V7 Classic electrical again

[hannibal smith]

Already went through the ignition issue, and fixed that (bad solder joint). Thousands of trouble free miles since.

New one!

Won't start.

1- Battery checks out 100%

2-Starter switch on handlebar checks out, at terminals on switch, to leads in relay.

3-Starter relay checks out

4- Bike starts with the old "screwdriver" trick (starter to solenoid).

So when I press starter button, i'm getting the volts to the relay, but the relay wont switch. I pulled relay cover, and manually pressed the internal arm, and she fires. I get another relay, same thing.

I get no juice from relay to lead on solenoid. I can get continuity from lead on solenoid to where it enters relay.

I was just going to run a start loop with a new starter switch (14g wire) and locate it left side of frame and just bypass the system. What I don't know is what amperage the solenoid wants, and if I shorten my solenoid life by running too many amps (when I bypass relay)?

What I don't get is that if my starter switch is good, why didn't it energize the solenoid? What are the other leads that enter that relay, and are they the leads that truly energize it? The relay is good, and that is what has me confused.

I heard about some classic Guzzi no start issue, can this be it? Is the conventional solution the bypass trick?

Thanks-

[Kev m]

Sounds like classic Guzzi Startus Interruptus, caused by too high a voltage drop between source (battery) and relay (through ignition switch and starter button).

Classic fix is to run a new, dedicated, fused, power source to the relay so sufficient juice is available when starter button is held down.

[malik]

When you switch on the ignition and the dash lights do their dance, does your red oil light go off, or stay on like it's supposed to?. If the light goes off, it may be a faulty oil pressure sensor - the ECU won't allow the bike to start if it reads it as faulty.

Sometimes the kill switch may be faulty. Get a friend to help pull in the clutch, then press the start button while flicking the kill switch on & off - if it's only intermittently faulty, you may get a quick cough of the starter.

The ignition switch can play up. -pull the clutch, keep the start button pressed while moving the handlebars from side to side.

The last time the V7C would start was due to a short at the lambda sensor blow the injection services fuse. The time before that was the left hand switch gear had swivelled slightly around the bar to impede the clutch switch.

Those who know how can trace faults down with the multimeter - I've seen it done, it's like magic, but I'm yet to "perfect the technique", so fumble around in a sea of incompetence. But I'll get there in the end - I've a couple of full re-wiring jobs coming up, so I had better practice.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I don't think it's Startus Interuptus, it cranks when he pushes the relay armature (how's that possible)

I think it's either the switch on the clutch lever or the stand switch, something that stops the relay picking up.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_V7_Classic.gif

If you look at the relay (36) you will see one side of the coil is alive when you press Start, the other side should be grounded through the clutch switch (35) and the Stand switch (13)
Plug your multimeter on Volts into the socket of the relay, (2 small pins) one will be 12V referenced to the chassis. I'm not sure about the logic but diode (40) will also ground the coil, probably as Malik describes.
If the ECU won't let it crank the stand switch should.

[Kev m]

I don't think it's Startus Interuptus, it cranks when he pushes the relay armature (how's that possible)

Maybe I'm not understanding the descriptions, when he means relay and when he means solenoid. But shouldn't the solenoid have it's own power source, that's why it would start when he connects the power by moving the solenoid arm. No?

[Kiwi_Roy]

No, I think he meant relay, he pulled the cover off it.

I think he has shown good troubleshooting skills eh?

[hannibal smith]

Thanks all so far.

My oil light does the proper thing. I checked the sidestand switch too on my first trouble-shoot.

I will get back to the forum once I get it sorted with what I find..............

Thanks!

[Kiwi_Roy]

You have proven the bike will start if you press the relay armature in 

I think you have already proven that you get 12 Volts to the start relay coil 86 terminal when you press the start button

Now you just have to prove that the 85 terminal of the relay coil is grounded, if not it will go +12 Volts when you press the start button.

