1970 Ambassador

[surffly]

Well the bike did come with a solo seat!




I do need to find a "radio" rack to work with the solo seat.
And/Or a "beer rack" to work with the OEM seat

[surffly]

Nothing like cafe and and carbs in the morning!


 

[surffly]

Engine on the bench for better access.


Pulled the rear main seal bearing housing thing.
SUPER easy with special tool.


The offending oil.  I actually think most of of was coming from the lower bolts not sealing properly.


Looks like someone already addressed the cam seal


Bike had fresh oil though.


Kinda cool view.


Honestly dont think this bike was ever run after restoration.


Replaced the rear main seal(old one was hard as a rock), the bearing gasket, the two oil pipe crush washers and the other pipe gasket.
Figured it was a good idea "while I was there"


Alternator bracket that Grandpaul was asking about.


This just looks REALLY bad.

[smdl]

Great work!  Looks like you got most items on the list, but FYI:

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_engine_out__check_these_things.html

Note, you will want to route the metal oil line so it doesn't contact the alternator bracket.  If not, it will eventually wear through from chafing due to vibration.

Cheers,
Shaun

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Alternator bracket that Grandpaul was asking about.

I'd recommend replacing the bolts holding the alternator bracket to the engine case with hardened studs with large o.d. washers and locking nuts. Bolts tend to break off from stress, studs don't.

In this view of the crankshaft:

it looks like the crank has been scraping against something. Or is it just a trick of the camera or something?

[surffly]

Will have to correct that line, and those bolts.

You got me VERY worried about the crank now!
I did look inside the cases when I had the bearing out, and nothing jumped out at me then.
I think I would have noticed a scare that big.  Must just be a optical illusion or something.  There is not even something in that area for the crank to hit if my memory is correct.

[surffly]

Well I have some information about the springs.

The winner was "no springs installed"!
Unsure why that was the case.

Since I had to take most of the bike apart for different services I figured I might as well rebuild the forks at this time.
As you saw I bought the correct tools and parts for the job.
Everything came apart fine, almost too easy.
Some of the seals on the bike have turned dry and hard from sitting for so long after restoration.

Also fork rebuilding is a cheap thing to check off the list.

Not only did I buy the fork seals, but I bought the lower bushings.
But then my troubles started!

First the OD of the lower bushings is to large to work with the fork legs.
They bind and just do not fit correctly.
It is almost like they were not finally machined.


After I found that out I decided to just put the old bushings back in and call it a day.
Nope, cant do that....
The tool broke!
Freaking thing has a 1/2 drive, would think it would take some torque.


So finally I spent the rest of the afternoon chewing up the lower forks trying to get them apart....but no dice.
I tossed everything in a box and went home.


Contacted MGCycles and they immediately told me to return the items I was having issues with.
They have been very helpful, and for that I am thrilled.
I did not post about this until after we had the ball rolling to fix the issue.
No reason to bash a company or flat out bitch about things.  Stuff happens, and life goes on.

[rodekyll]

I don't think it's a good idea to have the crank shaft resting horizontal with the rear main out.  You are stressing the front bearing and other things.  Tip it on its nose.

$0.02

[arveno]

I have two sets of front fork springs , if you want a pair , pm me your address .
 

[surffly]

Nice three day weekend!
Spent most of it attempting to learn how to wake board.
Even though that did NOT go well, I did enjoy being out on the lake.

Rained all day Monday, so spent some time putting the carbs back together.


I need to look in the/a book/manual to find out what jet goes where.
Normally the jets only go in one location, so I never really think about it.
I know I should instantly know what jet is what, but I am lazy.


They came out fairly good.


My hope is one night this week I can wrap up the transmission seals.
After that the bike can start going back together.
Still need to order fork stuff though.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I need to look in the/a book/manual to find out what jet goes where.
Normally the jets only go in one location, so I never really think about it.
I know I should instantly know what jet is what, but I am lazy.

The larger jet (145 stock) goes in the brass jet holder, the smaller one (45 stock) goes into the carb body directly.

[surffly]

The larger jet (145 stock) goes in the brass jet holder, the smaller one (45 stock) goes into the carb body directly.

Thanks for the tip!
Saves me from looking it up!

[surffly]

Had a few minutes last night to mess with the bike.
Engine and transmission are on a bench in the shop.  At this point I do not trust a lot of the bike.
MANY nuts/bolts are hand tight and COVERED in anti seize paste that makes one heck of a mess.
Nothing is jumping out as wrong, damaged or broken though so that is good.  It just seems that everything is more mocked up, then ready to go.

None of this is a huge deal, just adds time.
At the end of the day I am actually okay with it all.  It will give me a change to "get to know" the bike and the systems.

Front engine cover had a goo seeping on the inside.  Unsure if that was a sealant?
Are there oil seals behind those gears that I should change?


