mysterious and predictable engine cutting out

[antmanbee]

The sensor is not expensive if you don't buy the part from Guzzi.

http://www.miparts.com/detail/rpm-sensor-engine-management_15598#.WotM7qinGUm

Also available on ebay from England for about $30-40.

[lazlokovacs]

Kiwi Roy you are a gentleman and a scholar!!!

thank you so much for your help...

due to work commitments it will be a few days until I can work on the bike, will let you know the outcome.

Antmanbee that sounds very plausible too thank you....

 

[rodekyll]

I had this happen to me on a trip.  Temps in the 90s (unusual for Carmacks, YT).  Sheets of rain.  Humidity past 100%.  I pulled into a gas stop, filled up, got some crap from a "biker" and decided I wanted to get some distance between him and me.  So I flogged it out of the driveway and up the highway.  Less than a mile down the road the bike simply died.  Like yours.  I managed to pull into a road maintenance gravel pit (out of sight of the road) and went down the basics.  Nothing obviously amiss, so I punched the button and off I went.  No stumbles -- ran perfectly.  Things were perfect until the next gas stop, where except for the harassment, I repeated the previous incident.  This time I went after the relays.  When I went to pull them out for the mix-n-match, the fuel pump relay cap came off and water poured out.  I didn't like that, and my spares were also Siemens.  I went to the abandoned Ford SUV in the gravel pit and pulled its unlabeled relays, replacing all of my OEMS with stuff from the stuffed Ford.  I didn't have any Vaseline with me so I dressed the contacts with Chap Stick. Later I glued a piece of inner tube over the fuse and relay block.  The Ford relays are still in there after 10+ years, and I've had no further incidents.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The sensor is not expensive if you don't buy the part from Guzzi.

http://www.miparts.com/detail/rpm-sensor-engine-management_15598#.WotM7qinGUm

Also available on ebay from England for about $30-40.

Wow, I thought I would easily find a compatible Auto product, I ended up getting one off an MV Augusta from a Dutch vendor.
I don't normally like putting Chinese parts on my Guzzi but in this case it's such a simple device pretty hard for them to screw up.
Thanks for the source 

[antmanbee]

I use a lot of Chinese parts on my Guzzi and have had good luck and been impressed with most.
I think there is a lot of unwarranted prejudice against Chinese manufactured parts like there used to be for Japanese parts in the 60s and 70s.

[ELVIS]

Hello Everybody.
I am the aforementioned friend of 'lazlokovacs' and owner of the naughty Cali vintage.
Thank you all very much for your input in helping solve my issue.

Below is a list of changes I have made, in chronological order
The bike is behaving a lot better, It starts everytime now and loosing spark less but still is loosing spark on occasion and always in the first 5 minutes of riding, If I keep it alive after 5 minutes of riding it is always well behaved and nothing unusual, very head scratching...
So far I have...
*checked battery. no issues
*fitted new NGK spark plugs and caps. This didn't make much difference
*checked side stand switch. no issues
*checked RPM sensor. no issues
*tried running bike with disconnected temperature sensor. made no difference
*checked all fuses, and replaced entire set of relays (ordered gutsibits' standard set of relays, not sure of the brand). This has made a noticeable difference though strangely not solved the issue completely.. maybe the terminals that the relays slot into need a clean?? Any other ideas given this information?

Thanks again everybody.
My first post!
Elv

[Huzo]

Hello Everybody.
I am the aforementioned friend of 'lazlokovacs' and owner of the naughty Cali vintage.
Thank you all very much for your input in helping solve my issue.

Below is a list of changes I have made, in chronological order
The bike is behaving a lot better, It starts everytime now and loosing spark less but still is loosing spark on occasion and always in the first 5 minutes of riding, If I keep it alive after 5 minutes of riding it is always well behaved and nothing unusual, very head scratching...
So far I have...
*checked battery. no issues
*fitted new NGK spark plugs and caps. This didn't make much difference
*checked side stand switch. no issues
*checked RPM sensor. no issues
*tried running bike with disconnected temperature sensor. made no difference
*checked all fuses, and replaced entire set of relays (ordered gutsibits' standard set of relays, not sure of the brand). This has made a noticeable difference though strangely not solved the issue completely.. maybe the terminals that the relays slot into need a clean?? Any other ideas given this information?