The 85 terminal of the start relay, Violet wire goes to the microswitch on the clutch lever, the other side goes to the side stand switch (Violet / Maroon wire). Try shorting between the two switch terminals or the Violet wire to chassis, no danger of shorting out any current there.

Note: In common with most other Guzzis the supply to the Start relay 30 terminal is derived from the ignition switch, the solenoid draws 40+ Amps to pull in.
If that is playing up you will get a quiet click from the relay and the Voltage on terminal 30 will drop when the relay closes, I believe you have proven that's ok by pushing the relay armature.

[hannibal smith]

Been busy with other bikes, so back to the stranded Guzzi!

Is the wire color for "Starter Interuptus" yellow on a V7 Classic?

If it is, I just attempted to bypass with a lead wire from it to battery, and nothing. 

[Kiwi_Roy]

Lets clarify
When you press the start button the start relay does nothing

When you remove the cover off the relay and press the armature it cranks, does it then fire and start?

It seems you are saying the relay is not picking up, That's not classic Status Interrupts.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_V7_Classic.gif

Look at item (36) on the schematic, the two right hand terminals are the coil This needs 12 Volts to close the relay contacts

Beside relay (36) is (35) the clutch interlock switch, I would see if that's closing

Item (13) the side stand switch closing:

Item (40) is the diode for Neutral light
Item (41) is the Neutral switch


Ouote "So when I press starter button, i'm getting the volts to the relay, but the relay wont switch"
The other end of the coil must be fixed at zero Volts, if not it will just follow the button end.

The green/red wire needs to be grounded to fix the other end of the coil to zero Volts
This will happen if either (13) OR (41) are closed.

Actually I think the green/red wire must be grounded or the bike wouldn't run, it also hold the injection relay (11) On
It's looking more like the clutch switch

 
The relay coil should measure around 100 Ohms

[Kiwi_Roy]

Been busy with other bikes, so back to the stranded Guzzi!

Is the wire color for "Starter Interuptus" yellow on a V7 Classic?

If it is, I just attempted to bypass with a lead wire from it to battery, and nothing.

Carl's drawing shows it as red/?, it's the wire that goes to terminal 30 of relay (36). It might be yellow, there are too many colour variations to show on a drawing, white for instance would not show well.
Clasic Startus Interuptus is caused by too much resistance in the wire feeding 30 or the wire from 87 to the solenoid, I don't believe the factory realize the starter solenoid draws up to 40 Amps when the relay closes.
The start relay should not be supplied through the ignition switch, but what do I know?

[hannibal smith]

It's looking more like the clutch switch

You are not going to believe this.

So it was on the lift when I tried to start it last February, and this whole debacle ensued.

Then I realized something after you mentioned the clutch switch............. .........what did I do different than normal?

Pull in the damn clutch! I just hit the starter on the bike off to the side, without pulling the clutch.

Guess what happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks!

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

Ha Ha been there done that
I enjoyed the puzzle anyway.

[Chuck in Indiana]

  I've never done anything like that.. 

[hannibal smith]

Ha Ha been there done that
I enjoyed the puzzle anyway.

Well if anything, I know a lot more about Guzzi electrics now!

The answer was the clutch. 

[malik]

I've never done anything like that.. 

Had to laugh, snigger, giggle. Been there, done that too.

Welcome to the club, Mr Smith.

As I mentioned in passing in my early post here, when the LHS switch block had swivelled around the hthe V7C's handlebar (an aftermarket one with already too many locating holes drilled), a mate who is very handy with a multi meter was convinced it was the clutch switch. Lo & behold, the switch block had swivelled just enough to stop the lever engaging the switch.

That was a"reasonable" problem, intelligently solved. Unlike the time when another mate & I spent a while trying to push start the bike up & down the back lane. Only found this "problem" by accident - muscle memory pulled the clutch in automatically, & somehow I touched the starter button.

The other times, I'd rather forget - but it usually happens after the Classic has been laid up for a while, long enough to lose the habit. The V7C is the only one of my bikes with this "safety feature".  And those who borrow the bike usually have to be instructed appropriately.

