Battery problems

[EV11Jack]

Hi all, I have a 1998 EV-11 with 51,000 miles. I bought it about 1 1/2 years ago. A few days after buying it I was riding to work, about 10 miles and it just shut down. I trailered it to a local Moto Guzzi dealership. Their diagnosis indicated that the charging system wasn't working. So I authorized replacement of the following: alternator, regulator & rectifier. Everything seemed to be fine & it started & ran well after that. Last fall the battery seemed weak when starting. Since I didn't know the batteries' history & I was putting it in to a shop for some work over the winter (I'm in New York, so riding season was effectively over), I asked them to put a new battery in for me also. None of the work they were doing had anything to do with the battery or charging system. They were to adjust the valves, sync the throttle bodies, new spark plugs & flush the fuel system.
I keep it on a Battery Tender at all times.
Here's my problem: It starts fine but when I started it, I didn't leave the choke on long enough and it stalled. I hit the starter and NOTHING. It only clicked as if the battery was dead. It didn't even turn over slowly...just clicked. I connected the battery tender and kept it that way for two days. The tender showed green. I hit the starter today & it started. I ran it for a minute or so & shut it off. I hit the starter again and again, NOTHING. It only clicked again.
I'll be happy to hear any suggestions and ideas as to where to look and what the problem may be.
Thanks for your usual terrific support and advise!
Cheers, Jack

[rodekyll]

I'd start by running a jumper wire from the battery + to the spade connector on the starter solenoid.  If you touch the jumper to the spade and the starter works normally, the problem isn't the starter, battery, or starter wiring/connectors.  It will be in the starter button, ignition switch, starter relay (or lack thereof).

If the starter still doesn't spin up it's the voltage, bad main lead (+/-) from the battery or a funky starter.  If it's a Valeo starter from that era it may have come apart internally.

Put a voltmeter on it.  I don't understand why a voltmeter isn't standard on these bikes. 

[pehayes]

Oh, man, this is so wide open!
Why did you have someone shotgun the entire charging system without diagnosing the specific part at fault?  You have now introduced a stack of variables.  There are lots of components involved in starting and charging.  Remote diagnosis is going to be tough.

First, get a cheap volt meter and hit the terminals of your battery and report back your finding.  12 v sucks.  A good battery standing at full charge should be 12.6 or nearby.

Second,  get the bike started and rev gently to 3K rpm.  You should now be reading something north of 13.6 at the battery posts which would indicate the alternator and regulator are doing their job.

Third, grab and twist every cable you can at both ends.  The grounding cable is suspect where it meets the transmission mounting.  Both of the battery post cables are suspect until inspected.

Fourth, the most common electrical failure for the 98EV is the weak and erratic voltage regulator.  Better ones are available from EuroMotoElectric.

Fifth, what is your brand and technology of battery?  Please don't use a flooded cell battery for this bike.  Pay the extra and install an AGM class battery to protect the electronics and connections.

Sixth, for temporary testing.  Build a jumper pigtail wire for the starter.  Perhaps two feet?  18ga is probably enough.  Female spade at one end and an inch of stripped core at the other.  You'll have to remove and leave off the chrome bling cover for the starter solenoid.  When the system fails to crank, pull off the small spade terminal at the back end of the starter solenoid.  Attach your pigtail.  Take the loose bare end and jam it firmly onto the positive battery post.  Doing so bypasses the starter relay.  CAUTION:  there will be sparks but ignore them.  Wear gloves.  If it fails to crank then you have a bogus battery or a bogus starter.  If it does crank, then you probably have a bogus starter relay.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[EV11Jack]

Hi Patrick,
Thank-you very much! This gives me a lot to work on, on a cold Sunday afternoon. I really appreciate the advise & guidance from you & rodekyll!
Cheers, Jack

[EV11Jack]

