Author Topic: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.  (Read 4278 times)

Offline bigbikerrick

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Hello Folks, this is on my 73 eldo with vhb 29s,  I must be getting more forgetful than usual    :grin:...this is the second time it has happened, I left it overnight, came into the garage today, and the strong smell of gas hit me. the  petcock was on, and the left carb flooded, a tiny amount of gas dripped out of the corner of the stock air filter box, I knew it had filled the cylinder, because it happened before about 6 months ago, so I took out the plug, and cranked it, gas came shooting out of the cylinder. last time it happened , i replaced the float valve on the carb, and looked at the float, there was no gas inside it, everything looked normal, and the bike runs great. I drained the oil, and replaced it with new.  I thought this issue was solved after  the last time it happened.What else can I check to prevent this in the future? I have the original dark floats, and the needle valves with the orange tips from MG cycle.
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Offline swooshdave

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2017, 02:21:46 PM »
A hydrolock would have occurred if you had tried to start the engine without draining the gas.
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Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2017, 02:44:25 PM »
Just remember to turn the petcocks off? Even if you have to post a sign where you park to remind you.  :wink:
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Offline RinkRat II

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2017, 02:52:37 PM »


 Yeah, getting older ain't fer sissies, and forgettin' stuff is part of it unfortunately.  Have a cool sticker made that says "PETCOCK" and put it someplace you see it all the time like inside the windshield. My $.02


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Offline yogidozer

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2017, 03:11:57 PM »
I'd remove the floats to see if they were leaking. petcock left open or not, the carbs should not flood

Offline acogoff

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2017, 03:26:46 PM »
    I have nothing of use to add. And Yes, just try and remember to turn the thing off as others have said. If it is running good I do not think any new parts will change a thing, with this gasoline of variable and questionable quality we have. What has helped me, I "try"and remember to turn off the petcock at the same point half way up my 1/2 mile long driveway. That way it sits idle with very little in the float bowl that tends to seep and make the usual dellorto mess.
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Online Dukedesmo

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2017, 03:47:43 PM »
Maybe a little OTT but I have an electric fuel shutoff valve on my Monster.


This is because I fitted a fuel-injected model tank to it and so pump a 'loop' of fuel from the tank, back to the tank with a take-off point for the FCR carbs (direct feed pressure would overload the carbs).


However when fuel pump is stopped the tank can still gravity feed the carbs from the return line and so could, if a float valve stuck, empty the fuel through the carbs (FCRs are quite prone to this) and given that the horizontal cylinder carb is a downdraft it would definitely fill the cylinder/sump.


So I fitted a valve like this; http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/benzin-absperrventil-Solenoid-Valve-12V-Tomasetto-/292167572883?hash=item44068b5d93:g:gUcAAOSwB09YOZN~ which is wired in with the fuel pump and fitted into the take-off for the carbs so that fuel can only flow to the carbs when ignition is on and pump running.


For a 2 tap tank you'd need to modify the fuel lines (or fit 2 valves) but it would be possible - that way you don't need to remember.


It also has a manual override incase of failure so that I don't get stranded by a faulty pump.


As an aside, I left my LM2 fuel taps open and the RH carb flooded but all the fuel appeared to exit from the intake stack and soak the engine/garage floor, I couldn't find any trace in the oil.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 03:52:18 PM by Dukedesmo »
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Offline yogidozer

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2017, 04:21:23 PM »
are you using a fuel filter? maybe a piece of something got under the needle valve.

Offline Two Checks

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2017, 05:18:43 PM »
Replace needles/seats. Problem solved.
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Offline Scott DeRoss

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2017, 05:38:37 PM »
Replace needles/seats. Problem solved.

Was it on the side stand? I would do what Two Checks said and possibly adjust the float.

