A Millennial’s Perspective

[Dilliw]

Concerning student debt, yes, this generation has had to use it the most. Student debt would have probably been a problem for the post WWII generation if it had not been for so many having the GI bill. But I also see too many students who are not realistic about school choices or career goals (little return income for money invested careers).
If a student is willing to use a community colleges and state colleges, live simply, work and basically take it all a bit seriously one can make it through with minimal if any debt. If you go into education or the medical field and are willing to work in need areas you can have all or part of your student debt paid off.
Many are not aware of training programs through unions either. For example locally the electrical union will take on a fresh out of high school student that shows potential and have them placed with local companies at $15.40 and hour (2014) and full benefit package their first year. Pay raises from their. The program takes four years which the student works FT and puts in about 900 hours of self study and about 30 classroom days over the four year period. Buy the end of four (age 22 for most) years the person is a journeyman rated electrician making around 90K with overtime. NO SCHOOLING COStS PERIOD!
GliderJohn

One of my millenials was accepted to the Newport News Apprentice School only because I made him consider it.  He decided to spend 6 years at a University getting an engineering degree and a lot of debt instead.  Time will tell if he was right or I was right.

[Rough Edge racing]

Concerning student debt, yes, this generation has had to use it the most. Student debt would have probably been a problem for the post WWII generation if it had not been for so many having the GI bill. But I also see too many students who are not realistic about school choices or career goals (little return income for money invested careers).
If a student is willing to use a community colleges and state colleges, live simply, work and basically take it all a bit seriously one can make it through with minimal if any debt. If you go into education or the medical field and are willing to work in need areas you can have all or part of your student debt paid off.
Many are not aware of training programs through unions either. For example locally the electrical union will take on a fresh out of high school student that shows potential and have them placed with local companies at $15.40 and hour (2014) and full benefit package their first year. Pay raises from their. The program takes four years which the student works FT and puts in about 900 hours of self study and about 30 classroom days over the four year period. Buy the end of four (age 22 for most) years the person is a journeyman rated electrician making around 90K with overtime. NO SCHOOLING COStS PERIOD!
GliderJohn

  I was a member of the IBEW as a construction electrician and retired from the trade ....If you  mean the building trades it's not exactly as you say...Factory unions can be like that...
 But the skilled trades are overlooked....

[Lannis]

In my opinion, the point is independence of body and soul...And based on what I have  seen in other similar situations.... But it's his life not mine...

Yep, family means different things to different people.   Sometimes independence and physical separation makes for a better family relationship; sometimes it's the other way around ...

Lannis

[Kev m]

Concerning student debt, yes, this generation has had to use it the most. Student debt would have probably been a problem for the post WWII generation if it had not been for so many having the GI bill. But I also see too many students who are not realistic about school choices or career goals (little return income for money invested careers).
If a student is willing to use a community colleges and state colleges, live simply, work and basically take it all a bit seriously one can make it through with minimal if any debt. If you go into education or the medical field and are willing to work in need areas you can have all or part of your student debt paid off.

You make some good points, but it's not all black and white.

I mean there's a reason areas are under-served and what you save on student loan forgiveness you might lose on personal income and building your own savings/retirement. For instance a typical physician comes out of school and training (residency and fellowship) a full decade behind other professionals with regards to earning income and putting away money for retirement. And the under-served positions typically offer much less competitive salaries and benefits. So they may lose some debt, but they remain woefully behind in other areas. I have to imagine it's similar for teachers.

I also have to wonder about how one defines realistic career choices, and how to assign value to things that are less obvious than an accountant, physician, or teacher?

But let's look at tuition costs immediately post WWII vs. today.

