede, put a voltmeter directly on the battery while you try to start.  It sounds sort of like your battery voltage might be dropping out, I think the newer computers have a low voltage detect function which will interrupt the starter if the cranking voltage drops below some threshold.  I know you have a fairly new battery, but "new" doesn't always equal "good," infant mortality is not common but it does happen, I have seen fairly new batteries go bad.  Depending on what your voltmeter shows you (below 10 volts while cranking = not good) take the battery back to where you got it (if you can) for a load test and possible warranty replacement.  Regarding the sensor, it seems to be the same sensor Guzzi has used since the dawn of the electronics era.  The nominal value (as mentined above) is 680 ohms but the exact value is not that critical.  If the ohm meter reads zero or infinite/open circuit that's bad.

Howard

[Tom H]

For the timing sensor. How do you know how many shims or what thickness it needs to be when replacing the sensor?

Are all sensors made the same and the original shims will work? Or do you have to set a new sensor up with new shims? How do you make the measurement?

Just gotta to know!!
Tom

[SmithSwede]

Thanks to everyone for suggestions, tips, and clues.    That's one reason why I love this forum.  Here some follow-up.

---I will ohm out the new, and the old, sensor.  And load test the battery.  Will report the results.

---Everyone keeps talking about the shims, but I don't have any shims.   I've looked very carefully at both the engine block and the sensor itself, and cleaned them both, but don't see any kind of shim(s) stuck anywhere.

I also looked at the parts fiche for a 2013 V7 Stone, and it doesn't show any shims to adjust the air gap.   It just shows the sensor itself, the O-ring, two mounting bolts and two washers.  The fiche shows the washers going on the outside of the sensor, between the external surface of the sensor and the bolt head.   

---I ride this bike just about every day, so I'm pretty sure the starter motor is cutting out much earlier than it normally does.   I'm confident that there have been many occasions where I've held the starter button down, and the starter kept cranking much longer than it does now (e.g. very hot engine).

Thus while there may be a circuit which puts a time limit on cranking (like 3 to 5 seconds), I don't think that particular circuit is the what is causing mine to cut out so quickly. 

[Kiwi_Roy]

Tom H,
        One way to measure the shims is to stick a blob of wax to the tip and bolt it back in for a second, the teeth will make an indent in the wax. I've tried to measure up with a calliper but it's too hard to get accurate that way. You can use feeler gauges but you have to remove the timing cover to do that. Make sure whatever you use won't do any harm if it falls in the works.
Looking at the Efiman document it calls for a gap between 0.6 and 1.2mm (23 to 47 thou)
Make a shim from high grade Aluminum sheet (beer can) if you need to.

Actually a single shim is probably less likely to leak, 20 gauge sheet perhaps
The only ones I have seen had a couple of shims.
Is there any sign of wear on the end?

BTW Efiman confirmed 680 Ohms, good advice from Howard R, sometimes we overthink stuff

If you haven't read this yet I advise you to download it and save it somewhere safe, each time I look for it seems to get harder to find. It's written for the P8 ECU but it applies to the later ones as well
http://www.dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf