Can ethanol free gas increase gas milage this much?

[Two Checks]

Wonder how they produce 93 octane ethanol-free gas? How do they boost octane (legally, of course) without the ethanol? MTBE and MMT are both banned . . .

Those chemicals are oxygenators. Ethanol is also used as an oxygenator, not as an octane booster. The bonus is alongg with adding oxygen to the mix it does slow the burn so octane is given a slight boost. Less of the octane improvers need to be added.
How do they make E0 93 octane? By adding more of the chemicals that are used to make any octane gasoline.
Gasoline without octane inmprovers are fairly low as far as anti knock properties go. These chemicals are added until they get the desired octane rating.

[Rough Edge racing]

Wonder how they produce 93 octane ethanol-free gas? How do they boost octane (legally, of course) without the ethanol? MTBE and MMT are both banned . . .

Those chemicals are oxygenators. Ethanol is also used as an oxygenator, not as an octane booster. The bonus is alongg with adding oxygen to the mix it does slow the burn so octane is given a slight boost. Less of the octane improvers need to be added.
How do they make E0 93 octane? By adding more of the chemicals that are used to make any octane gasoline.
Gasoline without octane inmprovers are fairly low as far as anti knock properties go. These chemicals are added until they get the desired octane rating.

 It's a misconception to think that slower burning fuels have a higher octane  or that higher octane fuels burn slower... It can be true with pump gas in some cases and with alcohol in general....But resistance to detonation has to do with preventing the end gases from spontaneous igniting before the main charge has burned.In fact the faster the burn, the less time there for detonation to occur..... Tetraethyl lead used to be the additive...I have no idea what's used know....

[zebraranger]

Does ethanol free gas make that much of a difference in increased mpg?

My 16 Griso gets better mileage and definitely runs much better on Ethanol free fuel. So much so that I now keep 20 gallons in the garage in one of those portable fuel caddy's. 

[TimmyTheHog]

I don't know about the exact MPG difference I get between the 91(10% ethanol) and 94(ethanol free). I am up in Canada

But initially when I was riding with 91, I get about 330~340KM Per tank (roughly 20L used)

Once I started using 94, I can push up to almost 370KM with roughly the same 20L used.

Granted, this was measured when I was still breaking in my V7...currently has 4050 KM on the clock only.

[Ncdan]

I have a station close to my house which I use when I'm near home so when I leave on a trip I always start out with a tank of pure gasoline without the corn. That being said, I have not noted a sufficient difference in fuel mileage the second third or fourth tank. My findings is there is not enough difference for me to run out of gas attempting find the pure stuff. That being said I detest the fact that it cost twice as much to produce a gallon of fuel with the corn juice oppose to producing gasoline without the syrup.

[GearheadGrrrl]

No measurable difference here too between E0 and E10. The science tells us that ethanol has 70% of the energy of gasoline by volume, thus E10 should have 97% of the energy of E0. In the Yamaha Super Tenere with sidecar I ride the most, that's a difference of 1 MPG... Too small a difference to measure with our crude methods.

[Triple Jim]

Ive never gotten over 40mph on the B11 ever...

Maybe a spark plug wire fell off.     

[bad Chad]

I usually get between 38-43 mpg on my B11.  Around town closer to 38.

[Two Checks]

The resistance to detonation (explosion) is determined by the octane rating.
You dont want the fuel to detonate, you want it to burn. A slower burning fuel has a higher resistace to detonate. Therefore it can be compressed more extracting more power.
You want the burn to be quick yet controlled. If it explodes you get that nasty knock, or pinging (pinking) sound.

A detonation expert in explosives doesnt burn the charges he detonates-explodes them.

[kirb]

Ethanol contains about one-third less energy than gasoline.
So, vehicles will typically go 3% to 4% fewer miles per gallon on E10 and 4% to 5% fewer on E15 than on 100% gasoline.

Try filling the tank up the same way, same level each time and calculate MPG rather than trust the dash calculation.

[Lannis]

Ethanol contains about one-third less energy than gasoline.
So, vehicles will typically go 3% to 4% fewer miles per gallon on E10 and 4% to 5% fewer on E15 than on 100% gasoline.

Try filling the tank up the same way, same level each time and calculate MPG rather than trust the dash calculation.

