Flat Tappet Failures & Early 8V Engines

[Old Jock]

I know this has been thrashed so many times and believe me I've done quite a bit of searching and reading, although I seem to be no wiser

The issues as reported, all seem to relate to Grisos and 1200 sports in the main but others too. The thing that I see that's common is the bikes that are reported are from around 2005 onwards, or at least the cases I've been reading about.

The reason for posting is I'm thinking about getting an earlier 8V bike, circa 99 or so with the Daytona RS engine and from what I've read I have seen people posting that ALL 8V  models are prone to failure.

I'm trying to confirm this and I'm also left wondering that if this is the case how come it never seems to have surfaced until reasonably recently. I owned a Daytona for over 10 years, only around 15k miles on her, but when I sold it 2006 nobody seemed to be aware of this problem.

From the posts on here  and other forums this problem only seems to have been a hot topic since around 2012

Second question is, if the earlier 8V engines (Daytona) are prone to failure, can these 8V engines circa 2000 and before, be converted?

As I understand some bikes can get the conversions and other models cannot

As usual I've probably got this all horribly wrong but as I'm not up to speed with the more modern models and a lot of the posts on the topic seemed to have been typed out on an Enigma machine rather that a keyboard.

John

[guzzisteve]

Later 8V motors came out in 09 in USA and have been problematic since day 1, the earlier 8V from 93-05 not so much, they had their own set of problems.

If you like it, buy it, fix it, ride it.

[pauldaytona]

John , the daytona (RS) engine was made from 1991 to 1997 and 133 more with the mgs01. But they have nothing in common with the new 4v(also called 8v) engines.

[ohiorider]

Weren't the older 8v engines a derivative of the ones developed by Dr John Wittmer, or something totally different?

Bob

[Tusayan]

The original '93 through '98 Guzzi eight valve engines were designed and developed by Umberto Todero in Mandello, then tested in US racing by John Wittner and team. If memory serves Wittner used people in the US to get the porting worked out and this was reflected in the production heads.  The heads ran hot and it took a while to find an alloy that would withstand the high operating temps in stop and go traffic, so producion was delayed until the '93 model year.  Both Daytona and Centauros had the engine, in I believe three slightly different production versions differing in ignition details, cams, connecting rods etc.  Plus another version for the MGS-01, with just a few built some time after serial production was stopped.

The issues with the original 1990's 8V heads are that they occasionally crack due to quality problems reflecting difficulty in casting the high temp alloy, valve guides wear over time plus there are occasional tappet issues but probably no more than the 4V bikes of the same period.  Also the aluminum gears driving the cams and oil pump on these engines are not up to the job: the aluminum teeth wear and the oil pump gear breaks in half. Steel replacements are sporadically available from Joe Caruso in the UK.

All of the above are solvable and/or manageable issues if you want a Guzzi or Magni with this engine.

P.S. When Aprilia wanted to re-do the Centauro and build the Griso, they originally planned on using the Centauro engine but with their CARC rear drive to allow a wider tire.  Here are some photos of the 2002 prototype with Centauro engine http://www.epfguzzi.com/models/Grisop.html After their takeover, Piaggio decided not to restart Centauro engine production but instead to use the 4V engine for initial MY 2007 Griso production and reengineer the 8V, moving the cam drive to the rear of the heads for improved air cooling and switching to chains to make it fit in that location.  That engine was introduced in 2008, had it own development problems with the lifters but was eventually sorted out.

[Old Jock]

Thank you all for the replies 

So it appears a bit of disinformation was being spread regarding the ALL 8V bikes statement, which I seen more than once.

WHEW!!!! That has set my mind at rest, the last thing I was wanting was to start looking into the logistics of getting a roller tappet kit.

Tusayan

Thanks also for the additional info on the gears, I'm aware of that weakness and also the fragility of the oil pump too.

If I get this machine, then I'll be installing a kit from Joe including the pair of steel gears and the DAS oil pump which Joe sells as a package from time to time

Please forgive my ignorance but being the age I am, technology stopped for me at the turn of the century

John

[Wayne Orwig]

So it appears a bit of disinformation was being spread regarding the ALL 8V bikes statement, which I seen more than once.

Not really.

Only the newer 1200cc, 2009 on, 4 valve head was called an 8V. Which is a confusing description.

The earlier 4 valve head motor was often referred to as a V10, since it was a 1000cc. Yes, I had people ask if it was a 10 cylinder.

The main issue is with the newer 1200cc 4 valve head which is oddly called an 8V. But the early 1000cc V10 had some other issues. But either one can put a big grin on your face.
 

[Tusayan]

The earlier 4 valve head motor was often referred to as a V10, since it was a 1000cc.