Hi Patrick & Rodekyll,
I got some time to start working my way through your suggestions. Since rodekyll's reply came in first, I started there, but not before running through Pete's trouble shooting recommendations. Here is what I've discovered:
1) battery voltage (taken directly across the terminals) is 12.74v. As a side note, I have a Battery Tender cable wired directly in to the battery terminals. That way I don't have to remove my seat every time I finish riding to connect the tender with the alligator clips. I thought that If I put the volt meter leads into the battery tender cable, it would read the battery voltage. Zero! I am still confused by this as when I took off the seat and put the test leads directly onto the battery terminals, it reads 12.74v. I thought this to be odd.
2) I removed the cover over the starter and used a jumper from the + side of the battery to the terminal on the starter that is connected with the spade slide-on connector. The starter just clicks, just as it does when I hit the start button. This makes me think that the starter is shot. In looking at some books that I have, I'm supposing that its' a Valeo. Is it possible that I created this problem myself? I was riding the other day and had a car almost pull in front of me. I went to hit the horn and mistakenly hit the starter button. I was not in a panic, but VERY anxious. So, without hearing my horn, I'm sure that I held my thumb on the starter much longer than I should have. I eventually realized what I had done and recognized the noise that the poor starter was making. Could this action destroy my starter?
Since the bike won't start at all any more, I wasn't able to try the suggestions from Pete, suggestions #2 and above.
Do you agree with me that it's the starter and it needs to be replaced or re-built?
What do you suggest as to replacing it? Are re-built starters even available or should I plan on buying a new one? Are new starters available?
As usual, I really appreciate your help, suggestions and support!
cheers,
Jack

[rodekyll]

I'm sidestepping the battery tender oddness.  I don't know what you're using between the battery and the tender.


You could go straight to a bench test of the starter -- basically, remove it from the bike, clamp it down, put a battery cable FROM A KNOWN GOOD BATTERY to the flange for ground and another to the big solenoid post -- and then a jumper to the spade.  The starter will either spin up or not.

Or you could use a volt meter at the big starter post to compare resting voltage to cranking voltage.  If there is a huge voltage drop when you hit the starter button and no crank, you've got either high electrical resistance or excessive mechanical friction OR you've got a battery with just a surface charge.  If there is little or no voltage drop you've got bad wiring/terminal connections or a bad solenoid.

If you engage the button and the starter starts spinning when you whack the solenoid with a hammer/wrench/big rock then the starter has "sticktion".

[pehayes]

The Tender cable results are odd.  I think that cable has an inline fuse in it.  Check the fuse.  You might have blown that and  thus your Tender is not actually charging the battery.  Allowing for marginal cable loss, your reading at the battery terminals should be the same as at your Tender connection.

Test the battery voltage.  While doing so, turn on the key and hit the starter button.  You will get a lower battery reading when you add the headlamp draw and a further reduction when you energize the starter.  Report results.

The Valeo starters are known for breaking loose internal magnets.  They can be re-glued if nothing internal has been damaged.  Anyone nearby where you could borrow and test with a known good starter?

This requires sensitive hearing or feel.  When you hit the starter button and get a click, is that click coming from the starter relay under the right sidecover, or is that click coming from the body of the cylindrical starter solenoid, or is that click coming from within the body of the starter structure itself?

When you hit the starter button, it activates the starter relay and closes that momentary relay.
When the starter relay closes, it provides current to operate the solenoid.  The internals of the solenoid move and do two things.  First, the solenoid, via a lever, thrusts the pinion gear forward to engage with the ring gear on the flywheel.  Second, once the pinion is thrust forward only then do contacts within the solenoid begin to provide current directly into the starter to make it spin.

Look at the back of the solenoid. It has two, large, threaded terminals.  The upper one receives a power cable direct from the battery.  The lower one leads into the inside windings of the starter.  Use your test meter to test the voltage at the upper threaded terminal of the solenoid.  It should be the same as battery voltage.  Now test for voltage at the lower threaded terminal.  It should be zero.  Hit the starter button and see if power arrives at that lower terminal.  If not, then the solenoid is not connecting internally.  I can be cleaned, repaired, replaced.  If power does arrive at that lower threaded terminal then there is either a weak ground somewhere or there is a fault within the starter body itself.