Now to solve the V7C's current electrical gremlin. Got a spark from the alternator body when replacing the cover, followed later by a blown main fuse and a low charge in the battery. Re-charging the battery enabled starting. Some 14V with the engine running, so the charging system's working, but there's a significant parasitic draw - running the battery down rapidly - a volt or two in a could of hours. I've re- charged the battery once more to 13V & have let it sit for a couple of days out of the bike. I'll measure it again later later today. And I have a new battery in the post, just in case. The next most likely suspect is the reg/rec. I'll try swapping that out before looking further.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Malik,
        Tell me, is your alternator one of the simple permanent magnet types with two yellow wires or a more complicated belt driven one similar to what's on a Norge or Griso.
The former shouldn't have any juice to short out when it's not spinning.
Pete Roper mentioned something about the latter with the T shaped plug, apparently only the upper bar (-) should be alive, the (I) should not.

We are talking modern V7, not one from the 70s?

[malik]

Roy,

I think it's the two wire version (it's a 2010 Classic). But I'll check when up at the Shed later this morning. I shall try to find that T shaped plug you mentioned - can't recall it, at present. I do remember that there there were once two (yellow?) wire leading up from the reg/rec to a junction box under the tank. This box did burn out in the past and I cut out the burnt bits & soldered new wires in, doing away with the junction box. It was a bit awkward when it came to take the engine out, but easy enough to de-solder and do again.

That spark at the alternator did startle me. There should NOT be anything live there. A cursory examination didn't reveal anything amiss, and everything still worked, so I buttoned it up & went on my way. Now it seems there is something wrong. I'll let you know what I find, in, say, an hour or two.

Mal

[Kiwi_Roy]

Mal,
      I haven't laid hands on one of these modern Guzzi regulators but I'm pretty sure they will be similar to the earlier Ducati Energias from ~2000, the only way you will get Voltage at the alternator when not spinning is if a diode has shorted out and you might be able to detect that with a multimeter measuring between a red wire and either of the yellows, meter on Ohms.
The regulator will draw a tiny residual current but it should be < a milliamp;.

Try looking for the parasitic current draw using a small lamp in place of each fuse, one at a time. It's a bit tricky using a multimeter for that because if you overload the meter and blow it's internal fuse of course it will say zero.
Another way I sometimes do it is use a small resistor say 220 - 1000 Ohms in place of the fuse, measure the Voltage drop across it then calculate the current.

[malik]

Up at the Shed -
The battery I charged up to 13v on Sunday & left on the table is now down to 12.5V. Suspect?

I put the meter across a few things, but the only thing significant seemed to be a draw of 49 mA (?) on the positive (compared to 20mA on the V7S. The alternator to ground seemed to be inert at present.

I removed the regulator - lo & behold - I may well have found the problem. There's 2 yellow wires from the alternator, then there's 2 green wires & two red & white wires  that disappear upwards into a block then in to the harness. One of the red & white wires is broken. If I connect up the battery, there is loose power there.

Time now to ponder my options, and align these with my abilities (or lack of them). A good time for another cup of tea. All may be well for the weekend run to Goulburn, starting tomorrow.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Up at the Shed -
The battery I charged up to 13v on Sunday & left on the table is now down to 12.5V. Suspect?

I put the meter across a few things, but the only thing significant seemed to be a draw of 49 mA (?) on the positive (compared to 20mA on the V7S. The alternator to ground seemed to be inert at present.

I removed the regulator - lo & behold - I may well have found the problem. There's 2 yellow wires from the alternator, then there's 2 green wires & two red & white wires  that disappear upwards into a block then in to the harness. One of the red & white wires is broken. If I connect up the battery, there is loose power there.

Time now to ponder my options, and align these with my abilities (or lack of them). A good time for another cup of tea. All may be well for the weekend run to Goulburn, starting tomorrow.

