Finally, the Harley Davidson death rattle.....

[MMRanch]

Yea , its that  " Idea " that "Real Men Ride 800# Bikes "  that I think will be their downfall .   I don't know anybody that can man-handle 800#'s like its 400#'s .

If their 750 bike was sized for  men instead of 5'3" women then they might have sold me one instead of me getting a  Guzzi V-7.    But , the Harley would have had to be as light or lighter than the Guzzi too !

I've got a Sportster that's less than 600 # , and like it , but it don't handle like my V-7II --- not even close !

[Lannis]

Actually, it's already well on the way to being solved - through induction loops embedded in the road. Like any other change to the fuel issue (LNG, propane, hydrogen fuel cell, etc) the real problem is changing the infrastructure.

If "imagining" burying and powering "induction loops" in 4,000,000 miles of US highways qualifies as "well on its way to being solved" then ... no, I can't finish that statement.   

Lannis

[ITSec]

If "imagining" burying and powering "induction loops" in 4,000,000 miles of US highways qualifies as "well on its way to being solved" then ... no, I can't finish that statement.   

Lannis

Exactly. A technical solution is the easy part of any such problem. Making it real is the difference between concept and science on the one hand, and engineering and economics on the other.

[rodekyll]

If Harley wasn't so set in their 1 image of burly leather clad riders on brute looking bikes with potato sounding sound that led to most customers & dealers ignoring Buell  bikes on their display floors too maybe HD could have widened their appeal to more riders.   But Nooo Buell got kicked out instead and here they are now.  They have thrived on 1 image and they are going to die on the same image.   While other major MC brands appeal to many different kinds of products to stay afloat.  You reap what you sow.

At least our local HD dealer doesn't sell just HDs.   They have Jap. bikes, quads, jet skis, etc.   But more HDs on display than anything else.

Why quote me and then say something unrelated?

[gearman]

I hope not. It would be a very sad day...

I have my eye on a new Road King, with wire wheels, white wall tires, hard bags that open and close easily and do not leak, a removable windscreen... Sort of like this one:

That is a pretty bike.No leather or studs.

[Chet Rugg]

its like a brown bassa. the color makes that rk

[Arizona Wayne]

Why quote me and then say something unrelated?

Rk, your ego has no limits.  You have nothing to do with what I said you are referring to now. 

To all..........a couple hours ago there were 58 posts on this subject @ this website I posted.  Now there are over 100.  I suggest you read them and see for yourself what other bikers have to say starting from the top. 

[rodekyll]

Rk, your ego has no limits.  You have nothing to do with what I said you are referring to now. 

I'm just guessing at what this gibberish means, but you appear to be repeating what I said -- that your comment had nothing to do with what you quoted.  So I'll ask again (without the rolly-eye thing):  Why quote someone in a comment that has no relevance to the quote?

[oldbike54]

 Good grief , it is just a bunch of guys prognosticating about something they likely don't know anything about . The MoCo has had its ups and downs repeatedly , they will probably survive .

 Remember this ?

                               Moto Guzzi ,
                            Established 1921
                        Going out of business
                                Since 1922

 Hell , HD is a cash rich company , they could probably survive for 20 years on that alone while they adapt .

 The world is full of business experts who have zero experience .

 Dusty

[John Ulrich]

The Manitowoc, WI HD dealership had a Moto Guzzi franchise for a while....

[jumpmaster]

  I believe the aging riders have been discussed previously here and elsewhere ?  It was the end of Harley in the late 70's because of poor quality and the flood of big Asian bikes...It was the death of Harley around 1950 because of the lighter faster British bikes flooding into the country. Harley even filed an unfair trade deal and lost...Was it back around 1920 when Harley was figured to fold because of Indian ? 
  Will HD rise from the ashes one more time? I say yes..

Actually, if memory serves me, H-D did win an ufair trade complaint in the early 1980s & got gov't protection for (?) years - I also seem to remember that they asked that the protection be removed a year or 2 early and made a bit deal of it in a PR campaign.

On the "other brands in Harley dealerships" issue, H-D has had for years a blanket policy of no other brands co-located with a Harley dealership, particularly after about 1989-90 or so, when the waiting lines were 1.5+ years for a bike in many areas; a few dealerships that had other brands before this time were grandfathered in but, for the most part, were forced to drop the other brands (or drop Harley), especially if they moved or substantially renovated their location.  I live close to one such dealership, & this guy managed to keep his multi-brand dealership even tho he did move - none of us can figure out how he did it, unless he has pictures of senior management of H-D in a pasture "getting ziggy" with some sheep or something equivalent.  So, like everything else, there are exceptions to the rule.