Report back.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[OldMojo]

From the Stupid Things I've Done Department:

There are several ground wires going to the negative battery post. It's ridiculously easy for one to fall down over the side of the battery unnoticed when doing something like, say, attaching a battery tender pigtail.

The result is compromised grounding path and random electrical gremlins.

[Wayne Orwig]

I removed the cover over the starter and used a jumper from the + side of the battery to the terminal on the starter that is connected with the spade slide-on connector. The starter just clicks, just as it does when I hit the start button. This makes me think that the starter is shot.

May be a weak starter, battery, or ground cable. Check the connections at the battery, the starter, and the engine ground connection. Measure the battery voltage at the same time that you manually activate the starter and tell us what it is. It would be rare to kill a starter in that way, but it can be done.

Also measure the battery voltage with the headlight on versus off.

I am convinced that continuous battery tender use tends to dry our batteries.

Also, check the fuse in the tender cable.

[John A]

I put a relay in the circuit so when the starter button is pushed it operates the relay to close the contact on the solenoid via the brown wire that comes from the stock relay to the solenoid. Its not really the most elegant solution but I was on a rainy three day trip and it worked so well Ive just left it. Its just one of those 1" square 30 amp lights or horn relays.

[ejs]

 
Starter solenoid is not moving as long as it should. The contact at end of  travel, Clean it 😀.  I wacked the starter with a hammer and it engaged.
Test that.😀Two years later I har to exchange starter. Bought a cheap Alanko 439916 starter from Germany. (Same as the Valeo )�

[antmanbee]

I replaced my starter on my Jackal a year and two months ago with this .

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B002GO6P52

Working great so far and only $68.  I didn't want to spring for the $200+ for the Valeo. considering it only lasted 24K miles. Magnets came off.

[giusto]

I've been through similar myself...not hijacking the thread....but this site and the folks on it are freakinamazing....c ouldn't imagine a better resource. ...You are in the best of hands.

 BTW my issue was a crappy ground connection.

btw Dave...voltmeter  :1:

how does that saying go?  "Moto Guzzi, Making electricians out of motorcyclists' since 1921"

[EV11Jack]

I'm sidestepping the battery tender oddness.  I don't know what you're using between the battery and the tender.


You could go straight to a bench test of the starter -- basically, remove it from the bike, clamp it down, put a battery cable FROM A KNOWN GOOD BATTERY to the flange for ground and another to the big solenoid post -- and then a jumper to the spade.  The starter will either spin up or not.

Or you could use a volt meter at the big starter post to compare resting voltage to cranking voltage.  If there is a huge voltage drop when you hit the starter button and no crank, you've got either high electrical resistance or excessive mechanical friction OR you've got a battery with just a surface charge.  If there is little or no voltage drop you've got bad wiring/terminal connections or a bad solenoid.

I've also tried tapping (hitting with a wooden mallet) and it doesn't do anything. I've done this before in a car so I knew what I was expecting...but no luck.
If you engage the button and the starter starts spinning when you whack the solenoid with a hammer/wrench/big rock then the starter has "sticktion".

Hi rodelyll, Finally got some time to work on it today. I went to the voltmeter method that you suggested. With the meter on the positive side of the battery to the large post on the starter solenoid, it reads 12.58v. When I hit the starter (which, by the way, it no longer "clicks"), the voltage reads 7.88v.
I also put the meter between the large post and the spade terminal and it read the same as the battery terminals of 12.74v.
For what it's worth I checked the fuse on the Battery Tender cables that are hard wired to the battery. The fuse was open. I have a second set of cables that attach with alligator clips. I checked the fuse in them and it's good, so I'm using them to charge the battery currently, but is already reads 12.74v.
I'm picking up spare fuses this afternoon, but that still doesn't have anything to do with no "non-starting" issue.  I'm still of the belief that the starter is shot, but before spending that type of money I really want to be sure. I just got laid-off last month, and my daughters transmission went out in her truck so that'll cost me $2500. I understand that a starter will probably be around $200. I just want to be sure that if I buy one, that will correct my problem.
I've had others offer suggestions also, so I'm going to reply to each one and what the outcome was of their suggestions.
thanks for your help!
cheers,
Jack
Any additional thoughts or suggestions?