I really hate (if you use it) Ethanol fuels, seems to eat things like the rubber needle tip quick.
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Offline bigbikerrick

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2017, 12:57:40 AM »
Thanks folks for the suggestions, and advice. I thought a vacuum operated shutoff valve, like some bikes have ( automatic petcock) would be nice, but the plumbing would probably be a nightmare with the way the eldo  fuel hoses run with the X. to answer the questions,
I do have fuel filters , two of those clear plastic tapered "visu filters", and they are clean, my tank is very clean and rust free.
Yes my bike was on the sidestand when it happened.
Also I did replace the float needle  when it did the same thing about 6 months ago.
I also am of the opinion, that even if the petcocks are left on, it still should not flood this way. I am going to check my floats again tomorrow, try the hot water test to look for bubbles, and look  closely at the  shutoff / float valve tip again.
Rick.
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Offline wirespokes

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2017, 01:10:50 AM »
I'm mostly familiar with the bmw airheads because that's where I've been since 1990. They have the same issue. You're expecting these things to do the impossible. Some will manage to not seep past the float valve, but don't bet on it. It's one thing to turn the petcock on in the morning, run some errands, park, ride some more in the afternoon and then turn off the petcocks after parking in the evening. That should be fine. But leaving it all night, or days on end, with them open is asking for trouble.

To understand the problem consider this: how much force do you think the float can exert on the float valve? Not very much!

All it takes is a teensy weensy bit of crud lodged on the seat and it'll seep. Or it might seep anyway.

Another thing to consider when leaving the petcocks open: The float bowls are open to atmosphere. That means the gas will evaporate out. The level goes down, the needle valve lets more gas in so more can evaporate...

Offline Two Checks

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2017, 06:42:03 AM »
You replaced the needles but not the seats. You need to change both. The seats wear also.
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Offline Groover

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2017, 07:30:13 AM »
In the meantime, I'd put the front wheel on a wedge or something so if it does flood, the fuel will hopefully go out the carb's filter side instead of towards the head, that is if there is enough space between the back tire and the floor to make the bike tilt enough if/when using the center stand.
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Offline leolad

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 09:05:09 AM »
My PHF 30s were doing the same. I replaced the floats and the pins holding them. The float pins were worn and holding the floats stuck open.

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2017, 09:20:54 AM »
You replaced the needles but not the seats. You need to change both. The seats wear also.

On the most common VHB carburetors as used on Ambassadors, Eldorados, etc. the seats aren't replaceable, but are part of the carb casting. Some very late VHBs had replaceable seats, but they're pretty rare.

What you can do though, is put a bit of valve grinding compound on a Q-Tip, insert it into the seat and spin it to clean the seat a bit.
Charlie
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2017, 09:53:58 AM »
What Charlie says. I have a lawnmower carb that I have to remember to run dry because of that. Sometimes it won't leak, sometimes it will. What a PITA.
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Offline Groover

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2017, 10:07:52 AM »
I used a variation of one of these in a moped that I was having a hard time stopping the float valve from leaking, no matter how much I tried. These come in different sizes, but I bet it will solve this problem if nothing else works. It's basically a spring loaded float needle that is designed I believe to fix quirky cases.

Here are a few, but not sure of the size you need, so you may need to search a little more.

https://www.dellorto.co.uk/shop/dellorto-motorcycle-carburettors-parts/carburettor-parts/jets-needles-floats-calibrated-parts/needle-valve-sprung-loaded-soft-spring/

https://www.dellorto.co.uk/shop/dellorto-motorcycle-carburettors-parts/carburettor-parts/phbh-parts/needle-valve-sprung-loaded-strong/

Hope that helps.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 10:08:16 AM by Groover »
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Offline bigbikerrick

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2017, 11:06:27 AM »
Thanks Folks, as usual, some great suggestions here. I have the eldo on the lift today, and I am going to dig into the carb and see what I find . I am going to try the valve grinding compound like Charlie suggests, on the seat.
Groover, those spring loaded needle valves look to be the right ticket! I am going to look into those to see if one of these will work. I notice they sell a strong spring as well as a soft spring version. Good stuff!
thanks guys, I will let you know what I find today.
Rick.
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Offline Two Checks

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2017, 02:12:12 PM »
Spring loaded needles....BTDT on aa C10 Concours. Seems the OEM needles were the fix ...with judicious polishing of the seats by a jeweler on the Kehin (Honda) carbs. The spring loaded K&Ls refused to seat.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 09:46:49 AM by Two Checks »
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Offline Yeahoo Whoyah

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2017, 04:05:09 PM »
Quote
Was it on the side stand?