Need to order a new alternator drive belt.
This one seems "new" but is dry and hard from sitting.
Cheap insurance.


My main focus was the transmission as I think I have all the parts in house to wrap it up.
It is also a smaller and more manageable evening job in my eyes.

One thing I have never seen before is ALL the leaking oil seals.
It seems that every seal on the bike is dry, hard and weeping.  Everything looks installed correctly and I see no signs of damage.
Just leaking seals.

Here is the transmission.


Even the O-Ring for the clutch activation!


I opened everything up for inspection.
All looks clean and proper.


Did find this little Easter egg.
Is it a normal marking?


Do have an actual question though.
How does this gear come off?
I need to remove it to change another leaking oil seal.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Are there oil seals behind those gears that I should change?




My main focus was the transmission as I think I have all the parts in house to wrap it up.
It is also a smaller and more manageable evening job in my eyes.

One thing I have never seen before is ALL the leaking oil seals.
It seems that every seal on the bike is dry, hard and weeping.  Everything looks installed correctly and I see no signs of damage.
Just leaking seals.

Here is the transmission.


Even the O-Ring for the clutch activation!


I opened everything up for inspection.
All looks clean and proper.


Did find this little Easter egg.
Is it a normal marking?


Do have an actual question though.
How does this gear come off?
I need to remove it to change another leaking oil seal.

There is no oil seal behind the timing gears to change. There is an o-ring behind the gear on the crankshaft though. Good idea to replace that while you're in there.

The nut on the output shaft is installed incorrectly - the beveled edge should face forward towards the star lock washer and bearing.

A leak from the throw-out bearing bore is common - the bore wears from use and the o-ring will no longer seal. Your best bet is to remove the bearings from the rear cover and send it to Patrick Hayes for him to install a stainless steel sleeve into the throw-out bore. Send the triangular selector cover too for him to cut an o-ring groove into. That will eliminate two possible leak areas.

The rear bearing on the output shaft shouldn't have come out of the rear cover like that. Most likely it's a loose fit due to incorrect installation in the past. Loctite Bearing Retainer will keep it in place, but you'll also likely need to put a shim between it and first gear in order for the transmission to shift correctly.

The plate that fits around the shift selector assembly (with the spring loaded pawls) is installed incorrectly - it should be flipped over. I can't see how the transmission ever shifted correctly with it like that. More information here:
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_transmission_-_4_speed_shifting_pawl_installation.html
Also, the components of the transmission need to be in a certain alignment during assembly or you'll end up with a two-speed transmission.
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_transmission_-_proper_shaft_alignment_for_a_4_speed_transmission.html

I've never seen markings like that - looks like it says "LAPD"?

There is a circlip that must be removed before the clutch hub can be pulled off. There is another behind it that will need to be removed in order to replace the seal.

[surffly]

There is no oil seal behind the timing gears to change. There is an o-ring behind the gear on the crankshaft though. Good idea to replace that while you're in there.

The nut on the output shaft is installed incorrectly - the beveled edge should face forward towards the star lock washer and bearing.

A leak from the throw-out bearing bore is common - the bore wears from use and the o-ring will no longer seal. Your best bet is to remove the bearings from the rear cover and send it to Patrick Hayes for him to install a stainless steel sleeve into the throw-out bore. Send the triangular selector cover too for him to cut an o-ring groove into. That will eliminate two possible leak areas.

The rear bearing on the output shaft shouldn't have come out of the rear cover like that. Most likely it's a loose fit due to incorrect installation in the past. Loctite Bearing Retainer will keep it in place, but you'll also likely need to put a shim between it and first gear in order for the transmission to shift correctly.

The plate that fits around the shift selector assembly (with the spring loaded pawls) is installed incorrectly - it should be flipped over. I can't see how the transmission ever shifted correctly with it like that. More information here:
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_transmission_-_4_speed_shifting_pawl_installation.html
Also, the components of the transmission need to be in a certain alignment during assembly or you'll end up with a two-speed transmission.
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_transmission_-_proper_shaft_alignment_for_a_4_speed_transmission.html

I've never seen markings like that - looks like it says "LAPD"?

There is a circlip that must be removed before the clutch hub can be pulled off. There is another behind it that will need to be removed in order to replace the seal.

Thank you so much for the help.

Will look into what is involved in replacing that O-Ring.  Like you said, I am already there.

There is an O-Ring in the bore of the throw out.  There was a "trust bearing" type thing on the cap.  That came apart in a million pieces. 
I assume Patrick is a member here?  Since the bike will not be on the road any time soon his modification doesnt sound like a bad idea.

Unsure what bearing you mean on the output shaft. 

I honestly do not think this bike was ever ridden or even started after "restoration" so it is 100% possible the transmission would have never worked at all.  I will read those links and review the drawings Vs what I have to see if I can figure out whats what.