Always do it that way, never trust the dash meter.

I suspect that regardless of how much energy the organic chemistry calculation says is available in ethanol, that it may not actually burn that way in your motor, which was designed to burn gasoline unless it's a very late model.    My results aren't in the statistical error band ... they translate into 20 extra miles per tank in the Stelvio .....

Lannis

[Caffeineo]

The one time I kept track of miles and gas to fill on my 1200 sport it got in the low 40's. That was on a day ride doing 50 - 70 most of the time. I am easy on the right wrist as it goes plenty fast for me without hitting redline. I always use ethanol free just because it is available and not that expensive. I don't worry about MPG as I always get about 200 miles with that big tank.

[Rough Edge racing]

The resistance to detonation (explosion) is determined by the octane rating.
You dont want the fuel to detonate, you want it to burn. A slower burning fuel has a higher resistace to detonate. Therefore it can be compressed more extracting more power.
You want the burn to be quick yet controlled. If it explodes you get that nasty knock, or pinging (pinking) sound.

A detonation expert in explosives doesnt burn the charges he detonates-explodes them.

 I believe we had this discussion in the recent past....? The racing fuel I use is 108 octane and according to VP fuel, it burns faster than pump gas...faster burn means less time for detonation to occur...As I said previously, detonation you hear as "pinging" is the uncontrolled detonation of end gases, not the main charge...There's excellent explanations of this stuff on Sunoco and other oil company websites.

[Farmer Dan]

My '72 Eldorado gets mid 40's burning E10 87octane at 75mph on the highway.

[kirb]

I suspect that regardless of how much energy the organic chemistry calculation says is available in ethanol, that it may not actually burn that way in your motor, which was designed to burn gasoline unless it's a very late model.    My results aren't in the statistical error band ... they translate into 20 extra miles per tank in the Stelvio .....

There could be other things at work- like the O2 sensor being fooled that the mixture is too lean and adding more with Ethanol which would lower your MPG. The properties of Ethanol under higher pressure fuel injection could also be at play.

A lot of variables that I am sure have not been investigated in crude injections systems (like bikes).   

[Rough Edge racing]

There could be other things at work- like the O2 sensor being fooled that the mixture is too lean and adding more with Ethanol which would lower your MPG. The properties of Ethanol under higher pressure fuel injection could also be at play.

A lot of variables that I am sure have not been investigated in crude injections systems (like bikes).

  Yes...But electronic engine management on cars are more complex than bikes from what I understand... The car system is able to adjust fuel trims over a fairly wide range to maintain a certain A/F ratios....Bikes without three way catalytic convertors can run leaner mixtures than cars and may lack the adaptability of auto systems... And the stories here of poor factory fuel mapping on some Guzzi's might be a indication of less sophisticated systems ????

[redhawk47]

I have a station three miles from my house that sells E0 premium (that's 91 octane in Colorado). I record mileage and gallons. Typical fill-up is 3.5 to 4 gallons; that's about two-thirds of a tank on my V7II. When traveling I use tier one premium.

My fuel mileage ranges from 48 to 54, with some outliers. But I did not find any patterns; my riding varies from local to long distance, with full camping gear to almost naked, flat lands to mountains.

However, driving in the mountains gives better fuel mileage than on the flats, regardless of vehicle - even my truck. Climbing a hill, mileage drops off. Going down hill, fuel consumption is less, so much less than average fuel mileage is better. This has been confirmed when driving vehicles with current fuel consumption readouts.

I use E0 in all of my motorcycles whenever possible. I had problems with the fuel injectors on my BMW F800GS plugging up - attributed to the crud that forms when the ethanol gets together with water - which is inevitable. StarTron kept them clean after replacing the first set.

I support American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) in their efforts against E15.
I agree with Smarter Fuel Future and their efforts to eliminate the ethanol mandate.

[Two Checks]

Hmm...detonation... explosion. A fast burn is good but you dont want an explosion. You want a controlled BURN.
A friend just had a 383 put in his 88 Silverado.
The thing hammered at idle and sounded like a bunch of hammers hitting the windshield at wfo.
I told him either back off the timing or run race gas. He assured me the mechanic said it was fine.
Two days later 3 pistons shat the bed due to detonation.
He was running 38� of timing.
New engine and less timing. Its fine.
We run either straight ethanol or P66 116 race gas in the race cars. As rich as you need to run the ethanol carb you get close to hydrolock. It sure washes the cylinders with fuel. And we run almost 15:1 compression.
But the octane controls the burn. It keeps the fuel rrom exploding. Burn is the key word.

