plastic caged trans. bearings

[spmoto]

Sorry to bring this back around but I couldn't find anything archived using the search function. I just bought a '91 Le Mans and due to a leaking trans. seal or clutch push rod o-ring I have to go in and replace the clutch and take care of seals and such. While I'm there I'm thinking I should replace the problematic bearings, IF, in fact they were used in '91. Does anyone know when Guzzi started using said bearings??
Thanks,
Steve

[oldbike54]

 Not 100% positive , but seem to remember the first plastic bearings were used in '98 on the EV . Anyone know for sure ?

 Dusty

[guzzisteve]

91's are safe.

[kidneb]

Hmm,- sorry to disturb, but I seem to remember that I`ve read somewhere that the very last of the LMIIIs had them, and that certainly the LM1000 from `95 and on did, but who am I to say.

[groundhog105]

My 89 Lemans trans had the plastic cages.

[Chuck in Indiana]

My 89 Lemans trans had the plastic cages.

Well, there went that theory. 

[pete roper]

Yup, they changed from the AC3 to ATN9 in about 85/86. About the time the MkIV Le Mans came out.

Pete

[guzzisteve]

You don't see as many failures from back then cause riders didn't use syn oil as much. Something I never used.   

How's that theory Chuck

I thick most is all bull anyway, my 86 Cali got over 125K and it's still fine too. So is my 98EV. Comes down to what service & abuse they have.

[spmoto]

Thanks for the confirmation. So, what's the recommendation? Should they be replaced, and what with? Pete, do you have a suggestion, part number?

Thanks all!

[Arizona Wayne]

If you stick to dino tranny oil you won't have any issues.  It's the synthetic oil that causes the issue. 

[wymple]

Take your bearings to a bearing outfit like Motion, they will size & cross reference them, and get you real steel. Probably cost less as well. 

[pete roper]

NTN 3205AC3. 14 ball per race, serpentine cage with filling slot.



Pete

[Old Jock]

I'll just do my grandstanding as usual in case you might want to use it, or Pete's writes up on the box if you have never been there before.

Here

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_complex-technical.htm

You can see both Pete's write up and mine, might help a wee bit.

Pete's is technical

Mine is an idiot's guide (as that's what the writer is)

The box was a revelation to me, I was surprised by the simplicity......... ............one of the many reasons I love Guzzis

Shimming the drum in Pete's write up is worth the trouble too if you're in there

Interesting that everybody is now stating it's synthetic oil causing the issue, when I was trying to get information, the community view was synthetic was not an issue.

I always ran the box on synthetic and the ATN 9s were fine when I took it apart.............. ...I replaced because I did not want to go back in there again in a hurry.

I am NOT saying that running synthetic lubricants in the box is the work of Beelzebub  , because I just don't know and I also do NOT want to start a bleedin oil thread   

John

[radguzzi]

Steve,
I have the clutch alignment tools, flywheel and ring gear locking tool you will need for the clutch, tranny hub nut socket, rear main seal driver (if it comes to that) etc.
You are welcome to them.

Best,
Rob

[Dilliw]

In the U.S. that bearing is harder to find this bearing but it is used by 70's/80’s Husky kickers and there is a thread on Café Husky somewhere:

ZKL 3205 New Force c3 is the old design, 14 ball with a serpentine metal cage.  Czech made.

SKF 3205 E c3 13 ball max fill with a modern metal cage.  About twice as much as the ZKL's.

I read somewhere (maybe Pete) that is might be fewer number of balls or it might be the resin cage that causes the failure.  Either one of the above solves both problems.

[Groover]

Great write-ups Pete Roper and Old Jock. Thanks for doing those.

Spmoto, it's my understanding some of the very late MKV came with straight-cut gears, same as the ones used in the 1987 SE MKIV (according to Guzziology). Curious to see if yours are like that. Is this the black one that was listed on MGOC classifieds?

[Wayne Orwig]

Interesting that everybody is now stating it's synthetic oil causing the issue, when I was trying to get information, the community view was synthetic was not an issue.

http://www.skf.com/group/products/bearings-units-housings/ball-bearings/deep-groove-ball-bearings/stainless-steel-deep-groove-ball-bearings/cages/index.html

[Groover]

http://www.skf.com/group/products/bearings-units-housings/ball-bearings/deep-groove-ball-bearings/stainless-steel-deep-groove-ball-bearings/cages/index.html

Hard to deny the issue when the actual manufacturer mentions something like that, and I thing of SKF as being one of the best ball bearing manufactures out there.