Thanks again everybody.
My first post!
Elv

Nowhere near Epsom/Surrey are you ?

[oldbike54]

 Welcome to WG Elvis .

 Dusty

[Kiwi_Roy]

Welcome Elvis,

Did you ever try to determine if one of the relays was dropping out as back in reply 23?
Knowing if one or both of the relays is dropping out will give us a vital clue.
Use a length of 20 gauge or finer wire wrapped around the relay 87 pin, small 12V lamp to ground.

When you turn the key On both lamps will light
3 or 4 seconds later the second one will go out,
when you press start button the second light should come on again and stay alight as long as the bike's running.

Other
Look in each of the relay bases, poke each contact to make sure it doesn't push out the back.

[lazlokovacs]

kiwi roy,

Elvis and I will perform the lamp test tomorrow...

Interestingly, today the headlight fuse blew completely, the fog lights and accessories outlet stopped working (although the corresponding fuse was good) and the key switch fuse looked burnt but not totally out.

hmmm

[Kiwi_Roy]

Interestingly, today the headlight fuse blew completely,   Do you mean Fuse 3?
Its possible it was just a fluke or I would be looking for a short possibly in the brake light, i wouldn't worry unless it happens again.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_California_Vintage.gif
the fog lights and accessories outlet stopped working (although the corresponding fuse was good) and the key switch fuse looked burnt but not totally out.          Although the fog lights and accessory socket is powered from Fuse 5 the relay coil (33) is fed from the headlight fuse, if that's out the fog lights will be off, interesting the accessory socket is shown to work when the Fog lights are NOT, I would have expected it to come on the same time as fog lights, perhaps the relay is one of those with two 87 contacts not an 87/87a



Prepare to leave the little lamps in place as long as it takes for the trouble to surface again, just tuck them somewhere out of the way that you can see if need be.

Good Luck

[ELVIS]

yep fuse 3

also, I tried your test but when I connect pin 87 to ground via a multimeter (i dont have a test light) from the pump relay it causes the pump to activate for as long as i maintain ground... is this normal?

 

[ELVIS]

my bad....

the multimeter is no substitute for the test light as it doesnt have any load.... right???

[Kiwi_Roy]

Are you sure you are grounding 87, that doesn't make sense it would cause the fuse to blow
If you ground 86 of the pump relay it will make the pump go.

Yes, the multimeter has it's uses but a small lamp is much more practical for this test.
You cannot hold the multimeter in place while riding, a light can be just fixed in place and forgotten until it's needed.
Do you have an electronics parts store nearby where you can purchase some small 12 Volt lamps, another option is to make a couple of lamps using LEDs and 1000-2000 Ohm resistors

The lamp on the 87 contact will not change the relay's state, just tell you what it is.

I'll send you a PM

[lazlokovacs]

hey kiwiroy,

I had a good look at elvis's bike today... annoyingly the wires going to and from the pump and ecu relays are completely different colours than shown in the manual. the other relays and fuses are correct as per the manual.

The loom has 100per cent verifiably not been touched since the bike was new...

not an insurmountable problem, but.... challenging

just to be clear the pump relay is far right with the ecu relay next along yes?

and pin 87 is in the middle of the relay yes?

    relay looks like this right?;
                           

                            I
                            I         <this one is 87
                          -   -


cheers

[Kiwi_Roy]

I believe you are correct, 30 and 87 are full size spade connectors.
It is possible your bikes may use a different relay than we do but the pin numbers should be standard.
Give me the part No if you see one and I will check

I normally draw them like so

 ------  30  Always alive

 ------   87  normally open,  the load connects to this one

 |  |  |  65, 87a, 66              65-66 should read ~120 Ohms (maybe backwards)

30 to 87a will read zero Ohms

What's the plan?

[ELVIS]

Yesterday Lazlo made some testlights to connect to the relay and we did KiwiRoys test (Thank you Kiwi_Roy!)

some interesting things happened...