Yeah the markings seem to say LAPD.  Kind of funny.  Unsure if that means anything at all.

I removed the outer circlip from the hub and can feel the one behind.  I dont know how the hub itself is removed though. Is it simply a press fit and a puller is needed?  Or another special tool to un-thread it?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Thank you so much for the help.

Will look into what is involved in replacing that O-Ring.  Like you said, I am already there.

There is an O-Ring in the bore of the throw out.  There was a "trust bearing" type thing on the cap.  That came apart in a million pieces. 
I assume Patrick is a member here?  Since the bike will not be on the road any time soon his modification doesnt sound like a bad idea.

Unsure what bearing you mean on the output shaft. 

I honestly do not think this bike was ever ridden or even started after "restoration" so it is 100% possible the transmission would have never worked at all.  I will read those links and review the drawings Vs what I have to see if I can figure out whats what.

Yeah the markings seem to say LAPD.  Kind of funny.  Unsure if that means anything at all.

I removed the outer circlip from the hub and can feel the one behind.  I dont know how the hub itself is removed though. Is it simply a press fit and a puller is needed?  Or another special tool to un-thread it?

The crankshaft gear should just pull straight off since you have everything forward of it removed. It might take a little force to remove it. Make sure you take note of the position of the paint timing marks and install it in the same position as it came off.

Contact Patrick at pehayes@comcast.net

The ball bearing on the output shaft in this photo, top right:

It should be an interference fit in the rear cover.

The clutch hub is slip fit normally, though some do fit tighter and require a puller to remove. There are no threads on the front of the input layshaft/clutch shaft.

[surffly]

Any links or info for a DIY transmission rebuild?
I guess at this point it is wise to remove everything and install it properly.
What would the ball part price be to have someone do it?  Cycle Garden?

But I guess it can not be that much worse then the Norton Commando gear box I rebuilt last season.
More time then anything else.

Should I be worried that the output shaft bearing is tighter to the shaft then the cover?

Any special tools I should order before digging deeper into the transmission.
Would like to cross the transmission off the list first, before moving onto the next "system"

Thanks again for the help.

[surffly]

Sorry, I did not realize that you were also a restoration shop.

[smdl]

Yes, Charlie does run a repair/restoration shop, and would be a great candidate if you would like to have the gearbox rebuilt by someone else.  Could be an interesting exercise considering the way it has been "restored" already.

If you decide to do it yourself, you'll find some good information here:

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_complex-technical.htm

Cheers,
Shaun

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Any links or info for a DIY transmission rebuild?
I guess at this point it is wise to remove everything and install it properly.
What would the ball part price be to have someone do it?  Cycle Garden?

But I guess it can not be that much worse then the Norton Commando gear box I rebuilt last season.
More time then anything else.

Should I be worried that the output shaft bearing is tighter to the shaft then the cover?

Any special tools I should order before digging deeper into the transmission.
Would like to cross the transmission off the list first, before moving onto the next "system"

Thanks again for the help.

There are links on This Old Tractor that will help, but not a step-by-step tutorial of a rebuild. Two days earlier and I could have maybe done one as I just finished repairs to a 4-speed. Next one isn't for a few weeks.

I can rebuild it for you, so can Harper's, Sean Fader and a few other folks. But, if you did a Norton transmission, then a Loop 4 speed should be easy. You just need to pay attention to how a few key areas go together. If you'd like to  discuss cost with me, email c.d.mullendore@att.net.

I wouldn't be "worried" unless the rear cover is so worn that the bearing is a sloppy fit. Then you'll need a new rear cover. Otherwise, Loctite Bearing Retainer should do the job. From the factory that bearing was never completely bottomed out in it's bore or left to "float". Not a good idea except maybe on a fully straight-cut gear transmission. In a helical gear transmission, the output shaft could slide back and forth with throttle on/throttle off and that's why the bearing is loose. I drive the bearing completely into it's bore and then add shims between  it and first gear. To determine how thick of a shim, you'll need to measure how far the bearing is recessed into the rear cover (measuring from the gasket surface to the inner race of the bearing) and how far the face of first gear is below the gasket surface of the case. This can be done with nothing more than a straight edge and feeler gauges. I find that the shim needed is usually in the .027" to .031" range. 

I would recommend, while you're in there, having a look at the bushing for 4th gear to make sure it's not fractured. It's normally "top hat" shaped, sometimes the "brim" breaks off.

There are no special tools necessary to go deeper into the transmission.

[surffly]

Had some time this weekend to dig into the bike.
At this point I feel like I have a bunch of open items on the list that are almost done.
Almost being the key word.

First order of business was to button up the engine.


I still want to pop the valve covers off to double check that timing is set correctly, the valves are adjusted and everything is installed right.
So far I have learned that with this bike at least, that time is time well spent.