[GearheadGrrrl]

I've got the street sister (F800S) of your F800GS. 75k miles on mostly E20 and E30, injectors have never been touched...

I have a station three miles from my house that sells E0 premium (that's 91 octane in Colorado). I record mileage and gallons. Typical fill-up is 3.5 to 4 gallons; that's about two-thirds of a tank on my V7II. When traveling I use tier one premium.

My fuel mileage ranges from 48 to 54, with some outliers. But I did not find any patterns; my riding varies from local to long distance, with full camping gear to almost naked, flat lands to mountains.

However, driving in the mountains gives better fuel mileage than on the flats, regardless of vehicle - even my truck. Climbing a hill, mileage drops off. Going down hill, fuel consumption is less, so much less than average fuel mileage is better. This has been confirmed when driving vehicles with current fuel consumption readouts.

I use E0 in all of my motorcycles whenever possible. I had problems with the fuel injectors on my BMW F800GS plugging up - attributed to the crud that forms when the ethanol gets together with water - which is inevitable. StarTron kept them clean after replacing the first set.

I support American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) in their efforts against E15.
I agree with Smarter Fuel Future and their efforts to eliminate the ethanol mandate.

[Lannis]

However, driving in the mountains gives better fuel mileage than on the flats, regardless of vehicle - even my truck. Climbing a hill, mileage drops off. Going down hill, fuel consumption is less, so much less than average fuel mileage is better. This has been confirmed when driving vehicles with current fuel consumption readouts.

Road bicycle time trialers can verify that.   The best time-trial times come on slightly rolling roads, not flat ones ....

Lannis

[Rough Edge racing]

Hmm...detonation...explosion. A fast burn is good but you dont want an explosion. You want a controlled BURN.
A friend just had a 383 put in his 88 Silverado.
The thing hammered at idle and sounded like a bunch of hammers hitting the windshield at wfo.
I told him either back off the timing or run race gas. He assured me the mechanic said it was fine.
Two days later 3 pistons shat the bed due to detonation.
He was running 38� of timing.
New engine and less timing. Its fine.
We run either straight ethanol or P66 116 race gas in the race cars. As rich as you need to run the ethanol carb you get close to hydrolock. It sure washes the cylinders with fuel. And we run almost 15:1 compression.
But the octane controls the burn. It keeps the fuel rrom exploding. Burn is the key word.

 Hmm...and engine pinging or detonating at idle? OK...
 
  You find these links interesting...

   http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html
   http://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/beyond-octane
   Or this from a fuel chemist...

A noteworthy feature of TEL is the weakness of its four C�Pb bonds. At the temperatures found in internal combustion engines, (CH3CH2)4Pb decomposes completely into lead and lead oxides as well as combustible, short-lived ethyl radicals. Lead and lead oxide scavenge radical intermediates in combustion reactions. Engine knock is caused by a cool flame, an oscillating low-temperature combustion reaction that occurs before the proper, hot ignition. Lead quenches the pyrolysed radicals and thus kills the radical chain reaction that would sustain a cool flame, preventing it from disturbing the smooth ignition of the hot flame front. Lead itself is the reactive antiknock agent, and TEL serves as a gasoline-soluble lead carrier.[9] When (CH3CH2)4Pb burns, it produces not only carbon dioxide and water, but also lead:

  The quote points out that the cause of detonation is a secondary flame front that disturbs the smooth burning primary flame front...TEL  (tetraethyl lead )in this case quenches the secondary flame front....
     

[wymple]

I can run either with or without ethanol in my area. If there's a noticeable difference I ain't seen it. And I'm not clogging up anything. We kept track with the computer in the Grand Marquis and the difference was less than 1 mpg, and non ethanol is a lot more money.

[Idontwantapickle]

We'll not see the government support the removal of ethanol from gasoline in spite of the obvious negative effects on the consumer and the environment. The influence of the industries involved are very strong not to mention that the increased consumption it causes is, in effect, a tax increase on gas.
I cannot afford not to buy e10 for my cars but my Norge won't tolerate ethanol. It damages the tank. I also buy E0 for my other bikes and small engines.