Looks like U Penn 1945-49 tuition and room/board etc. was around $1k/year:

http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/tuition/1940.html

According to this calculator $1000 in 1945 = $13,703 today.

http://www.in2013dollars.com/1945-dollars-in-2018?amount=1000


A typical undergrad student at UPenn in 2018 should expect to pay $60,000-$72,000/YEAR depending on whether they live on or off campus, and/or at home.

and judging from a number of recent college grads and college students in our family (including my eldest who is currently in a PA state college studying to become a teacher) one can generally expect to spend $20k (state schools) to $60k (private schools) and in between.

So even state schools today are more expensive then Ivy league right after WWII.

There's no doubt it's more expensive than ever.

[Kev m]

Yep, family means different things to different people.   Sometimes independence and physical separation makes for a better family relationship; sometimes it's the other way around ...

Lannis

There's also a huge difference between a freeloading/soul-sucking basement dweller and a person who contributes and supports his/herself while remaining close to/involved with, or even continuing to live with their family.

[Lannis]

There's also a huge difference between a freeloading/soul-sucking basement dweller and a person who contributes and supports his/herself while remaining close to/involved with, or even continuing to live with their family.

Well, quite.

[JeffOlson]

Granted, scrappy, driven, hard-working people will always find a way to thrive. However, the US economy has changed dramatically in the past several decades. Manufacturing jobs have gone elsewhere, and the composition of the labor force is markedly different.

Yes, there is work available, but much of it is part-time minimum-wage work, not full-time jobs with good pay. Further, on average, real, inflation-adjusted wages have fallen, not risen.

This is not meant to be political. It is simply reality. Things are indeed different now.

[canuck750]

A boy that went to school with my sons was always catching a hard time because when it came to "Career Days" and the high-school show-and-tell about "What I Want To Do", he always said "I want to be the janitor at the school".   People would laugh, of course, and he didn't have the gift of repartee (I have no idea of his IQ but he didn't talk much), but it didn't seem to bother him.

So when he got out of high school, he went straight to work as a janitor at the schools.   When he was old enough for his CDL, he also started driving school buses.    After about 4 years they made him the janitor supervisor for the school system.

With the contacts he made as a janitor, he started a one-truck business contracting to pick up people's home trash twice a month for $25 a month per house.   Started with a flat bed stake truck, then bought a used municipal compactor truck, then another ... then started getting customers in surrounding counties.

He's 32 years old now, still lives at home, not married, loves his work, and at the moment probably has more money than he'll have any way to spend in his whole life.

Just a quiet country boy, no money in the family (well, till now), and doesn't care about status or cool ... just likes being able to make it on his own.    We need more like him ....

Lannis

Great storey!

I put myself through school as a janitor in the 70's and early 80's, worked evenings from 5:30 to 11:30 - 3 ~ 4 nights a week, it was a great job, paid well and there was real satisfaction seeing the department store I worked for shining at the end of the shift. The kids who worked in the record or sporting goods department looked down on the janitors as they left at the end of the day but we were getting paid twice the wage.

Now as I get closer to the end of my career I look back at those years as a janitor and still think it was one of the best jobs I have had. When I meet a new project team for the first time at a job kick-off meeting everyone goes around the table introducing themselves and some spout off all kinds of titles and credentials, usually chest pounding nonsense. When its my turn I have the same refrain, "my name is Jim Carey, and I am the janitor for my firm, I clean up the mess."

[Aaron D.]

Granted, scrappy, driven, hard-working people will always find a way to thrive. However, the US economy has changed dramatically in the past several decades. Manufacturing jobs have gone elsewhere, and the composition of the labor force is markedly different.

Yes, there is work available, but much of it is part-time minimum-wage work, not full-time jobs with good pay. Further, on average, real, inflation-adjusted wages have fallen, not risen.

This is not meant to be political. It is simply reality. Things are indeed different now.

I don't know what's happening in Oregon, but my goodness the manufacturing sector is booming here in Massachusetts. Lack of job applicants is the main problem.

Maybe Oregon youth interested in manufacturing/machining should consider moving.