[rodekyll]

Dusty, an article was offered for our consideration.  I considered it, and my opinion of the article was that the author was being critical of HD for staying the same, and then critical of them for changing.  I concluded that the author was engaged in standard HD bashing.

My general comment was that all business and all industry must find a way to evolve or they die.  GE invented the incandescent light bulb (Edison).  They no longer produce them.  Western Union no longer uses the telegraph.  Wells Fargo gave up mass transportation.

And that's all I said.  When one of my comments got quoted in an unrelated post, I asked how come?  In reply I was insulted in a very ungrammatical fashion, leaving my question unanswered.  So I've asked again.

[oldbike54]

 That was kinda my point , some business "expert" writes an opinion piece bashing the MoCo , I'm curious if he can knows what a P&L sheet is ?

 Maybe we should put this one to rest fellas , these threads predicting how the MoCo is failing never seem to end well .

 Dusty

[tazio]

Put a short sweet 80 miles on the H-D Street Glide before work today.
 It's sort of the antithesis of my GRiSO.
It's nice to have choices...

[oldbike54]

 I had a 650 BSA that made a "death rattle" right before the crankshaft welded its self to a failed main bearing 

 Dusty

[rodekyll]

My BSA ran the best it ever did in the few minutes before the center third of the conrod beat me over the Montana border.  I even thought to myself "Wow -- this thing runs GREAT!  How long can it last?"  Then I found out.  DEATH RATTLE CONTENT:  I could hear the engine bits rattling down the road after the bike went silent.

[oldbike54]

 Yep .

 At least the BSA's gave us warning , I had a hot rod Triumph that went BANG , then silence 

 Dusty

[Rough Edge racing]

Yep .

 At least the BSA's gave us warning , I had a hot rod Triumph that went BANG , then silence 

 Dusty

 The hot rod Triumph I built is currently the fastest stock naked frame Triumph in the world, it hasn't blowed up  ...And the BSA trying to go faster ripped it's cylinders from the crankcase.....The BSA actually has a better head design...

   Harley needs to take on the completion, not hide behind 10 versions of the same basic bike ...There will always be a market for Big Twins ,just not as big as now

[Lannis]

It was an excellent explanation.

I have had several debates years ago with my SAE friends about that problem and its more complicated than it looks...
We never did come to an agreement.

Hadn't thought of that problem in very long time.

If you're referring to the "Where will the Ball Stop" question - 

In actuality, you'd have to add in friction from:

1) Air resistance, which would always act opposite the direction of motion, as opposed to gravity, which always operates toward the center, and thus sometimes in the direction of motion and sometimes opposite ...

and

2) Friction with the sides of the hole.   In a stationary sphere, not a factor - in a rotating sphere, the ball starts out with an angular velocity component equal to that of the surface of the earth.   As it falls, that initial component is retained by the ball, but the angular velocity of the "hole" decreases, and thus the ball would "rub" against the side.   If (like air) you assume no friction in the basic problem, then it doesn't affect anything.   If you DO assume friction against the side ....

Then the falling object eventually stops at the center of the earth.

Lannis

[arveno]

Interesting article.
I am sorry for those HD employees that lost their job.

Electric motorcycle?
I am not interested , if the new crowd will like them , good for them.
My formula is an aicooled engine and carbs .

I am a simple guy.

[blu guzz]

I have owned a 92 1200 Sportster and a 2006 Wide Glide.  I enjoyed trouble free riding from both.  I think that RK is a beautiful beast.  My 30 year old son however, does not see HD as relevant.  He makes good money and could buy an HD if he wanted, but bought a Kawi Versus used.  He graduated college in the teeth of the last recession and is pretty careful with money now.  Many of his classmates who graduated from 2008 to 2014 are the same way and with their loans, few have money to even think about a used bike much less a new bike especially when they start at $20,000.  I believe many people his age see the HD as nostalgic, but not in the good way that people of our generation do.  They simply see it as another choice, one they can't afford or if they could would not want.
I grieve for the loss of good paying jobs at the closed plant.  But, if the mellenials view HD in the way just described and will not be able to afford one until they are in their 40s, then I see a big problem.  The Japanese makers have the millions of under 100 cc bikes they sell every year in the 3rd world and Asia to support them, but HD does not have such supports.  "I've got a bad feeling about this" - Han Solo.