[willowstreetguzziguy]

The price for E0 here is $4.38 vs $2.78 for premium E10.  $9.60 MORE to fill my 6 gallon tank with E0. WOW!

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

Maybe a spark plug wire fell off.     

I guess just a little drawback to living among tight twisty steep moto roads! 

[ozziguzzi]

The price for E0 here is $4.38 vs $2.78 for premium E10.  $9.60 MORE to fill my 6 gallon tank with E0. WOW!

Staggering price difference and will induce people to use E10.

Campaign to get people to use E10 was almost a total failure in Australia and most service stations sell an E free 91.
Difference in price, where it is sold, is only 2 or 3 cents per litre which does not compensate for poorer mileage.

Factoid
E0 is 47,300 kjs per Kg
Ethanol is 29,670 kjs per kg  (62.72% of E0)

so E10 is 45,437Kjs which is 96.06% of E0.

just sayin

[blackcat]

Based on my own experience with performance, cost, the minimal difference in fuel mileage and the fact that all of my bikes get anywhere from the high 30's to low 50's mileage using whatever gas is available, I have come to this conclusion regarding these types of petrol: "shrug" 

[Rough Edge racing]

 The VP leaded 108 octane gas I use in the race bikes costs about 80 bucks for a five gallon can...it has a wonderful aroma..The order of the exhaust is sweet....Once opened it has a limited lifespan for use  in competition engines. So I pour what's left into the fuel tank of my street bike...96 Ducati 900M....The engine runs exactly the same, fuel mileage is the same but the inside of the exhaust outlet is a white color from the lead (TEL) ...
  The Stochiometric ratio(air fuel mixture that is complete combustion) for the VP C12 race fuel is 14.87, non ethanol pump gas is 14.6 and E10 is 14.1.... So in a late model car/truck engine management that will adjust for the best mixture of the fuel being used, the E10 will gives a bit less fuel mileage.... But most bikes with injection( and cars older than mid 90's) and all carburetor bikes do not automatically adjust the fuel mixture...So in theory the older vehicles may not suffer a fuel mileage difference....reali ty might different of course because of the rider/drive influence..

[Kev m]

The VP leaded 108 octane gas I use in the race bikes costs about 80 bucks for a five gallon can...it has a wonderful aroma..The order of the exhaust is sweet....Once opened it has a limited lifespan for use  in competition engines. So I pour what's left into the fuel tank of my street bike...96 Ducati 900M....The engine runs exactly the same, fuel mileage is the same but the inside of the exhaust outlet is a white color from the lead (TEL) ...
  The Stochiometric ratio(air fuel mixture that is complete combustion) for the VP C12 race fuel is 14.87, non ethanol pump gas is 14.6 and E10 is 14.1.... So in a late model car/truck engine management that will adjust for the best mixture of the fuel being used, the E10 will gives a bit less fuel mileage.... But most bikes with injection( and cars older than mid 90's) and all carburetor bikes do not automatically adjust the fuel mixture...So in theory the older vehicles may not suffer a fuel mileage difference....reali ty might different of course because of the rider/drive influence..

Except you can't get around the physics.

If E10 has less energy per gallon you need to use more to do the same work as a gallon of E0 (assuming no efficiency of combustion is increased with the E10 or wasted energy with the E0).

So the adjustment would likely come at the throttle which would necessarily be opened more.

[Lannis]

We'll not see the government support the removal of ethanol from gasoline in spite of the obvious negative effects on the consumer and the environment. The influence of the industries involved are very strong not to mention that the increased consumption it causes is, in effect, a tax increase on gas.
I cannot afford not to buy e10 for my cars but my Norge won't tolerate ethanol. It damages the tank. I also buy E0 for my other bikes and small engines.

Well, quite.   No use buying it for the newer cars, they're designed for it.   But for the $.80/gallon difference, it's well worth (for me) burning it in the older bikes, the steel-tanked bikes, and the sometimes-idle farm and lawn equipment.    All has very little to do with the gas mileage, everything to do with the effect it has on engine internals and tank surfaces that weren't designed for it.

Lannis