[JeffOlson]

For our reading enjoyment:

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2016/10/06/1-changes-in-the-american-workplace/

[rider33]

Matthew Crawford in his book "Shopclass as Soulcraft" makes a good case for the decline of trades and manual compedency in general in favor of "information workers".  In 1960 10-15% of the US population had a college degree, right now more than a third do. White collar demand has increased but not at that level. At the same time trade and other manual skill jobs often go begging.  Schools are kicking out kids with degrees that are of less value while at the same time saddling them with MUCH higher debt.   That is a hole that takes a long time to dig out from and I see it all the time among the 20-somethings I know.  Larger social trends are surely at work and stereotypes are not individuals but do think the direction we are pushing kids in terms of training is out of sync with needs.  After all, you can farm out you engineering or accounting work via the Internet to India but it's pretty damn tough to hammer a nail or fix a boiler online.

[JJ]

Matthew Crawford in his book "Shopclass as Soulcraft" makes a good case for the decline of trades and manual compedency in general in favor of "information workers".  In 1960 10-15% of the US population had a college degree, right now more than a third do. White collar demand has increased but not at that level. At the same time trade and other manual skill jobs often go begging.  Schools are kicking out kids with degrees that are of less value while at the same time saddling them with MUCH higher debt.   That is a hole that takes a long time to dig out from and I see it all the time among the 20-somethings I know.  Larger social trends are surely at work and stereotypes are not individuals but do think the direction we are pushing kids in terms of training is out of sync with needs.  After all, you can farm out you engineering or accounting work via the Internet to India but it's pretty damn tough to hammer a nail or fix a boiler online.

Good point and well stated!  Journeyman electricians, plumbers, mechanics, machinists, and boiler-repair techs can make a good and honest living and never be out of a job and can virtually go anywhere in the country and find work...

Another area is health care...my wife worked in this field (Ophthalmology), very successfully for >35 years, and she was NEVER out of a job.  Another area that is tough to outsource...

[Darren Williams]

I have two sons 24 and 26. I told them early on that the most important things I considered when hiring was 1) show up every day on time, 2) Follow directions to a T, paying attention to details to get it right, and 3) Care about the company goals and keep them your focus.  My oldest followed them pretty well and is doing OK for himself. Youngest kept hearing at University a bunch of crap telling him it was all about first impressions, dress, and who you know. Now that he has entered the work force, he acknowledged my 3 points because using them he got a promotion after only 6 weeks. And is being considered for a special position they were looking for a few "motivated" individuals for.

Also, when I was their age, I drove a good but inexpensive economical car, couldn't afford much furniture for my rented place, and had a couple bikes I was able to get cheap.  And I lived very frugally while always having an extra job on the side (from construction work to being a janitor at night) apart from my full time job. It wasn't special, just what I thought I had to do to get by. Now that I have been working for 3-1/2 decades, things are much easier.

Maybe the senior discounts should be given to the ones getting started instead.

[Gliderjohn]

From Kev M:

A typical undergrad student at UPenn in 2018 should expect to pay $60,000-$72,000/YEAR depending on whether they live on or off campus, and/or at home.

It also depends on what part of the country: In KS a typical community college, est. all costs comes to about 15K a year, at Emporia St, full time undergraduate is est. just under 20K. Now if a student can earn some scholarships, and work that number is quite manageable.
I had a student with a mild learning disability in my work-study program that earned 26K in nine months her senior year of HS working as a med aid at local nursing home.
GliderJohn

[bettythebear]

This was an ok article. Really though, it's vastly too short to be of any real information.

My real reaction here is to some of the board members making their posts about millennials needing to be "real men" and do "real mens work". I would really hope that this board would be lower profile in the toxic masculinity department. Half of all millennials are women, are they supposed to jump on the "real men" bandwagon as well?

[Kev m]

I had a student with a mild learning disability in my work-study program that earned 26K in nine months her senior year of HS working as a med aid at local nursing home.
GliderJohn

I hear you, but that still makes my point for me.