1. I turn the key on, ECU/on Pump/on for 1 second and then off, like normal
2. I press the starter ECU/on Pump/on
3. after a 2-4 minutes, predictably, the bike looses the odd spark but just about stays alive, while this is happening both ECU and 4. Pump light stay strong
5. after another minute of missing spark and backfiring the bike does cut out, lights read ECU/on Pump/off AND interestingly the red oil light on the dash flickers uncertainly for a few seconds before then deciding to stay on.
6. I turn key off
7.I turn the key on, ECU/on Pump/on for 1 second and then off, like normal
8. this time the bike does not start again. I leave it for about 3 minutes and try again and it starts up fine.

So, many strange things happening.

The one thing that is the most head scratching to me is that this consistently happens around the 2-4 minute mark, If it manages to stay alive past this, it operates absolutely fine and never misses a spark... is something being affected by the bike not being warm yet? Does the ECU send different information pre and post the bike warming up? The cables on the bike look in great condition so I am sceptical of the bike shorting out because of a frayed wire, as then why would cut out after 2-4 minutes and not afterwards? thinking out loud now :)

Thanks for everyones replies!

Elv

[Kiwi_Roy]

That's great information, not sure what it means exactly but it's eliminated the wiring.

Actually I'm starting to lean towards the RPM sensor or timing sensor, its opening up as it heats up then perhaps closes again once really hot.
This sensor is just a coil of wire wound over a magnet, quite often I have seen coils corroding off or breaking off where they are soldered to the wires.
This sensor is common to both left and right cylinders so it probably effects both sides similarly. You may be able to catch it with your Ohmmeter, the normal is about 680 Ohms
The pump relay doesn't drop out straight away it has to miss a number of pulses but the ignition and injectors have to see every pulse or they will get out of kilter.

Do you have another similar bike you can borrow the sensor off while you order a couple of the sensors Antmanbee showed us in reply 30

What do you think of the lights idea now?

[Kiwi_Roy]

http://www.dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf  This document is a good tutorial on the Fuel Injection, don't worry that it's old it still applies.
Note the gap 0.6 - 1.2mm, i usually stick a blob of wax or glue on the end then measure it once it's impressed by the wheel.

And one last thing, the sensor cable is only about a foot long so find the connector 1,2,3 buried under the tank snd make sure the contacts in there are in good shape.

[Muzz]

Roy, there wouldn't be an electrolytic cap.in the ECU which heats up, fails, then self repairs enough to be able to carry on?

Used to have the odd problem in early ham radio sets sometimes. Intermittent faults can be a real swine to track down sometimes.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Roy, there wouldn't be an electrolytic cap.in the ECU which heats up, fails, then self repairs enough to be able to carry on?

Used to have the odd problem in early ham radio sets sometimes. Intermittent faults can be a real swine to track down sometimes.

I hope not the chances of finding something like that are pretty slim.
The way it started backfiring with no loss of relay pointed to the ECU loosing track of the phonic wheel and firing at the wrong time something that fits right into a failed sensor
if that doesn't fix it the next step would be the ECU so hopefully it's just the inexpensive sensor.
If you think about how vital the sensor is why not have a spare, I tried to find an auto equivalent around here, impossible
http://www.miparts.com/detail/rpm-sensor-engine-management_15598#.WotM7qinGUm From Antmanbee

[ELVIS]

I have ordered a RPM sensor, cheapest one i could find was on Amazon...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00D76FWF2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Lazlo is bringing me a spare ECU in a few days just incase the new sensor doesn't do the trick.

 

[ELVIS]

I changed over the RPM sensor with a brand new one and have been riding about 2 weeks with no problems.
It seems to have fixed the problem, THANK YOU everyone for your suggestions.

Just for my education...
Is anyone able to explain why the previous RPM sensor was only having trouble in the first few minutes of starting the bike though?

[Chuck in Indiana]

^^^^^
No. 
Ron has a similar "weird" issue.. that may or may not be cured by the phase sensor. Some of this stuff is not to be understood. <shrug>