They paid the guys who designed this?

[drdwb]

I would like to poss a question to the collective group about questionable design decisions that were incorporated into our Guzzi's.

I'll start with having the oil filter in the oil pan, I ve heard the arguments that it makes you take a closer look at your engine when you change oil but still it's an extra hassle that didn't have to be. Yes I know there are outsiders to remedy that but on my wife 04 Stone the extension of the pan caused serious problems going over a oversized speed bump. Outsider since removed.

But my lastest question has to do with the little rubber spacers that occupy the rear tire  hub of the 750 Breva, this just adds additional stress when trying to reinstall  a new tire,  if you haven't seen this set up its worth looking at,it's a head scratcher on why they had to do it when it's so much simpler on the California  model s.

So those are my 2 starters any other examples?

[rodekyll]

When you know what those things are, they look a little less stupid, and .  . . ummm. .  . . .   well, I'll let it rest there.   

[oldbike54]

 OP didn't grow up on old Brit bikes . Spacers everywhere 

 Dusty

[Huzo]

I would like to poss a question to the collective group about questionable design decisions that were incorporated into our Guzzi's.

I'll start with having the oil filter in the oil pan, I ve heard the arguments that it makes you take a closer look at your engine when you change oil but still it's an extra hassle that didn't have to be. Yes I know there are outsiders to remedy that but on my wife 04 Stone the extension of the pan caused serious problems going over a oversized speed bump. Outsider since removed.

But my lastest question has to do with the little rubber spacers that occupy the rear tire  hub of the 750 Breva, this just adds additional stress when trying to reinstall  a new tire,  if you haven't seen this set up its worth looking at,it's a head scratcher on why they had to do it when it's so much simpler on the California  model s.

So those are my 2 starters any other examples?

How did you like taking the lower left fairing panel half off to check the oil level ? Teo Lamers extension remedy. Stupid up/down switches for the screen ? Install two way switch on the fairing panel directly below left grip. There's another two for you, I could go on but the other mods I did were cosmetic... Oh, and how about the poxy original map that threatened to detonate the guts out of your motor, ( mostly left side). Beetle and Roper fix. The rest of the forum'll thank you if you don't get me started on the other stuff.  Bike's trouble free now @ 130,000 and I would not sell it for twice it's current value. PS, did anyone mention startups interruptus ? How about the beaut drive splines and suspension bearings that are delivered as dry as a ***'* **** ! BTW it's an '07 Norge, love the bastard and always have !

[rocker59]

I would like to poss a question to the collective group about questionable design decisions that were incorporated into our Guzzi's.

I'll start with having the oil filter in the oil pan, I ve heard the arguments that it makes you take a closer look at your engine when you change oil but still it's an extra hassle that didn't have to be. 

I you look at your owners manual, I think you'll find the recommended change interval for the oil filter is NOT at every oil change.

So, if you only change it every second or third oil change, is the oil filter in the pan really that big a deal ???

[Idontwantapickle]

I would like to poss a question to the collective group about questionable design decisions that were incorporated into our Guzzi's.

I'll start with having the oil filter in the oil pan, I ve heard the arguments that it makes you take a closer look at your engine when you change oil but still it's an extra hassle that didn't have to be. Yes I know there are outsiders to remedy that but on my wife 04 Stone the extension of the pan caused serious problems going over a oversized speed bump. Outsider since removed.

But my lastest question has to do with the little rubber spacers that occupy the rear tire  hub of the 750 Breva, this just adds additional stress when trying to reinstall  a new tire,  if you haven't seen this set up its worth looking at,it's a head scratcher on why they had to do it when it's so much simpler on the California  model s.

So those are my 2 starters any other examples?

There's no real mystery if you look at the big picture.
Companies have a culture to them, engineering development has a culture as well, a way of proceeding that is subtle but very human and will vary between organizations even when following the same rules. That's why GM cars aren't just like Ford or Dodge.
Guzzi is no different.
Now add in two more factors, money and lawyers. Given the time (which is money) and money an engineer can absolutely perfect a system. OK, not perfect but get it REALLY good. Not gonna happen IRL. And the risk management will bend the design to ensure the company doesn't go broke because of an idiot who mishandled the product. That is why Norge is known to have a starting issue, lawyers want the key switch to break the circuit.

[Arizona Wayne]

If you're frustrated by oil/filter changes on a Guzzi, then DON"T buy any KTM bike !!!    They make your Guzzis look just fine. 

[ITSec]

Oil filters inside the pan were the norm from the invention of oil filters until some bright guy got the idea of hanging one on the outside. Guzzi just thought about it a bit, considered that the early externals were vulnerable to road damage, and decided that the old design was good enough to continue with for the foreseeable future. Note that even the design used on CARC bikes is distinct from that used on most other motorcycles, with the spin-off still recessed into the pan for protection.

As far as the rubber blocks at the rear wheel, they are present on the vast majority of motorcycles (other than single-side swingarm designs). These blocks, often called 'cush blocks' are to cushion the on-off pressures of the drive system to the wheel. Without them, the strain on the belt, chain, or shaft would be sharper and more frequent, and the comfort of the ride reduced. In models where this need is meant elsewhere in the drive train, the cush blocks aren't present - but it just means the shock is being handled somewhere else. My V-Strom had them - and it had chain drive, an engine set the other way, and no Italians involved in its design at all!