I was basically expounding upon the historical contrast between post WWII and current college costs, trying to keep it apple-to-apples.

But your figures say that even something as relatively affordable as a "typical Kansas community college" costs more per year in today's dollars than an Ivy League school in the immediate post WWII era.

Yes, there are ways around it or to make it more affordable, but most are paying a lot more for their college educations today than a half a century ago, or a 1/4 century ago.

I had a student with a mild learning disability in my work-study program that earned 26K in nine months her senior year of HS working as a med aid at local nursing home.
GliderJohn

That sounds impressive.

https://www.indeed.com/salaries/Medical-Assistant-Salaries,-Kansas

At the average medical assistant salary of $14.25/hour, that's 1824 hours of work in 9 months, or about 202 hours per month and about 45 hours per week! That's a full-time job while going to high school.

Did the fact that it was a work-study program help the salary or having the time to do that while maintaining her high school grades?

What was the goal, to stay in the medical assistant field or go on to nursing or medicine? (Just curious as it would seem unlikely the average student would be able to maintain that kind of work load if they were going forward in nursing or pre-med).

[davedel44]

This was an ok article. Really though, it's vastly too short to be of any real information.

My real reaction here is to some of the board members making their posts about millennials needing to be "real men" and do "real mens work". I would really hope that this board would be lower profile in the toxic masculinity department. Half of all millennials are women, are they supposed to jump on the "real men" bandwagon as well?

No they can be real women and do real men's work but get paid less.  Sad but true.

Seriously though just a bunch of old farts telling walked 10 miles in a blizzard to get to school stories.
Don't read too much into it.

Dave
Galveston

[Gliderjohn]

Quote from: gliderjohn on Today at 12:32:24 PM
I had a student with a mild learning disability in my work-study program that earned 26K in nine months her senior year of HS working as a med aid at local nursing home.
GliderJohn

That sounds impressive.

https://www.indeed.com/salaries/Medical-Assistant-Salaries,-Kansas

At the average medical assistant salary of $14.25/hour, that's 1824 hours of work in 9 months, or about 202 hours per month and about 45 hours per week! That's a full-time job while going to high school.

Did the fact that it was a work-study program help the salary or having the time to do that while maintaining her high school grades?

What was the goal, to stay in the medical assistant field or go on to nursing or medicine? (Just curious as it would seem unlikely the average student would be able to maintain that kind of work load if they were going forward in nursing or pre-med).

Yes, she did basically work full-time, She was able to leave school two hours early as those two hours were under my program. She went on and became an RN. Not all can do that but when motivated much can be accomplished.

One of the good things about when I was an undergraduate was that it was in the mid 70s when being unmaterialistic was cool. Didn't feel pressured to have the latest clothes, etc. Low end vehicles were fine too. I drove a $500 64 El Camino and my to be wife an $800 69 Falcon. Seems like that is coming somewhat back into fashion.
GliderJohn
GliderJohn

[Lannis]

This was an ok article. Really though, it's vastly too short to be of any real information.

My real reaction here is to some of the board members making their posts about millennials needing to be "real men" and do "real mens work". I would really hope that this board would be lower profile in the toxic masculinity department. Half of all millennials are women, are they supposed to jump on the "real men" bandwagon as well?

Well, maybe the "real men" comment could be walked back a little bit.   The intended implication is that it's a person who:

1) Realizes that they have to take control of their lives.
2) Not wring their hands and moan "Oh woe is us, things aren't as "Good" as they used to be so I'm in trouble".
3) Figure out how to get trained (or train themselves) to do useful paying work.
4) Figure out how to show up for work and be an asset to themselves or their employer.

Whatever that is is what I was intending ....

Lannis

[DavidR8]

I’m the father of a 26 yr old boy who never finished school but has managed to secure gainful employment in a call centre.