[rodekyll]

That's one crapload of voltage drop there.  Either the starter is stalled completely, the engine is seized, the wiring/connections/posts is/are extremely ratty, or the battery is sulfated.

One way to isolate that is to put the voltmeter on the battery posts and turn everything on.  If the voltage takes a big dump, it's not the starter.

[EV11Jack]

The Tender cable results are odd.  I think that cable has an inline fuse in it.  Check the fuse.  You might have blown that and  thus your Tender is not actually charging the battery.  Allowing for marginal cable loss, your reading at the battery terminals should be the same as at your Tender connection.

Test the battery voltage.  While doing so, turn on the key and hit the starter button.  You will get a lower battery reading when you add the headlamp draw and a further reduction when you energize the starter.  Report results.

The Valeo starters are known for breaking loose internal magnets.  They can be re-glued if nothing internal has been damaged.  Anyone nearby where you could borrow and test with a known good starter?

This requires sensitive hearing or feel.  When you hit the starter button and get a click, is that click coming from the starter relay under the right sidecover, or is that click coming from the body of the cylindrical starter solenoid, or is that click coming from within the body of the starter structure itself?

When you hit the starter button, it activates the starter relay and closes that momentary relay.
When the starter relay closes, it provides current to operate the solenoid.  The internals of the solenoid move and do two things.  First, the solenoid, via a lever, thrusts the pinion gear forward to engage with the ring gear on the flywheel.  Second, once the pinion is thrust forward only then do contacts within the solenoid begin to provide current directly into the starter to make it spin.

Look at the back of the solenoid. It has two, large, threaded terminals.  The upper one receives a power cable direct from the battery.  The lower one leads into the inside windings of the starter.  Use your test meter to test the voltage at the upper threaded terminal of the solenoid.  It should be the same as battery voltage.  Now test for voltage at the lower threaded terminal.  It should be zero.  Hit the starter button and see if power arrives at that lower terminal.  If not, then the solenoid is not connecting internally.  I can be cleaned, repaired, replaced.  If power does arrive at that lower threaded terminal then there is either a weak ground somewhere or there is a fault within the starter body itself.

Report back.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Hi Patrick, Finally got time to work on it this afternoon. You are right, the in-line fuse on the Battery Tender is open. I'm getting new fuses this afternoon.
The voltage across the battery is 12.74v. With the headlight turned on, the voltage drops to 12.52. When I hit the starter button (the starter no longer clicks) and the voltage across the battery terminals drops to 7.88v.
All of the ground connections appear and feel tight. I'm seeing our third Nor' East storm coming is this afternoon. I'm in New York, on Long Island. It's our third in two weeks. Great March so far. But I'm aware that warmer weather is just around the corner so I'm anxious to get this fixed because I'll soon see other riding while I'm still sitting on my bum on my garage floor.
Any additional thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.
cheers,
Jack

[fotoguzzi]

. When I hit the starter button (the starter no longer clicks) and the voltage across the battery terminals drops to 7.88v.
 

that's pretty low, I think you need a new battery.

[EV11Jack]

Starter solenoid is not moving as long as it should. The contact at end of  travel, Clean it 😀.  I wacked the starter with a hammer and it engaged.
Test that.😀Two years later I har to exchange starter. Bought a cheap Alanko 439916 starter from Germany. (Same as the Valeo )�

Hi ejs, I"ve hit it with a wooden mallet, but without success. Thanks for the information about the Alanko. I'll definitely keep it in mind if I need to replace the starter.
cheers,
Jack

[EV11Jack]

I replaced my starter on my Jackal a year and two months ago with this .

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B002GO6P52

Working great so far and only $68.  I didn't want to spring for the $200+ for the Valeo. considering it only lasted 24K miles. Magnets came off.