BTW, dealing with the cush blocks is fairly simple once you know the trick. Before re-mounting the wheel, use a small amount of vaseline or even a water-soluble gel to 'tack' them in place so you don't have to fight with them while you put the wheel into place.

As far as the filter in the sump being a dinosaur? Well, it rather is - but then, birds are dinosaurs too, and rather charming ones we'd rather not do without. 

[Arizona Wayne]

I admit changing a rear rim/tire on a small block vs. a big block Guzzi is harder from the time my `04 750 Breva was made.  And expecting both brand bikes to be the same in this area, it's harder to do on a small block than a prior big block, but being a slow learner I attempted it like I had always done it on my big blocks.  I got it done but it was more of a PIA.  Then I found out those newer Guzzi owners than me approached it a different sequential way and didn't get so frustrated because they hadn't accepted the old way as the only way, I tried their sequential way and found out it's easier overall.   Live and learn.  Teach an old dog a new method.  I use GP grease to keep the rubber cushions in place either way, but it's still easier to do the new way.  To counter having to do this methodology more often than really needed I put on a  taller rear tire that lasts longer. 

If you think changing a rear tire on a 750 Guzzi is hard, don't even attempt the same thing on an Italian maxi-scooter or you will REALLY get frustrated.     

[Tom H]

If you think changing a rear tire on a 750 Guzzi is hard, don't even attempt the same thing on an Italian maxi-scooter or you will REALLY get frustrated.     

There was a scooter on the lift at my tire shop. It looked like they had half the bike apart to change the tire.

On the oil filter thing. The filter inside the pan is a safe place to put it. Or in a recess in the pan is good as well to keep it from damage. HD stuck the DG filter in a safe place on my HD dyna, but no matter how you remove it, there is oil all over the engine. Yes I have popped a hole in the filter to let the oil drain via a bit of foil and plenty of rags.

Tom

[steamdriven NZ]

But my lastest question has to do with the little rubber spacers that occupy the rear tire  hub of the 750 Breva, this just adds additional stress when trying to reinstall  a new tire,  if you haven't seen this set up its worth looking at,it's a head scratcher on why they had to do it when it's so much simpler on the California  model s.

What I do:

Fit wheel into the area beside final drive box. Lift wheel up and slide axle through. This supports the wheel weight for the next step. Slide wheel on axle up to the cush drive rubbers. Apply a bit of side force while pushing the rubbers, one at a time, either side of the tang on the drive box. Rotate wheel with side load kept applied to do the next set, the next set and so on. the last set done will see the wheel slide all the way in. takes as long to do as it will to read this out loud.

I think it's a good design, simple, clean, effective.
Ensure any grease you apply is for rubber, as those greases not intended for rubber will cause deterioration over time. I've never applied grease to mine and they're original 150,000 km blocks i think. Can't remember replacing them.
Kev. 

[sib]

It seems to me that the oil filter on the recent V7's IS internal.  The difference is that you don't have to drop the oil pan to get to it, just remove the access cover.

[BigDave in PA]

I you look at your owners manual, I think you'll find the recommended change interval for the oil filter is NOT at every oil change.

So, if you only change it every second or third oil change, is the oil filter in the pan really that big a deal ???

Not for me. 105,000 miles on my 2001 EV and I'm not interested in changing to external.

[blackcat]

Let's compare the ability to check the valves yourself or even a mechanic in about 15 minutes, compared to the hassle of changing the oil filter. I'll take the pan hassle as opposed to a $800? service call on a more sophisticated bike.

[Kev m]

Note that even the design used on CARC bikes is distinct from that used on most other motorcycles, with the spin-off still recessed into the pan for protection.

Maybe they got that idea from the BMW Oilheads.

On the oil filter thing. The filter inside the pan is a safe place to put it. Or in a recess in the pan is good as well to keep it from damage. HD stuck the DG filter in a safe place on my HD dyna, but no matter how you remove it, there is oil all over the engine. Yes I have popped a hole in the filter to let the oil drain via a bit of foil and plenty of rags.

Tom

For years I used cardboard and rags, but I finally bought a plastic oil filter drain funnel made for Harleys and I don't get A DROP on the motor.

[guzzisteve]

Some riders should not ride Italian bikes, if it's too much, ride something else.

[pete roper]

Some riders should not ride Italian bikes, if it's too much, ride something else.

Some riders should get a bus pass.

[cruzziguzzi]

I think that the way to look at the filter issue is that the basic architecture for the original V-Twin is not too far removed from the time when there were no filters whatsoever but rather, filtration was often laid off on sludge traps and the odd "screen" and oil changes were suggested at ridiculously low mileages.

Probably - me not having the opportunity to be contemporary to the events - the filter, regardless of where it was placed, was quite a step up in long term ownership practicality. It just took forever-and-a-day to alter the concept to accessibility without pan removal.

Too, of course, for most of us - the real issue of it being in the pan is not the time or hassle but the possibility of cross threading pan bolts when in a hurry.