Will it lead somewhere? Who knows but it might have better prospects than other things he’s done (SMH)

One of my two step sons has learning disabilities and goes to school about 1/5 time. He’s 9 and basically cannot read. He’s got great ambitions but hasn’t been able to make the connection between reading and life skills.

The other boy is coming 11 and sharp as a tack. He’s in grade 5 and reads at a grade 9 level and frequently skunks us in serious strategy board games. I have no worries about him.

On to other topics:
I think that the push for secondary education, namely university vs. trades is hurting the economy.

I’m 1986 I remember talking to a apprenticeship rep and he said that in the entire province (Alberta) that year exactly one person signed up as a masonry apprentice.

As far as I know nothing has really changed. Trades are not promoted as heavily as university yet the cost of university is crippling unless you are a genius and get scholarships.

My nieces husband signed on with a small plumbing company, got his ticket and bought the company. Only apprentice in his class that owned a company.

Ages ago I read this book: https://www.amazon.ca/Millionaire-Next-Door-Surprising-Americas/dp/1589795474

Fascinating read. Most interesting fact I recall: the most popular vehicle among American millionaires is a Ford F-150. 
‘Nuff said!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeffOlson]

It is true that we do not educate young people in trade skills, especially in the US. For some reason, we dislike "tracking" or "labeling" our young people and want them all to go on to college.

In the US, fewer than 5 percent of young people train as apprentices. In Germany, the number is closer to 60 percent, and not just in advanced manufacturing but also in IT, banking, and hospitality.

A head-hunter friend told me not too long ago that there are hundreds of thousands of welding jobs open but unfilled in the US...

[Bud]

     I think where you live is a big part of jobs and pay. I'm an electrical contractor in Connecticut. In 1999 I was burned out and went to work for a non union company. Starting pay at that time was $25.00 per hour. I worked there for 2 1/2 years leaving 2002 making $28.00 per hour. If I were to go back SIXTEEN YEARS LATER they would start me at $28.00 per hour. 401K contributions are the same. Cost of health insurance has gone up for both employer and employee which probably has a little to do with slow to little wage increase. THIS IS A FACT I'M NOT WHINING.
     Consequently the lack in pay increases has caused many to start their own businesses which has created more competition. Since the great recession spec house building is almost non existent which has brought all those electricians into the renovation market.
     Trades are good but not as good as they used to be.
     

[Lannis]

     I think where you live is a big part of jobs and pay. .......

.....Since the great recession spec house building is almost non existent which has brought all those electricians into the renovation market.
     Trades are good but not as good as they used to be.
     

You're exactly right about the "where you live" part.   Here where I live, spec houses are going up everywhere to accommodate the burgeoning population (probably coming from Connecticut!!).    A building trades guy has his choice of jobs.

Being that we're on this subject, I spent 45 minutes talking to the Millennial who installed my new dishwasher yesterday morning .... he used to work for a big builder, but went out on his own doing appliance installations for the various appliance places.   He's 33, has two kids of his own plus his wife has two kids from a previous marriage so he's raising 4 boys ages 7 - 11, parked a 2017 Dodge 3500 dually megacab out front, and enthusiastically loving life ....

Location, location, location.   If where you live is "Home" and there's no changing it, then your fortunes rise and fall with that spot.   If that's not working, you go where the work is ....

Lannis

[Chuck in Indiana]

"my name is Jim Carey, and I am the janitor for my firm, I clean up the mess."

  Dorcia's oncologist introduced himself the same way..

[bmp72]

My $0.02 as a non-millenial (from 1972)... what I see is that many technology related university studies prepare you for a computer job. If you've done electrical or mechanical engineer for instance at a place like MIT or Stanford, once you go in the workplace your job is to design and build stuff on a computer. Circuit design, mechanical design etc etc, all done in software on a computer.

This is the type of work that can be done from anywhere in the world. So the reality is that this work will be done by a cheap person in a developing country (India for instance) where people are just as smart as in the US, but willing to work for a fraction of the salary.