That terminology was not used prior to the V10 Centauro to describe the same engines used on Daytonas, so I've always considered V10 as part of the Centauro's model name, not the engine's name.  The man who designed the engine with 'OHC 4V' cast into the valve covers did not name the motorcycle.  Regardless, they were just playing with words for publicity and evidently none of it was taken very seriously. 

The main issue is with the newer 1200cc 4 valve head which is oddly called an 8V

Yes, the Griso has two 'Quattrovalvole' labelled valve covers on a bike called the Griso 8V... 

That is surely confusing!

[rocker59]

the Griso has two 'Quattrovalvole' labelled valve covers on a bike called the Griso 8V... 

Which makes sense..  The head has four valves.  The motorcycle has two cylinders and eight valves...

Porsche 928-S4 was also badged "32 valve".

[Nick]

And to confuse things a little more they also had a Moto Guzzi 1200 Sport 4V (not in the US). It had the same engine as the Griso/Stelvio/Norge, but they labeled/called it a 4V

[Tusayan]

Porsche 928-S4 was also badged "32 valve".

And a Ferrari 308 QV (Quattrovalvole = Four Valve) also has 32 valves...

There is no convention but who cares, it's just fun names.

[pete roper]

It wasn't so much disinformation John as just applied to the topic at hand. When discussing the flat tappet fiasco it has always been as an adjunct to a conversation on the CARC bikes. To say that it might apply to all 8V engines could, using that same logic, imply that any engine with over two valves per cylinder from any manufacturer was destined for failure.

As for the first generation Hi-Cams? While fun to ride they are very much a 'Collection of parts' rather than a seamless integrated whole and as has been pointed out they have a smorgasbord of issues built into them. In comparison the second generation mill is practically unburstable, (Flat tappet problem excepted.) and the entire package is far more of a rounded whole than either the Daytonas or Centy's.

Pete

[Travlr]

>If I get this machine, then I'll be installing a kit from Joe including the pair of steel gears and the DAS oil pump which Joe sells as a package >from time to time

Smart man, good insurance.
Altho you could probably just bush the standard oil pump and save some $$$'s.

Mike

[Old Jock]

Thanks all for the additional answers

I hear you Pete, maybe I was a little harsh stating "disinformation" and did not understand that the term 8 valve is generically used to describe the later engines, for that I apologize

I agree with Tusayan that the V10 designation was a Centauro epithet in fact, like him I thought it was an integral component of the bikes name. I never heard the term V10 used in relation to the Daytona series of engines.

Regarding the term 8 valve I'm throwing around here, I much prefer to use 4 valve and 2 valve, but using the 4 valve term is ambiguous as people started to refer to the number of valves in the complete engine rather than an individual cylinder.

Maybe I'm just such an unfeeling clod and out of tune with the finer points of the bikes, but I do have an affection for the Daytona mill, I've also never ridden a CARC bike (Gasp!!!).

Sure later engines will be better, they invariably are, but when I had a Daytona the one thing that I loved about it was the stonking motor, the handling not so much.

On a fast A road with wide sweepers it was a complete blast. On tight twisties it could be described as exciting, but that was for a whole different set of reasons.

The old girl, happy days............... ..why am I now feeling strangely sad

[pauldaytona]

the 4v heads are the best looking guzzi heads made, the whole engine is a beauty:

[pete roper]

You, my friend, are heavily biased. But your six speed Daytona gives you that right. In my book it's the most pants wetingly beautiful Spiney on earth!

Do you want a gearbox or the tools?

Pete

[pauldaytona]

You, my friend, are heavily biased. But your six speed Daytona gives you that right. In my book it's the most pants wetingly beautiful Spiney on earth!

Do you want a gearbox or the tools?

Pete

Pete could be that insurance pays it all, I hope to know in a week.

[Old Jock]

Paul, I agree I think the Daytona engines have a certain brutish beauty to them

From what I know of your bike it's one of the best around and a testimony to your skill.

6 Speed box and the final drive looks trick too

Tell me Paul why the deep sump, I thought it unnecessary on the broad sump bikes and did a standard deep sump just bolt on?

The sump looks very similar to the Moto Spezial I have on the LM 1000, or am I imagining it?

John

[pauldaytona]

Yes is the sump that once was made by Moto Special. The word was that it cools so good, you don't need an oilcooler. Also cavitation is ruled out. I ran it a long time without cooler, no problem on track days because its at speed and max 20 minutes. On the road when in stop and go traffic the engine went way to hot.  So I ended up with a sandwich plate with thermostat. And a v11 cooler.
Since then engine is much lower temp. But in stand still traffic you will need a fan. Little place for that.   

[weevee]

You're not alone in being confused as to which 8v bikes suffer from which ailments, John.  I've read all the horror stories about flaking cams and worried about mine (..although I've found no evidence of a problem when I've checked oil & clearances etc.  I suspect my oil pump's fine too ~ although I still have the Caruso pump & steel gear in a box waiting to go on it).