[Rough Edge racing]

But this business model has worked so well for Guzzi for the last decade. Exciting new paint schemes on the same frame from 5 decades ago.

  Yes...But Guzzi is a very small manufacturer with a dedicated following that has remained steady through the years?

[JJ]

  Yes...But Guzzi is a very small manufacturer with a dedicated following that has remained steady through the years?

As the old saying goes..."Moto Guzzi...going out of business since 1921!!"




upload photos

[kirb]

Just about any other MFG would do whatever they could to get HD's sales, buyer loyalty, and brand awareness.

They are not going anywhere. The entire industry is hurting. Most will fall WAY before HD does.

[Phang]

What the article did was mock the old way of doing business while ridiculing the strategy to get past the inertia.

All industries and all businesses must evolve or die.  HD is no different.  Could you imagine using kerosene lamps in 2018 simply because electricity is silly?

kerosene lamps enthusiasts hoping that the new electric bulb will look, operate and even smell like a kerosene lamp is equally silly to me.

If HD or Guzzi make an electric bike, please don't make something that resembles a V twin internal combustion engine in the chassis/frame

[JJ]

kerosene lamps enthusiasts hoping that the new electric bulb will look, operate and even smell like a kerosene lamp is equally silly to me.

If HD or Guzzi make an electric bike, please don't make something that resembles a V twin internal combustion engine in the chassis/frame

 




free upload without registration

[Rick in WNY]

OK, first off, that OP-ED piece is just someone who's hated Harleys and is jumping at the chance to "get his licks in."

I be he kicks people when they're down too.

I despise people like that. No class at all, and what's worse, he whines about a problem, but doesn't offer any sort of solution.

Is HD in trouble? Sorta. The union contract with the KC plant was coming up. Sales and profits are down. HD corporate had to make some changes to keep the business alive.  That said, I see two things they could address...

#1 - Offer an entry-level bike. The Sportster isn't a bad bike, but at $7-8K, it's not a cheap starter bike. The Street series of bikes was supposed to fill that niche, and failed. The build quality sucked on the initial offering, and while it's been fixed, too little too late, the damage is done. It's also only a thousand less than a "Made in 'Murica" Sportster.

  So, HD, rename the Street, cut the price to $3500-4000 out the door. Offer some incentives for the first year or two to get them out on the road. That will start the next generation of Harley riders.

#2 - Learn from the mistake that was the Street and when you release your electric bike, do it right! No sloppy assembly, no cheesy plastic parts in critical places, good fit and finish. But then offer it as a modular machine. $6-8K for the base package, but make it upgradable with extra battery packs.

Electric bikes are coming, and if they get to the point that I could ride one round trip to and from work, 40 miles of hills each way, and still have a decent power reserve left, yes, I'd buy one.

[JJ]

  I believe the aging riders have been discussed previously here and elsewhere ?  It was the end of Harley in the late 70's because of poor quality and the flood of big Asian bikes...It was the death of Harley around 1950 because of the lighter faster British bikes flooding into the country. Harley even filed an unfair trade deal and lost...Was it back around 1920 when Harley was figured to fold because of Indian ? 
  Will HD rise from the ashes one more time? I say yes..

This is from Red Rock HD in Las Vegas a few weekends ago...lots of inventory here!  Beautiful dealership!  :1:

[Lannis]

OK, first off, that OP-ED piece is just someone who's hated Harleys and is jumping at the chance to "get his licks in."

I be he kicks people when they're down too.

I despise people like that. No class at all, and what's worse, he whines about a problem, but doesn't offer any sort of solution.

Called "journalism" these days.   The article was amazingly successful.   People are reading it, posting about it, discussing it.   He hit every goal.

Look at ANY of the MSM these days, and they're doing the same thing.   Be shocking, be something that people argue about and get passionate about; get your agenda forwarded, and **** the truth or anything useful ....

Lannis

[oldbike54]

 Let me make this perfectly clear , we are not going down "The MSN is lying to us" rabbit hole . Clear enough fellas . This article has nothing to do with MSN , and associating the two is a huuuugggge stretch .

 Dusty