Today's oil and filters make a mockery of the original change schedules as well.



Todd.

[Arizona Wayne]

On many 4 stroke motors before they had oil filters they had a screen and you changed the dino oil every 1,500 miles instead.  How long those motors lasted I don't know.  My 650 Yamaha twins were like that.

[normzone]

You can gain valuable insight into all tools, devices, and the world by working in the manufacturing business and quality assurance. Once you see all the errors and human foibles involved in something so simple as getting a fastener from customer fantasy to billable delivery, your threshold for head scratching will be significantly rearranged.

I've seen drawings for parts that if you met all the dimensions called out then NOTHING would be left in existence. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.   

[ejs]

I you look at your owners manual, I think you'll find the recommended change interval for the oil filter is NOT at every oil change.

So, if you only change it every second or third oil change, is the oil filter in the pan really that big a deal ???

The workshop manual for California EV states that oil and filter change every 6000 miles.
That is what I do...(semisynt 10-40)
 

[kfz]

The next person complaining about how long it takes to service a Guzzi needs to come round and help me service my other 2 bikes, Ducati, ever tried measuring zero and shim it with the most ludicrously difficult and expensive shims (not to mention the crazy belt drive nonsense) , or maybe the FZ750 20 valve  DOHC under bucket shims, thats always good for a laugh.

A guzzi vales and filter takes an hour at most.  Not 3 days.

Kev

[malik]

Yes, it definitely could be worse. To check the top spark plug on a V-Strom, I believe the tank has to come off, as does the insulating plate underneath. And how the inline fours with everything enshrounded in fairings manage spark plugs, I shudder to think.

Yes the cush rubbers can be a PITA. My current solution is to raise the bike 2" on a couple of 2x4's under the centrestand. This not only provides enough clearance to remove & replace the wheel past the mudguard, but also seems to provide plenty of room to enable the hub with it's cush rubbers to be aligned with the tangs & slip on cleanly. One 2x4 under the RHS also works well - the rubbers tend not to fall out so easily. The last time I did it (just a few days ago) only a couple of rubbers fell out once. It may not be an elegant design, but it is a simple one & seems to work. This time, only one of the cush rubbers was broken. The maximum I've ever had was 3 broken ones.

For the 14 or so bolts on the 1100's sump (& the 10 on the Enfield's primary case) the whine of an electric screwdriver is a most satisfying sound.

[Kiwi Dave]

The workshop manual for California EV states that oil and filter change every 6000 miles.
That is what I do...(semisynt 10-40)
 

That same manual states the oil should be Agip 4t super racing sae 20w50 which is a Full Synthetic oil.

For the hydro motors, the spec was changed to be 5w40 Full Synthetic.

[elvisboy77]

Some riders should not ride Italian bikes, if it's too much, ride something else.

Exactly.  Buy a Harley take it to the shop. 

[Kev m]

Exactly.  Buy a Harley take it to the shop.

Why, the oil filter is right there in the open and the lifters are hydraulic.... Easy peasy. [emoji48]

[Chuck in Indiana]

Why, the oil filter is right there in the open and the lifters are hydraulic.... Easy peasy. [emoji48]

Because the "typical" Harley rider couldn't unscrew an oil filter if they could identify it. At least that's been my observation. "I had to wait 3 weeks to get my oil changed..should have trailered it to the dealer last winter." <shrug> "Seriously?"
 

[Kev m]

Because the "typical" Harley rider couldn't unscrew an oil filter if they could identify it. At least that's been my observation. "I had to wait 3 weeks to get my oil changed..should have trailered it to the dealer last winter." <shrug> "Seriously?"
 

So what? I mean really.

What you just described is the typical "rider" not just Harleys, but bikes. There are plenty of Guzzi, BMW, Ducati, JAPanInc. etc. riders who don't work on their own bikes, just like most people who own cars don't either.

What does it matter?

Not everyone is a hobbyist who wants to spend hours in their garage.

Hell even I don't want to spend any more time in the garage than necessary anymore. I'd rather spend that time riding or with my family.

[Psychopasta]

To the OP's point however, I think whoever designed the lego switchgear of the 70s and 80s deserved to be shot. Or at least paraded naked through the streets of Mandello del Lario followed by greasy bikers ringing bells and shouting "Shame! SHAME!"

- Pasta

[drdwb]

Thank you Steam driven and others who posted the tricks to rear tire change, This was my first tire change on the Breva, I should have read the book before I took it apart, but the design on our California's and my Norge was so simple it never occurred to me they would change such a simple set up.

Don't get me wrong I do love ridding and owing Guzzi's other wise We wouldn't have four of them. The 2 California's are like working on my old 1940's 2 N Ford tractor, The Norge and Breva the learning curve is steeper and requires more thinking and less beer until the job is complete.

Only other bikes I work on for comparison are our Yamahas which being late 70' early 80's are also pretty straight forward.
My point in the post was not necessarily to complain but more me asking about simplicity of wrenching, I'm thinking about trying fix a Breva rear tire blow out while on the road far from my shop and bike lift, I know I'd get it done, but I would not be a happy camper.