HI antmanbee, Thanks for the information. I will keep in in mind if all of my trouble shooting indicates that I need to buy a new one.
cheers,
Jack

[rodekyll]

Hi ejs, I"ve hit it with a wooden mallet, but without success. Thanks for the information about the Alanko. I'll definitely keep it in mind if I need to replace the starter.
cheers,
Jack

A wooden mallet doesn't transmit force like you need it to.  Use a small ballpeen or other metal-faced device.  You want a sharp rap, as opposed to "dead" blow.  It doesn't need to be hard, but it needs some tone to it.

[pehayes]

Find some other known good 12v battery.  Maybe borrow the one from your neighbors car.  You could just park real close to the motorbike.  Hook it up via jumper cables.  That will be your battery source and yours will simply become a buffer.  Hit the starter and test.  If everything works OK then you need a new battery.  If not then you'll have to start digging into the starter or wiring.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[pehayes]

If you are really brave, use some jumper cables to bridge across these two large terminals.  CAUTION: this is a lot of unfused power so don't touch anything else by accident.   It is going to be hard to get two jumper cable clamp ends in there.  You might have to be creative to extend the clamps.  Alternatively you could jumper directly from the battery positive with one end down to the INTERNAL of these two starter terminals.  Again, you must not accidentally touch anything else.  There will be SPARKS!  Doing this jump provides battery power direct to the windings of the starter motor.  The starter should spin but it will not turn the engine.  When doing this there is no function to thrust the pinion bearing forward into the flywheel ring gear (solenoid does that and you are not energizing the solenoid).  You are just testing the starter motor itself.  Don't write back if your bike melts!

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[guzzisteve]

that's pretty low, I think you need a new battery.

This               +1 Foto

[Howard R]

A game of "Musical Batteries" might be a good diagnostic at this point.  Do you have access to a friend/neighbor with another motorcycle?  Hook your FULLY CHARGED battery to that bike, even if it is not the same size or doesn't quite fit the battery space, just hook up the cables (or use jumpers) with the battery sitting on top.  If it spins the starter easily, your battery is good.  If possible, getting a car or truck within jumper cable range of the bike is also a good idea, if the bike starts right up that points the accusatory finger at the bike battery.  Heck, the bike battery is easily portable you could even take it to the car.  To avoid loosing the electronics memory in these new-fangled cars, first jumper cable the bike battery to the car battery positive terminal, and somewhere on the engine block.  Then disconnect the ground cable from the car battery.  If the car is in good working order, a bike battery will start the car, I've done it before (admittedly, with an Odyssey) in a car with a bad battery to get me to a shop to buy a new battery for the car.  Just reconnect the car ground cable before disconnecting the bike battery, to preserve the car's electronics memory.  I'll also mention that starting a car with the bike battery will need GOOD, heavy duty jumper cables.  I've seen cheap jumper cables made with too-small wire which wouldn't even start a car from another car.

From what I've read of your tests so far, I'm thinking a new starter is in your future.

Good luck!

Howard

[EV11Jack]

The Tender cable results are odd.  I think that cable has an inline fuse in it.  Check the fuse.  You might have blown that and  thus your Tender is not actually charging the battery.  Allowing for marginal cable loss, your reading at the battery terminals should be the same as at your Tender connection.

Test the battery voltage.  While doing so, turn on the key and hit the starter button.  You will get a lower battery reading when you add the headlamp draw and a further reduction when you energize the starter.  Report results.

The Valeo starters are known for breaking loose internal magnets.  They can be re-glued if nothing internal has been damaged.  Anyone nearby where you could borrow and test with a known good starter?

This requires sensitive hearing or feel.  When you hit the starter button and get a click, is that click coming from the starter relay under the right sidecover, or is that click coming from the body of the cylindrical starter solenoid, or is that click coming from within the body of the starter structure itself?

When you hit the starter button, it activates the starter relay and closes that momentary relay.
When the starter relay closes, it provides current to operate the solenoid.  The internals of the solenoid move and do two things.  First, the solenoid, via a lever, thrusts the pinion gear forward to engage with the ring gear on the flywheel.  Second, once the pinion is thrust forward only then do contacts within the solenoid begin to provide current directly into the starter to make it spin.