As to overheating:  My bike is fitted with the spacer on the sump, and this mates with a small oil-cooler.  An oil temperature gauge resides in the fairing (beneath the twistgrip ~ see pic) so I can see immediately how hot it's getting when on the move.  In truth, the bike runs a little cool most of the time; so much so that I often extend any run-out in order to let it reach operating temp. before I head home.  I can't remember ever seeing much over 85 deg on the gauge, even in busy traffic.

Steve

ps.  If you ever need any impossible-to-find Magni-related decals/graphics or resin-domed tank-protectors etc. just let me know.  There's not much I can't produce/re-produce.

     

     

[Old Jock]

Steve

I may well take you up on your offer "IF" it all pans out, it's very kind of you to offer.

Drop me a mail about the tank protectors with some pics if you don't mind. I'm looking for something for the 1100 and on the "1100 takes shape" thread you can see on the last post that the tank has a lug/trunion to secure the rear tank strap. So I'd quite like to get something suitable for it.

You certainly were pretty jammy with your machine its magnificent, then before that the MV, which was simply stunning too. I have some of the old video I streamed of your ride outs that you posted up on You Tube.

Can you suggest any lottery numbers?

That's a really nice setup with the oil cooler and either you or the PO had a lot of guts to take a hole saw to an Oz fairing. Once more though it looks beautifully executed.

I'm glad its not just me that was confused about the whole thing, it had me wound up in knots and the more I read the more confused I became, but then again that's not a particularly unusual state of mind for me.

John

[guzzisteve]

If you want a late one, they are pricey

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2006-Moto-Guzzi-MGS-01-/222544490275?hash=item33d0af6f23:g:2JoAAOSwXetZP7FM&vxp=mtr

Listing says 06, on their website it's listed as an 04. About double what you could have one built on order if you could get it.

[weevee]

Steve

I may well take you up on your offer "IF" it all pans out, it's very kind of you to offer.

Drop me a mail about the tank protectors with some pics if you don't mind. I'm looking for something for the 1100 and on the "1100 takes shape" thread you can see on the last post that the tank has a lug/trunion to secure the rear tank strap. So I'd quite like to get something suitable for it.

You certainly were pretty jammy with your machine its magnificent, then before that the MV, which was simply stunning too. I have some of the old video I streamed of your ride outs that you posted up on You Tube.

Can you suggest any lottery numbers?

That's a really nice setup with the oil cooler and either you or the PO had a lot of guts to take a hole saw to an Oz fairing. Once more though it looks beautifully executed.

I'm glad its not just me that was confused about the whole thing, it had me wound up in knots and the more I read the more confused I became, but then again that's not a particularly unusual state of mind for me.

John

Pretty much all of my produce is 'bespoke', John, and because Magni owners (..as customers) are a bit thin on the ground, I've nothing Magni-related to show you!  I do have a web site though, showing the mutitude of tankpads & decals I've supplied for owners of other marques, so I'll PM you with a link to it.  (I can generally make something to order within a week.  A selection of tankpads can be seen below).

I can't take the credit (..or blame!) for the temp. gauge in the Australia's fairing: it was fitted when I bought the bike.  I personally wouldn't have fitted it there: I'd have left the fairing intact and fitted a smaller gauge twixt the odometer & rev-counter.  It's a handy thing to have though, so I'll leave it be for now.  (If the day ever comes when the fairing needs repainting, I may just relocate it).  The oil cooler, on the other hand, was actually held on with only cable ties when I bought the bike.  They were simply wrapped around the frame tubes!

Steve

Update: (PM now sent, John ~ I think!)

   

   

[weevee]

If you want a late one, they are pricey

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2006-Moto-Guzzi-MGS-01-/222544490275?hash=item33d0af6f23:g:2JoAAOSwXetZP7FM&vxp=mtr

Listing says 06, on their website it's listed as an 04. About double what you could have one built on order if you could get it.

The MGS-01 has always left me feeling a bit luke-warm.  I'm not sure its modern/angular lines & instruments suit the stone-aged look of the Guzzi engine.   

[pauldaytona]

These guys are in this business for years, will be high dollars.

 I emailed them:

2004 #34 with 107kms 42k euros
2006 #85 with 2700kms 37k euros

[Old Jock]

The MGS-01 has always left me feeling a bit luke-warm.  I'm not sure its modern/angular lines & instruments suit the stone-aged look of the Guzzi engine.   

Couldn't agree more.

That said if space and cash were not limiting factors I'd probably have one. 

[weevee]

Couldn't agree more.

That said if space and cash were not limiting factors I'd probably have one. 

I looked at a brand new MGS-01 in my local dealership when I had my eye open for an Australia, but it didn't really appeal to me.  It's just too stylized for my taste.  I much prefer the more organic curves of the Magni.  Maybe I'm just old-fashioned?? 

I got your e-mail address John, thanks.

Cheers
Steve