Think penstock on a hydroelectric plant?  With the wicket gate open (petcock) and parked using the side stand there is higher force on the left side carburetor. Especially with more lean angle if using the longer police side stand.  Using the center stand would lessen the force, sharing it with the right carb. I suppose this could result in both carbs flooding.  Maybe not.  At the end of the day I always use the center stand and close the petcock.  So far, so good, at least for this problem.   
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Offline bigbikerrick

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2017, 05:14:28 PM »
Yeahoo W. that explanation makes perfect sense to me.

Two Checks Im sorry, can you please explain "with judicious pishingy ofr the seats by a jeweler "

I am thinking you mean "polishing"? I am going to try and carefully smooth out, or "lap" the seat like Charlie suggested.
Thanks
Rick.
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Offline Chesterfield

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2017, 10:10:40 PM »
Another reason why fuel injection is sometimes a better deal then we realize.

Online Tom H

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2017, 12:34:22 AM »
Since I have VHB 29's on two of my bikes, I've been waiting for a good answer.

I've had the same problem of flooding a carb. Even to the point of the flood overfilling the sump. Bike on side stand and pull the dipstick and oil/fuel comes pouring out.

But.... I have left a petcock on for months with out a problem (forgot the new petcocks were supposed to point the same way for off, ooopppsss).

To try to solve the flood, I have replaced the needle only to have it leak, or not, argh. On Benders site or somewhere, I read to use a drill bit with your fingers to smooth out the seat. Also, to use the OLD needle with some valve grinding compound to smooth the seat and then install a new needle.

I hope this helps a bit! I do wish the 29's had a replaceable seat!!!!!!!

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Online Huzo

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2017, 02:12:10 AM »

 Yeah, getting older ain't fer sissies, and forgettin' stuff is part of it unfortunately.  Have a cool sticker made that says "PETCOCK" and put it someplace you see it all the time like inside the windshield. My $.02


          PAUL B :boozing:
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2017, 06:24:40 AM »
Will the fuel leak past the rings and contaminate the oil ?

If you call a crankcase full of gas contaminated..
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Online Huzo

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2017, 07:06:44 AM »
Yep, a classic case of not reading the posts first. Sorry 'bout that chief !!!

Offline Sasquatch Jim

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2017, 07:41:47 AM »

 Yeah, getting older ain't fer sissies, and forgettin' stuff is part of it unfortunately.  Have a cool sticker made that says "PETCOCK" and put it someplace you see it all the time like inside the windshield. My $.02


          PAUL B :boozing:

Someone might not understand that it refers to the fuel system.
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Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2017, 08:39:25 AM »
On Benders site or somewhere, I read to use a drill bit with your fingers to smooth out the seat. Also, to use the OLD needle with some valve grinding compound to smooth the seat and then install a new needle.

I would not recommend using a drill bit, unless you want to buy new carburetors...
Charlie
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Offline bigbikerrick

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Re: Darn,!Forgot to turn off petcock, cylinder flooded/hydrolocked.
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2017, 12:32:45 PM »
Wow, Folks, More good info here! So, it seems the problem with the  VHB 29's  flooding is fairly common, and the consensus seems that its caused by wear/irregularities in the valve seat area of the carb. I am going to try the valve grinding compound on the tip of the old needle, or Q Tip. but as a long term solution, I want to try to hook up an external vacuum controlled shutoff valve . I think my son's RZ 350 Yamaha has one, and its separate from the petcock, the petcock does not have an OFF position , only on, reserve, and "prime" which bypasses the automatic shutoff valve, to let fuel flow, without engine vacuum. My 2000 GL 1500 goldwing is carburated, and also has a remote shutoff valve that is also vacuum controlled . Im pretty sure some other motorcycles have some sort of system like this that can be adapted. Thoughts?
Thanks, Rick.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 12:35:36 PM by bigbikerrick »
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