If you read through the posts above, a common theme with the success stories that these are jobs that cannot be done remote from a computer. A janitor doing garbage collection needs a local person, is the type work that cannot be done remotely over the internet....

[Rough Edge racing]

You're exactly right about the "where you live" part.   Here where I live, spec houses are going up everywhere to accommodate the burgeoning population (probably coming from Connecticut!!).    A building trades guy has his choice of jobs.

Being that we're on this subject, I spent 45 minutes talking to the Millennial who installed my new dishwasher yesterday morning .... he used to work for a big builder, but went out on his own doing appliance installations for the various appliance places.   He's 33, has two kids of his own plus his wife has two kids from a previous marriage so he's raising 4 boys ages 7 - 11, parked a 2017 Dodge 3500 dually megacab out front, and enthusiastically loving life ....

Location, location, location.   If where you live is "Home" and there's no changing it, then your fortunes rise and fall with that spot.   If that's not working, you go where the work is ....

Lannis

 Yes, money is where the work is.... Do you think a young man with a bunch of kids, wife, a  $60,000 truck isn't in debt up over his head?

[Lannis]

Yes, money is where the work is.... Do you think a young man with a bunch of kids, wife, a  $60,000 truck isn't in debt up over his head?

He says he's not.   It's a $41,000 truck, and he said he made sure it was paid for before he leaped off on his own.   Used his 401K to do it, penalties and all, now starting again on that from 0.   I asked, and I don't have any reason not to believe him.   

He's also very aware of "Cash Flow", and not profitability, as the main killer of small businesses, was way ahead of me on that ...

Generalizations are OK and I use them a lot, but when you have specifics that are different, I like to think of those as "inspiring" stories ....

Lannis

[Rough Edge racing]

He says he's not.   It's a $41,000 truck, and he said he made sure it was paid for before he leaped off on his own.   Used his 401K to do it, penalties and all, now starting again on that from 0.   I asked, and I don't have any reason not to believe him.   

He's also very aware of "Cash Flow", and not profitability, as the main killer of small businesses, was way ahead of me on that ...

Generalizations are OK and I use them a lot, but when you have specifics that are different, I like to think of those as "inspiring" stories ....

Lannis

  Do you really think raiding your 401K to buy a new truck is good business practice? Why a 41K dually pick up instead of a used van ? I was in the trades all my life and a contractor, I have heard all the stories and seen the results...I'm not saying the man isn't motivated and sincere, I just see the potential for disaster....

[blackcat]

  Do you really think raiding your 401K to buy a new truck is good business practice? Why a 41K dually pick up instead of a used van ? I was in the trades all my life and a contractor, I have heard all the stories and seen the results...I'm not saying the man isn't motivated and sincere, I just see the potential for disaster....

A brand new Ram Big Horn 4dr Mega Cab 4WD SB (5.7L 8cyl 6A) lists at $62K. Even if it isn't 4WD the price couldn't be down to $41 unless he purchased this as a used vehicle.  And I agree, starting off on his own he should have purchased a used van and added a trailer if he needed to haul more inventory to a site. Cashing in his 401K at the age of 33 for such a purchase is not such a wise move IMO. 

[Darren Williams]

Really it's about living well. And you have to balance the now verses future ratio.  I have seen both philosophies work and fail. From the guy who scrimps and saves, denying himself and extras till retirement only to have a catastrophic health issue ruin his future plans or the guy who is up to his head in debt all the time but is broke when he is old and can't work any longer.  I believe in a balance of the two.

And I think young folks today have it easier/better in some areas and much harder in others. The way I see it, for the average young person back then and today, there isn't much disposable cash until they have been working for a while. And where they are or were in economic cycles do play a role. As far as education, each has to find themselves a marketable skill that they are comfortable with, some are harder/more costly to get than others. Pay your money and take you chances.