Look at the back of the solenoid. It has two, large, threaded terminals.  The upper one receives a power cable direct from the battery.  The lower one leads into the inside windings of the starter.  Use your test meter to test the voltage at the upper threaded terminal of the solenoid.  It should be the same as battery voltage.  Now test for voltage at the lower threaded terminal.  It should be zero.  Hit the starter button and see if power arrives at that lower terminal.  If not, then the solenoid is not connecting internally.  I can be cleaned, repaired, replaced.  If power does arrive at that lower threaded terminal then there is either a weak ground somewhere or there is a fault within the starter body itself.

Report back.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Hi Patrick, I've followed your directions and here are the results:I don't have anyone to ride with as I've been off the road for 30+ years, so I don't have a starter that I can borrow. When I hit the starter, I can feel that the clicking is coming from the solenoid (back of the starter motor). (Thanks for the lesson on how everything works. I now have a better understanding of what is going on, or should be going on. It was very helpful). The voltage measured at the battery is the same as the reading from the battery to the big post on the back of the solenoid. The voltage on the lower stud is zero. When I hit the start button, the voltage doesn't change, it remains @ zero. Actually the digital meter put is a negative sign (-).
 I put a new fuse in the cables to the Battery Tender and charged it over-night. This morning the green light was glowing, indicating a full charge in the battery. Following another suggestion, I gave the starter a good rap with a ball pean hammer. Crossed my fingers and hit the starter. It turned over quickly. So quickly, I didn't have the choke on, or my hand ready to work the throttle. As you know, these are cold-hearted machines and need to warm up. Needless to say, it stalled and didn't stay running because of the above. I as happy and hit the starter button again...NOTHING but clicking! I'm convincing myself that even though a new battery was just installed by a shop that did some other stuff for me over the winter (nothing electrical related...sync throttle bodies, adjust valves), that the battery has a bad cell or something. Then I begin to think about the Battery Tender. If a cell was bad, I would never get a green light on the Battery Tender. According to their documentation I shouldn't see a green light unless the battery was fully charged. I'm assuming it would not give a full charge if it had a bad cell. So, now I'm still confused as to where to look now, but I’m guessing that a new starter is in my future. Whaddya think?
Any additional thoughts?
cheers,
Jack

[flower_king001]

Do as Rodekyll stated here before you go any further:

You could go straight to a bench test of the starter -- basically, remove it from the bike, clamp it down, put a battery cable FROM A KNOWN GOOD BATTERY to the flange for ground and another to the big solenoid post -- and then a jumper to the spade.  The starter will either spin up or not.

[fotoguzzi]

I would take the battery to Batteries Plus or any good service station for a load test (it will be free), that will tell immediately if it's good or not. do not count on a green light on a battery tender, all tenders not equal or good to leave on all the time.. did this "new" battery sit for a longish period with tender on?

[pehayes]

I have had two AGM batteries show a Tender green light, measure 12.5 at the terminals, then instantly drop to 1.5 as soon as a tiny lightbulb load was applied.  It is one of the oddities of the AGM technology even though I highly recommend them for many other positive reasons.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Wayne Orwig]

If a cell was bad, I would never get a green light on the Battery Tender.

A Battery Tender is not a good battery load tester. In fact, I have a low opinion of their long term charge characteristics.

Get the battery load tested. From what you say, that is it.
Even quicker, connect jumper cables to a car or such and try it.

[Lannis]

We never ever want to believe that it's the battery.

And we NEVER want to own a simple load tester to test the battery!   

I have a simple resistance battery load tester hanging on the wall.   When I see a problem like this, the very first thing I do is hook it up, thumb the switch, and watch how the battery responds.   Takes 10 seconds.  If it will accept a 60 amp load for 10 seconds without the voltage dropping below 11 volts, then it's a good battery, no questions asked.

If it will NOT, it's a BAD battery, and you don't have to swap batteries in and out, or do a useless voltmeter check, or check to see if the headlight dims, or anything else.  You replace the battery and 9 times out of ten, your problem goes away.

But even very good, very smart people don't want to do that for some reason .... ?

Lannis