I would say the battery Voltage is normal, it will always drop some once disconnected from the charger.

You say the Red/white wire is broken, why?
The 2000 era spine frame bikes were always melting their 30 Amp fuses (not blowing, melting the plastic), the series regulators put out high current spikes, if there is any resistance in a connector the I squared R will create a lot of heat.
I would consider replacing any plug and socket connection with crimp links and for good measure dip the wires in Vaseline before you crimp them.
49 milliamps is a lot of parasitic drain, that will leave you flat in less than a week.

[malik]

The cause? The V7C has this trapezoidal splash guard under the headstock & just above the regulator. It appears this may have impinged on the wires on one side & worn a groove. As this is often off & on to access the air filter, I would caution others with a similar arrangement to use care when re-attaching.
Note that the single throttle body models have dispensed with this splash guard.





Although there was not much wire to play with, I did crimp on connectors , although I didn't think of the Vaseline. Next time - once I scare up a source of decent connectors. Not really happy with these ones. Here's a photo before wrapping the offending articles in self-amalgamating tape.





I didn't end up replacing the soldered yellow wires with connectors this time - ran out of ones that would fit, but that's on the cards for 'Ron.

In the meantime I'll put the regulator from the Breva in my luggage, just in case. Note that the '07 Breva's regulator is 30mm deep, the V7's is 40mm & I'm told the series III V7's are deeper still - an attempt to dissipate excess heat? My local Guzzi mechanics say that some of the modern bikes (such as the GRiSO) are known to occasional blow fuses upon ignition, it seems for no specific reason. Put down to the complexities of fuel injection. That would worry me somewhat.

I've a mate who has had many Guzzis & Ducatis, says the regulators are a soft spot, after the first couple failed, he sourced a better substitute, bought a job lot & replaced them all. No further problems.

Roy, how does one minimise resistance in the connectors?

It was late last night when I left the Shed, so I missed testing the draw. Muggins! I'll do that right now. And add in a couple of other things & head off on a three day test ride.

Thanks for all  your advice, and I'll make up a light for fuse testing - and try to find that purpose built one with the blown globe too. Just had it the other day.

[sign216]

Nice Work Malik, good to know about the plastic cover. 

I thought bad relays were the issue of a few decades ago.  Is that problem still current?  (get it; "current,"  it's an electrical pun.)

Joe

[malik]

Well, I've still got the original relays after 7 1/2 years & 173,000 km, so I suppose they are not a problem. Early days yet. Also still the originals in the '14 Special after 100,000km, but so little falls over on that one I wouldn't expect it. Touchwood.

Tested the draw - it looks like 0.3 mA - that's from 2 multimeters if I've got it right. The other meter ( a new pocket auto-ranging affair reads some 280, but as the battery reads the same, or slightly higher voltage as yesterday before it went in (13.3) and was charging at 14.4 at 3,000 rpm, I'll go with the lower numbers. I'll give it another go tonight after some 300km & again more over the weekend - it's an Enfield Rally, so there will be a few other meters on site for comparison, as well as people who know what they are doing when they have one in their hot little hands.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The current 0.3 mA sounds about right for a regulator, the other meter was probably on the microamp range (µA), also close to 0.3 mA (0.3mA = 300µA) just better resolution.
I sent a PM but I think I may have sent it to Hannibal Smith by mistake, he'll wonder what the hell it's about.
Good call to take a spare reg, I'm sure it's the same.

Have a great weekend.
Roy

[malik]

The Breva regulator has the same part no., the same number of wires, of the same colours, but these wires depart the heat sink in a different order,  although the same coloured wires join the loom & the alternator in the same places. I've been assured that they are the the same and proceeding on that basis.

No PM so far, must have gone to Hannibal, but still it's pretty close - I think he's  only just down the road in Adelaide Hendrik has tried on occasion to have me visit for a Sunday afternoon at the wineries - just because he rides a Monza & does Adelaide to Brisbane overnight regularly, he's certain Sydney is just around the corner.