Good to know. Just what I need; more things to be paranoid about. Great. 

Edit: Trying really hard here to not turn this into an oil thread, but I believe EP stands for Extreme Pressure, so anything that says Extreme Pressure on the bottle would be an EP rated oil.

[Old Jock]

Ok thanks Wayne

That write up must have been around as the consensus was the bearings would not run hot enough for synthetic to be an issue.

I haven't poured over it in detail yet but SKF (who I agree are about as good as they get) state 120 deg C, although lower temp limit could be 80 depending on what is in the oil.

Personally I would not have thought the gearbox or the bearings inside would reach 120 but 80 sounds possible.

Given that statement I would not run with Synth to be on the safe side if you still have the polymer cages.

I'm sure EP is Extra Pressure (or is it Extreme Pressure) usually a Sulphur additive as I recall

Every day a school day

Ok I'm going to get my coat as I do not want to

a) Pull this thread off topic
b) Worst of all turn it into an oil thread

John

[Arizona Wayne]

What I stated here is what those that had caged bearing failures on later EV trannies when using synth. oil in them.  It was recommended to them to use dino GL-5 EP oil instead.

I have always used dino GL-5 EP oils in my tranny, rear ends in `71 Ambo., `77, `80 Converts, `81 CX100, `87 LM IV , `04 750 Breva with no issues.    I don't add anything else to the oil.

[Old Jock]

Guess this means I need to update my write up soon too!!! 

[Lesman]

Does the Quota run plastic cage bearings? You should not run Mobil One in the tranny?

[Old Jock]

Checked the numbers against my LM 1000 and they were still issuing ATN 9s till well late

In fact go to Stein Dinse for instance and it's the polymer caged bearings you get if you order a new one with the part number 92218424

Same part number in the Quota manual

Although I cannot say with 100%................ but................ ..if its a 5 speed box then it is almost certain that the box contains the dreaded ATN9s with the Polymer cages 

[Mr Revhead]

I've just done this on my 03 Cali.
Read those write ups, have the parts book ready and just think about each step and you can't go wrong. It's easier than it looks, as long as you think about each step in regards to little bits that can drop out and runaway.

If you're going to shim the drum, you have to take the case off, then you can see the output bearing so you will know what you have then.

The bearings on mine tapped out very easily. I put the new ones in the freezer, and the heated the case in the oven to 60 deg C and they all but fell in.
However, tip: before you fit the bearings, do the first step of shimming the selector drum. The bit where you measure how much extra shim you need. That will give you more room to fit a finer inside to spin and wiggle the drum as with the bearings in place, I could just get my little finger in there.
If, however, your hands are not like gorilla paws then you'll be fine.

Also, air tools. Getting those input and out put nuts undone is pretty damn hard. I gave up and borrowed an impact gun as I could not budge them.
You will need someone to help you tighten them up.

[antmanbee]

Is there any issue with the bearings in the rear drive? I have read threads about Guzzi's using Red Line Heavy Shockproof synthetic in the rear drive and maybe in the gearbox too.
How long of use of the synthetic oil will cause the damage? Is it over many years or is a year or two of exposure enough to ruin the bearings?

[BigDave in PA]

I used to believe the scare about using synthetic oil. At 70,000 miles of Amsoil use I decided to replace the ones in my '01 EV. I bought 11 of the ac3s on ebay for about $7.00 each. When I opened up the gear box I found that my plastic cage ones were still like new. I replaced them anyway and have about 9 ac3s left. Amsoil severe gear states that it is compatible with yellow metals also.

[kfz]

Is there any issue with the bearings in the rear drive? I have read threads about Guzzi's using Red Line Heavy Shockproof synthetic in the rear drive and maybe in the gearbox too.
How long of use of the synthetic oil will cause the damage? Is it over many years or is a year or two of exposure enough to ruin the bearings?

The long and short of it around 1986 Guzzi changed from the metal caged high capacity output bearing on the box (sorry I use UK slang just to annoy you all) to keep the beancounters happy. Unfortunately HP's where going up with the 5 speed box with the LM5, 1000EV and Sport and they sometimes break up the bearing. Synthetic oil has nothing to do with it (but it may leak past your 30 years petrified fossil of a seal).   

The fix is to swap the beaking back to the old one and do Pete's gearbox refresh at the same time.  The bearing is a bit pricey but hell your good to go for another 100K.

Kev