Next on the list was the transmission.
All the guts removed and case cleaned.


Gear oil was fresh, I really do not think this bike was ever run!



Some discoloring, but I do not think there is any problem


But the day was not without some issues.
I was having a heck of a time pulling the clutch hub off it's shaft....
Used a fair bit of heat and penetrating oil.
But I reverted to a Neanderthal and hit it with a hammer.
Ended up cracking the shaft.
So now I need a replacement.
Anyone got one?


Not really excited about the setback, but it is my own fault.
Will be hunting for a replacement.
Or talk to me about a 5 speed swap.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

But I reverted to a Neanderthal and hit it with a hammer.
Ended up cracking the shaft.
So now I need a replacement.
Anyone got one?

Will be hunting for a replacement.
Or talk to me about a 5 speed swap.

Check with Curtis @ Harper's Moto Guzzi for a replacement shaft. 

Swapping in a 5 speed opens up a new "can of worms". First off is finding one in good condition - you'll need one from an early Guzzi (Eldo, T, T3) in order to have a rear cover with the "hanger" for the shift shaft. From an Eldo would be optimum, but with some machining and a hole drilled in the battery tray, the T/T3 unit can be made to work. Or if you could find an Eldo rear cover, a 5 spd. of nearly any vintage can be used with that cover swapped on. Any 5 spd. will likely need some work internally as well, maybe more than your 4 speed.

Then there's the shift shaft (between the pedal and transmission) which is different length, and the linkage which is also different.

The biggest issue will be rear drive gearing. If your present gearing is 8/37 (8 teeth on the pinion and 37 on the ring gear), then you'd be okay. However, if it's 8/35, then it would need to be changed to 8/37 or something very close. Otherwise, you'll be slipping the clutch like mad to get moving from a standstill and 5th won't be usable until about 70 mph.

IMO, it's just not worth it.

[surffly]

Saw this "cheap" so I jumped on it.
Think it is the correct part.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/331286515508

[surffly]

Part cam in last night.
Looks correct.
Will match it up with the one I broke this weekend to make sure.

[surffly]

Matched the shafts up last night and everything looks good to go.
My plan is to lay out the whole transmission and inspect the gears, bearings, clips, bushings ect for damage, wear and improper installation.
Should be a fun and rather zen process.

Fork springs should be here tomorrow.
I bought those fancy progressive wound ones.
It is only money at the end of the day....

Transmission covers are at Mr Hayes' shop being modified.

Bike is slowly plugging away.
Anyone going to be at MidO next weekend?

[surffly]

Parts back from Mt Hayes.

Crazy fast turn around time.



I will need to get some new throw out bearing parts.

[surffly]

Great weekend out at Mid Ohio.
Always fun to meet up with members, drink beer, wonder the swap meet and generally have a good time.

Rained like all hell Friday (would not be MidO without some rain), but did manage to buy a few needed parts.
Last two years have been kind of dry for me.  I am chalking it up to the fact that I have a fairly well stocked garage and do not have a whole lot of "needs".
Or maybe I am growing as a person and not constantly buying any old junk?

About 5 minutes after getting to the swap meet I found an airbox for the Guzzi!



Will need to be blasted, painted/coated and the rubbers replaced, but I am happy.
$13!
How can you beat that?

While I LOVE to mock the current pods on the bike, the fact is that they work and there is no mechanical reason to replace them.
I want to go back to the stock airbox purely for aesthetics.
I prefer the look of the box.  I like that it hides the electrical and the battery.  I also think that it looks more "finished" if that makes any sense.

There was not a whole lot of Guzzi stuff or bikes at the event.
I did see this parked at a "dealer's" booth in the meet.

[Rick4003]

Looks good all of it. Continue the updates on the board Even if it looks like nobody is following, we are  

-Ulrik

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

About 5 minutes after getting to the swap meet I found an airbox for the Guzzi!



Will need to be blasted, painted/coated and the rubbers replaced, but I am happy.
$13!
How can you beat that?

While I LOVE to mock the current pods on the bike, the fact is that they work and there is no mechanical reason to replace them.
I want to go back to the stock airbox purely for aesthetics.
I prefer the look of the box.  I like that it hides the electrical and the battery.  I also think that it looks more "finished" if that makes any sense.

MG Cycle offers new airboxes for about the cost of buying and rehabbing an original.

Pay close attention to the seal between the rubber boot and the airbox cover plate during installation. They never seal very well without a little help, poor seal = dirt into the engine. I apply a bead of Permatex Ultra Black RTV to the boot to make sure it seals. 

[surffly]

I have a buddy that does small black coatings for me fairly cheap, so I am sure I will still come out ahead on the air box.

Been REALLY lacking motivation on this, and other projects lately.
Have been selling off A LOT of parts, almost to the point of listing some of the projects in the back of the garage.